More mass shootings

[BIGUN 1,053]

jcd11235

***Put one or two or three (dependent on pop density for that school) highly armed veteran with tactical or combat experience on perimeter security who has children in THAT school. S/he will have a vested interest in ensuring nothing happens. Then advertise it.

How Does Israel Do It? They figured it out 40 years ago.

Yes, more yahoo wannabes with guns making challenges to troubled teens who feel desperate and need help. Not everyone thinks it's a good idea to have the police state you describe. Escalating he situation is rarely a good idea in the civilian world.

And yet again; you offer no solutions only target what I've said. What is YOUR suggestion? As you've seen in my previous posts; what can we do to prevent future occurrences while adhering to the second amendment?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

******Put one or two or three (dependent on pop density for that school) highly armed veteran with tactical or combat experience on perimeter security who has children in THAT school. S/he will have a vested interest in ensuring nothing happens. Then advertise it.

How Does Israel Do It? They figured it out 40 years ago.

Yes, more yahoo wannabes with guns making challenges to troubled teens who feel desperate and need help. Not everyone thinks it's a good idea to have the police state you describe. Escalating he situation is rarely a good idea in the civilian world.

And yet again; you offer no solutions only target what I've said. What is YOUR suggestion? As you've seen in my previous posts; what can we do to prevent future occurrences while adhering to the second amendment?

To start with, let's have some reasonable restrictions on assault weapons. They have near-zero legitimate civilian purpose that isn't performed equally well by a gun that isn't designed to rapidly kill people in close quarters.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 18]

You're stretching it a bit. Anyway, we're still looking at only 2%. And still the most deaths in a school shooting that occurred recently had nothing to do with an AR-15. The point is my friend, is guns aren't the issue. Soft targets and our culture are the issue. Hell man, I had more security at work than what most people have in schools today.

Going after the AR-15, when Browning and many others have guns out there that work just the same, is childish and ridiculous at best.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

jcd11235

*********Put one or two or three (dependent on pop density for that school) highly armed veteran with tactical or combat experience on perimeter security who has children in THAT school. S/he will have a vested interest in ensuring nothing happens. Then advertise it.

How Does Israel Do It? They figured it out 40 years ago.

Yes, more yahoo wannabes with guns making challenges to troubled teens who feel desperate and need help. Not everyone thinks it's a good idea to have the police state you describe. Escalating he situation is rarely a good idea in the civilian world.

And yet again; you offer no solutions only target what I've said. What is YOUR suggestion? As you've seen in my previous posts; what can we do to prevent future occurrences while adhering to the second amendment?

To start with, let's have some reasonable restrictions on assault weapons. They have near-zero legitimate civilian purpose that isn't performed equally well by a gun that isn't designed to rapidly kill people in close quarters.

You got the most ridiculous talking points down pat. I'll give you that!

By the way, I do hunt with my AR-15. And it's chambered in a caliber that is much more dangerous than the 223.


And a very many of my friends hunt with the AR-15 to too.

You really don't have to keep proving you ain't got a clue what you're talking about. But can if you want to!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[PhreeZone 15]

There is a difference between a single resource officer being on campus to deal with issues vs having full screening like what was proposed earlier. As evidenced by Florida even an armed officer onsite does not mean anything.

Most larger schools have a single campus police officer that they pay for at the high school level only. In this latest case there was one there too. One in California just stopped a mass shooting by overhearing some conversations, getting a warrant and finding the student had collected an AR, some hand guns and a few hundred rounds of ammo at home. These are sometimes funded at the national level via a few grant programs (one of which is being proposed at being cut via the latest proposed budget) and other times they are funded at the local level by cutting teachers to pay for it.

The sheer numbers do in fact show that its going to be that expensive even if you use your example of "1 or 2 local military per school". There are almost 100k school facilities nationwide when you break it down. At 2 or 3 per school thats 250,000 people that are needed. How many of those "Combat ready/experienced - highly armed vets" that can pass the needed back ground checks to be in the presence of youth all day are willing to work for min wage to be a security officer? None in this economy - they could be making real money anywhere else. You are looking at creating jobs at 30k per year for it or are you expecting them to volunteer their time to sit around all day for this service?

Is your thoughts to only install an officer in a "high risk" school? How do you identify those? What happens when one of those military vets goes on vacation or moves? Is the school now unprotected or do you have to bring in others to cover that gap? Who supplies the weapons? The ammo? The body armor?

Who has the liability for the vet if they injure someone accidentally? Who is conducting the assessment drills and auditing these guards to validate they are ready? Who pays for the recurrency training and on going education classes for these officers? Are they only charged with being the "front line in a shooting" or are they allowed to break up fights, arrange for discipline and coordinate with the court systems that resource officers do currently?

There is a reason that even most high schools only have 1 resource officer only and sometimes only get hem a few days a week and have to share them with another school- the cost to hire in a police officer is 50k+ due to all the extra training beyond just the academy that is needed. That officer makes more than most teachers with 8-10 years experience in the classroom do almost always.

Its a patriotic thought process to say that vets will set up and protect schools but there is nothing stopping them from going down and doing it today and yet its not something anyone does.

The type of people that this tends to attract are the same ones that join militias to be Walter Mitty- are those the ones that you want overseeing hundreds if not thousands of children every day?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BIGUN 1,053]

jcd11235

*********Put one or two or three (dependent on pop density for that school) highly armed veteran with tactical or combat experience on perimeter security who has children in THAT school. S/he will have a vested interest in ensuring nothing happens. Then advertise it.

How Does Israel Do It? They figured it out 40 years ago.

Yes, more yahoo wannabes with guns making challenges to troubled teens who feel desperate and need help. Not everyone thinks it's a good idea to have the police state you describe. Escalating he situation is rarely a good idea in the civilian world.

And yet again; you offer no solutions only target what I've said. What is YOUR suggestion? As you've seen in my previous posts; what can we do to prevent future occurrences while adhering to the second amendment?

To start with, let's have some reasonable restrictions on assault weapons. They have near-zero legitimate civilian purpose that isn't performed equally well by a gun that isn't designed to rapidly kill people in close

Non-solution solution. That'll make everyone feel good... but it doesn't solve a problem. Anyone can take a Ruger 22 or mini 14; put a cool looking polymer stock on it; get a 30 rd magazine and make it just as sinister as the devilish AR-15.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

And again nobody's replied to what has been the largest number of people killed in a school massacre ever in this country. And that happened in 1927 in Michigan. Did we have any AR-15s then?

I am, aware of that bombing. It's not relevant though, so just move on please.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[rushmc 18]

gowlerk

I am, aware of that bombing. It's not relevant though, so just move on please.

Sure it is relevant. The left always deals with numbers and emotion.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[gowlerk 1,912]

rushmc

***I am, aware of that bombing. It's not relevant though, so just move on please.

Sure it is relevant. The left always deals with numbers and emotion.


The emotion I see is from right wing zealots screaming about their "cold dead hands". Numbers? Yea, numbers. Numbers count dude. They matter. It's like science man. Numbers help you figure things out. You got a problem with numbers?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

Non-solution solution. That'll make everyone feel good... but it doesn't solve a problem.

Right. A non-solution that works in virtually every other developed western nation.

Being armed to the teeth is the feel good solution. It allows scared people to feel safer without being any safer (but that's okay because the fear was manufactured, anyway).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Public schools are one of the few public places where we do not have security today!

Well other than the armed police officer who was specifically stationed at the school and did nothing. Symbolic for what the US has done with regards to gun violence: Nothing.

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To finally see a leader, the president, who is addressing the real issue.

Yup changing the branding on the drills is really digging down into the meat and potatoes of it all. I also just read that he came up with another brilliant idea to combat school shootings. I mean this is stuff we have never seen before. He suggested there should be a ratings system on movies. An incredible visionary, who could have possibly thought of something like that?

Quote

That somehow guns in this country is a problem. No it's not! What's been happening to this country's been happening for the last 70 years and it's being pushed by the left.

Rush's answer to every problem: "it is the fault of the left".

Like I said, you are your own parody.

[millertimeunc 0]

billvon

>You should be frightened of your neighbor. You should be frightened of your coworkers.
>You should be frightened of everybody.

Fear sells guns. It's no wonder the NRA is so good at promulgating it.

One should immediately be suspicious of anyone or anything that tries to tell you how you "should" be feeling.

The best things in life are dangerous.

[kallend 1,623]

jcd11235

***Non-solution solution. That'll make everyone feel good... but it doesn't solve a problem.

Right. A non-solution that works in virtually every other developed western nation.

Being armed to the teeth is the feel good solution. It allows scared people to feel safer without being any safer (but that's okay because the fear was manufactured, anyway).

It appeals to males with small . . . hands.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/18692/the-truth-about-guns-self-driving-cars-and-saving-lives

Derek V

[rushmc 18]

gowlerk

You got a problem with numbers?

Nope
But you are too emotional...

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JoeWeber 2,299]

BIGUN

******Put one or two or three (dependent on pop density for that school) highly armed veteran with tactical or combat experience on perimeter security who has children in THAT school. S/he will have a vested interest in ensuring nothing happens. Then advertise it.

How Does Israel Do It? They figured it out 40 years ago.

Yes, more yahoo wannabes with guns making challenges to troubled teens who feel desperate and need help. Not everyone thinks it's a good idea to have the police state you describe. Escalating he situation is rarely a good idea in the civilian world.

And yet again; you offer no solutions only target what I've said. What is YOUR suggestion? As you've seen in my previous posts; what can we do to prevent future occurrences while adhering to the second amendment?

while adhering to the second amendment?

Bigun,

Some would argue that the second amendment is not being adhered to now; that the current interpretation is far too broad. Without question I am in that group.

I am far from anti-gun. Though I quit hunting decades ago, I still have my rifles and shotguns. Last year I picked up a Beretta 1301 for home defense, it being more suited for the purpose than a Wingmaster.

I don't have pistols because I believe very few people who don't practice regularly at the range, at night and lying on their bed after a few beers could hit their own feet in an emergency. Now, 9 .32 caliber bits of buckshot once or twice out of a short barrel with an open choke on the other hand.....

But I would accept regulation, background checks and even demonstrating proficiency (like a field sobriety test, for example) if it would save a single group of parents from what happened in Florida.

I almost wrote "might save" but apparently where regulations are imposed they work.

No one needs a military style assault weapon unless they have military assault style fantasies that need catering. To those who argue that hunting rifles operate the same way as AR-15's and there is no difference and yada, yada, yada, I say: then what's the problem with banning them? Get a Model 700 Remington.

Also, as someone who hunted for decades and who bagged 10 Bull Elk in 10 years I also say ditch your damn automatic rifle and learn to shoot instead. Critters don't shoot back, you know, and the only thing automatic about your rifle is the second shot because you missed or wounded it and shouldn't have pulled the trigger anyway.

The gun trend is fully in your favor at this point in history. How we are to where it's allowed for nincompoops to wander around in public openly packing Glocks or Assault Rifles is simply baffling. Where would the NRA declare victory? Will it be when we are all dressed in kevlar war suits and packing machine guns?

Seriously, if that doofus Trump doesn't blow us up instead, do you really believe a successful society a hundred years from now will be a fully armed society?

[gowlerk 1,912]

rushmc

*** You got a problem with numbers?

Nope
But you are too emotional...


I know you are but what am I?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[rushmc 18]

gowlerk

......... but what am I?

I think most you've already got that figured out...

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[yoink 321]

gowlerk

****** You got a problem with numbers?

Nope
But you are too emotional...


I know you are but what am I?

Stop taking the troll bait.

[BIGUN 1,053]

Morning, Joe.

You have a couple of salient points and a couple with which I respectfully disagree.

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I don't have pistols because I believe very few people who don't practice regularly at the range, at night and lying on their bed after a few beers could hit their own feet in an emergency. Now, 9 .32 caliber bits of buckshot once or twice out of a short barrel with an open choke on the other hand.....

But I would accept regulation, background checks and even demonstrating proficiency (like a field sobriety test, for example) if it would save a single group of parents from what happened in Florida.

Don't know if you read far enough back that I not only agree with these points, but would advocate more training than just shooting 50 rds at a target from 25 yards, patting them on the butt and calling it good for the next 5 or 10 years (dependent on state renewal options).

I would actually advocate a Close Quarter Combat (CQB) course in a MOUT environment. Let people see how well they do in a timed event (adding stress), with multiple friendlies & bad guys. Let them see their strengths and weaknesses and perhaps they'll realize that a one time visit to the range ain't going to get it. Require different levels of certification. Personal defense only, Defense of others, etc. That encourage people to go to the range more than even once a year for re-qual.

Quote

No one needs a military style assault weapon unless they have military assault style fantasies that need catering. To those who argue that hunting rifles operate the same way as AR-15's and there is no difference and yada, yada, yada, I say: then what's the problem with banning them? Get a Model 700 Remington.

This is where we'll have to disagree and because this is exactly what I was getting at in a couple of different threads. You just placed the exact same weapon in the hands of others what Whitman used in the University of Texas Massacre which Remington advertises as, "Top choice of elite military snipers, the Model 700 is un-equaled in tactical precision."

Joe, I'm just about to extricate myself from this discussion. Here's why I stepped in - I had hoped to capture some great ideas that were not too far extreme towards either side and package them up for sending to my State and National Representatives. A list of bullet items (no pun intended) of centrist perspectives that both sides could not necessarily embrace - but, would bring up talking points to move more towards a solution than an opposing, heels dug in, left/right perspective. Cause the same rhetoric from both sides will temper over time until nothing gets changed AND this too becomes a distant memory for everyone except those directly affected until the next one.

Points that are absolutes.

1. We are different than every other country and to our friends in Britain and Canada - we ain't you. Our 2nd amendment isn't going away. So, we have to keep that in mind as we move forward.

2. Banning assault style weapons - I simply don't understand how some can preach that banning doesn't work when it comes to marijuana and use the "look at how well that worked with alcohol" point of view thinks it will work here. Who decides what weapons get banned and how effective would that be? Someone intent on doing the kind of damage we've seen over the years is either, 1) not going to give a shit about what's banned, and 2) even if they could not get their hands on what's popular; would get something even more powerful that may not be banned.

3. Laws of banning have not only proven to not work. The original Gun-Free Zones Act was authored by Biden (Democrat); signed into law by Bush (Republican) overturned by the Supreme Court for the way it was written and again passed in its new & improved format and signed into law by Clinton in 1996. Since that time - it has been demonstrated the increase in school shootings has risen - we can't politely tuck that away. It's either a case worth studying and if ineffective; needs some overhaul. And, if it's effective; needs some overhaul. Hence, my proposition on Armed Campus Police Departments. And, then the question becomes, "How do we pay for it?" Well, in Oklahoma, we do it. Recently, there was an older kid walking up to an elementary school. Campus police mobilized by the onsite campus police officer; City police were called and mobilized and before he even got to the doors was absconded and within minutes - the parents were informed and the situation diffused. Again, before he even got to the doors. Turned out - he was bringing his kid sister's forgotten lunch. Again, before he even got to the doors.

4. In this country, we have a culture of "can't do." It's in this country's historical DNA. It's in our Constitution. There's a whole list of "can't do's" in it. Can't take away our right to own and bear arms, can't take our land, can't arrest for... can't take away our right to... Along with a multitude of "can'ts" interpreted by SCOTUS.. can't discriminate, can't...

5. After each mass shooting in the United States, many gun control advocates point to Australia, where a bipartisan coalition passed sweeping gun legislation that effectively ended mass shootings and dramatically reduced gun violence nationwide. More than 20 years ago, Australia had its own mass shooting, a devastating massacre in which a man with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire at a tourist destination on the Tasmanian peninsula killing 35 and injuring 23. Twelve days later, a conservative prime minister introduced the National Firearms Act, which banned the sale and importation of all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. Australia has no Constitutional provision to keep and bear arms.

But, the man who helped craft the National Firearms Act while serving in the Australian Parliament is now Australian ambassador to the U.S. - says that idea is "naive" when it comes to the U.S. Australia and the United States are completely different situations, and it goes back to each of our foundings. America was born from a culture of self-defense. Australia was born from a culture of “the government will protect me.” Australia wasn’t born as a result of a brutal war. We weren’t invaded. We weren’t attacked. We weren’t occupied. That makes an incredible difference, even today. Our histories are completely different. The U.S. had a horrendous civil war, with more casualties than every other war combined. We didn’t have that history. It really went to the core of what it means to defend your people."

In closing, I had hoped to pick the minds of those I respect in this forum to get some centrist solution suggestions. So far, all I have received is the same arguments against any proposal I've put out there with no real additions for consideration. I fear; we will again have the same conversation in the next two-three years if both sides don't come together for our nation's children.

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

We are different than every other country and to our friends in Britain and Canada - we ain't you. Our 2nd amendment isn't going away.

Those aren't close to absolutes.

There's nothing inherently different about the US, except that we have so many cowards afraid to go to the corner store unarmed.

The second amendment will almost certainly eventually go away, sooner rather than later if reasonable gun restrictions aren't enacted. Check with the Constitution you swore to defend to see how our friends in Britain and Canada could help make that happen.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[BIGUN 1,053]

So, again. Many words - no proposed solutions.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DJL 232]

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I would actually advocate a Close Quarter Combat (CQB) course in a MOUT environment. Let people see how well they do in a timed event (adding stress), with multiple friendlies & bad guys. Let them see their strengths and weaknesses and perhaps they'll realize that a one time visit to the range ain't going to get it. Require different levels of certification. Personal defense only, Defense of others, etc. That encourage people to go to the range more than even once a year for re-qual.

I have a friend who when we talk about gun control he's like talking to a brick wall. I took this same guy paint balling and he was shaking so badly that he could barely point the gun in the right direction. I would not want to be anywhere without a steel wall between us if he had an actual gun in his hand in a high stress situation.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 1,623]

BIGUN

1. We are different than every other country and to our friends in Britain and Canada - we ain't you. Our 2nd amendment isn't going away. So, we have to keep that in mind as we move forward.

Certainly below average in penis size. No doubt strongly correlated with above average fascination with guns.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

So, again. Many words - no proposed solutions.

As I said, reasonable restrictions are a good first step. They are known to be highly effective, even if not perfect, whether you're willing to acknowledge that absolute act or not.

Or you can continue with the intellectually dishonest claims that you've been making.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!