SkyDekker 1,122 #1676 February 22, 2018 airdvrCan we agree to separate the school issue from the gun laws debate? After 9/11 we fixed the airport issue pretty quickly. If by the "school issue" you mean school shootings, I am not sure how you separate that from gun issues. In my experience, many of those school shootings are being done with guns. I think the rest of your comment shows that the US simply has no interest in fixing any issues related to guns. These shootings will simply increase in frequency and severity over time. Of course the kids watching their friends and teacher getting murdered in front of their eyes are going to be voters. I think that once the old guard dies off, you are going to see a rather dramatic shift to the left. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,912 #1677 February 22, 2018 Wayne LaPierre and the NRA are starting to be a little concerned about the current shift in the political climate. But I'm sure they will use it to ramp up fund raising and pay themselves ever higher salaries and benefits. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/wayne-lapierre-cpac-speech-nra/index.html Quote "You should be anxious and you should be frightened" about the potential of another Democratic takeover of the House, Senate and White House. "If they seize power ... our American freedoms could be lost and our country will be changed forever," he said. "The first to go will be the Second Amendment." He conveniently omits the role played by the States in amending the constitution while he goes about his highly profitable fear mongering.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 910 #1678 February 22, 2018 SkyDekker***Can we agree to separate the school issue from the gun laws debate? After 9/11 we fixed the airport issue pretty quickly. If by the "school issue" you mean school shootings, I am not sure how you separate that from gun issues. In my experience, many of those school shootings are being done with guns. I think the rest of your comment shows that the US simply has no interest in fixing any issues related to guns. These shootings will simply increase in frequency and severity over time. Of course the kids watching their friends and teacher getting murdered in front of their eyes are going to be voters. I think that once the old guard dies off, you are going to see a rather dramatic shift to the left. In the US today 56% of households don't have guns. 26% of voters would vote to ban ALL gun possession. On the pro gun side about 10% of voters vote solely on the gun issue,the NRA vote for the lack of a better term.The middle ground is somewhere in between. Fox news,trump, the NRA, Marc, et al, want to separate school shootings, AR-15's, throw Soros, Liberals, HRC, into debate. Just to confuse the issues. Fox in the last couple days suggested that the liberal main stream media actually welcomes school shootings. Because it increases outrage about guns and increases their ratings. Background checks, bump stocks, bla,bla, bla will not solve any of the school shooting issues. Which is almost exclusively an American phenomenon. Marc, the NRA, trump and the RNC, all know this. They pander to a debate because they have no intent of giving up guns. For what they perceive as a slippery slope to the aforementioned 26% view. http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #1679 February 22, 2018 QuoteFox in the last couple days suggested that the liberal main stream media actually welcomes school shootings.For sure, school shooting are money in the bank for the NRA. It's occurred to me that if the US went too long without a mass shooting, the NRA might have to stage one themselves. However that is unlikely to be necessary, as Americans seem to step up to the task at frequent intervals. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #1680 February 22, 2018 Bump-stocks have always been prohibited in Canada. After the Las Vega massacre, Trump is mumbling about restricting bump-stocks. Why did the US gov't ever allow sales of a gadget that converts semi-auto rifles into (crude) light machine guns? Beyond "range toys" or "converting money into noise" I cannot see any practical use for bump-stocks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #1681 February 22, 2018 >Can we agree to separate the school issue from the gun laws debate? After 9/11 we >fixed the airport issue pretty quickly. We fixed the airport issue pretty quickly because AOPA is not anything like the NRA. "There is NO PROBLEM with airplanes! You can kill people with knives; why single out airplanes? Terrorists kill people; airplanes don't kill people. If you regulate anything, the terrorists win. It's only the plane-grabbers George Soros and Hillary Clinton who want to END air travel with their freedom-killing regulations. The answer to terrorism in the air is MORE airplanes and LESS security so the other airplanes can run into the terrorist-carrying airplanes." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #1682 February 22, 2018 QuoteBeyond "range toys" or "converting money into noise" I cannot see any practical use for bump-stocks. "Practical use" has nothing to do with it. Think "Walter Mitty fantasizing about being Rambo". Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #1683 February 22, 2018 "You should be anxious and you should be frightened . . "If they seize power ... our American freedoms could be lost and our country will be changed forever. The first to go will be the Second Amendment." Yep. Everyone remembers when Obama was elected and the Democrats had both houses; they immediately banned all guns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #1684 February 22, 2018 Quote"You should be anxious and you should be frightened . . "This quote nicely illustrates the corrosive effect of the NRA on American society. You should be frightened of your neighbor. You should be frightened of your coworkers. You should be frightened of everybody. You're all alone, no one will come to your aid, and the whole world is out to get you. Never sit with your back to the door, and never leave the house unless you can out-gun anyone you may encounter. Buy more guns! Buy them now! And then the gun manufacturers hand them a nice "donation". Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1685 February 22, 2018 GeorgiaDonQuote"You should be anxious and you should be frightened . . "This quote nicely illustrates the corrosive effect of the NRA on American society. You should be frightened of your neighbor. You should be frightened of your coworkers. You should be frightened of everybody. You're all alone, no one will come to your aid, and the whole world is out to get you. Never sit with your back to the door, and never leave the house unless you can out-gun anyone you may encounter. Buy more guns! Buy them now! And then the gun manufacturers hand them a nice "donation". Don I know people who when they go to restaurants will refuse to sit if their back is to the door. Not Ex LEO, not Ex Soldiers, not Ex Mafia. Just normal ass people who think they're in a movie."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,912 #1686 February 22, 2018 QuoteI know people who when they go to restaurants will refuse to sit if their back is to the door. Not Ex LEO, not Ex Soldiers, not Ex Mafia. Just normal ass people who think they're in a movie. My wife will always try to sit in the far corner if she can. Back to the wall. I always let her choose the "safest" seat before I sit down.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #1687 February 22, 2018 DJLSimple question to you: Why do other developed countries not have as much of a problem (per capita) as the United States? Simple answer: demographics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #1688 February 22, 2018 Hi Don, I'm replying to you because you are normal, not because of what you just posted. Anyway, I wonder about the people who say that the gun is just a tool, no different from any other object. They believe restricting the easy access to guns would just push would-be mass murderers to use other means. For these folks I have two questions: why do you think every military in the world arms their soldiers with guns, and why do we care if North Korea gets a nuclear ICBM? By the logic I have seen, militaries could save tons of money by issuing swords and knives instead of rifles and pistols. Also, can we agree that the phrase "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is directly analogous to "nukes don't kill people, nation-states kill people?" - Dan G Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #1689 February 22, 2018 gowlerk***I agree! It is great that the kids are exercising their free rights. The sad thing is they're being used by the left. Funded by George Soros and others to put on a spectacle at CNN another TVs shows use. When their usefulness is over they will be thrown aside just like everybody else the left is used. In the meantime... http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-02-21.html#read_more Oh yeah. Ann Coulter spouting off that the problem is all about immigration from "shithole countries". This garbage makes me puke. Edited to remove "f" word. Considering the quality of some posts I have to assume Marc is letting children use his account. Stop replying to him. He's trolling the shit out of you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #1690 February 22, 2018 >You should be frightened of your neighbor. You should be frightened of your coworkers. >You should be frightened of everybody. Fear sells guns. It's no wonder the NRA is so good at promulgating it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #1691 February 22, 2018 Don- Do you think that Canada and Europe would have a similar rate of mass shootings as the US if they had the same firearm laws as the US? Derek V Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #1692 February 22, 2018 billvon>Can we agree to separate the school issue from the gun laws debate? After 9/11 we >fixed the airport issue pretty quickly. We fixed the airport issue pretty quickly because AOPA is not anything like the NRA. "There is NO PROBLEM with airplanes! You can kill people with knives; why single out airplanes? Terrorists kill people; airplanes don't kill people. If you regulate anything, the terrorists win. It's only the plane-grabbers George Soros and Hillary Clinton who want to END air travel with their freedom-killing regulations. The answer to terrorism in the air is MORE airplanes and LESS security so the other airplanes can run into the terrorist-carrying airplanes." I don't think the NRA has a problem with metal detectors and/or properly trained and vetted armed personnel in schools. Just keep fuckin' that chicken Bill. Because obviously liberals don't care about protecting children.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,912 #1693 February 22, 2018 HooknswoopDon- Do you think that Canada and Europe would have a similar rate of mass shootings as the US if they had the same firearm laws as the US? Derek V I don't know what Don thinks, but I hope never to find out what would happen. In the US mass shootings are relatively new. At least on the recent scale. The basic gun laws are not new. But the culture war fight with the NRA and the explosion of sales is new. I'm guessing it would take some time for Canada to get that far down the slope to match your level of violence. But with your help, I'm reasonably sure we could get down there with you. Maybe we could have real "shoot outs" to decide international hockey games!Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #1694 February 22, 2018 QuoteIn the US mass shootings are relatively new. At least on the recent scale. The basic gun laws are not new I edited out the sarcasm. What has changed? If it isn't the gun laws, then the gun laws are the problem and more are not the fix. I don't that our gun laws are perfect, they do need improvement and more enforcement. But what else is the issue? People in the Europe and Canada have guns. What is the difference in the US? Derek V Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #1695 February 22, 2018 The only possible fix. http://newsthump.com/2018/02/15/national-rifle-association-calls-for-ban-on-schools/Never try to eat more than you can lift Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #1696 February 22, 2018 QuotePeople in the the Europe and Canada have guns. It is much harder to get a gun in Europe and Canada. Not impossible, but harder. And when you do, most European countries do not let ordinary citizens have the same types of weapons we can get in the US. I know no one wants to hear it, but the difference is the easy access to high power, high capacity, high firing rate weapons. - Dan G Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,912 #1697 February 22, 2018 QuotePeople in the Europe and Canada have guns. What is the difference in the US? The difference is the sheer number and easy availability. As spectacular as mass shootings are the real toll is in the steady day to day killings and especially suicides that all these weapons enable. No where else in the world do you get regular cases of children finding guns and killing other children. I could go on. But the point is that America so far is willing to accept the toll as the price of their freedom. NO OTHER COUNTRY IS WILLING TO PAY A PRICE LIKE THAT. And that is the difference.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #1698 February 22, 2018 HooknswoopDon- Do you think that Canada and Europe would have a similar rate of mass shootings as the US if they had the same firearm laws as the US? Derek VI'm fairly confident in saying the rate of mass shootings would remain much lower than in the US. It seems to me that most mass shootings involve use of semiautomatic rifles, commonly the so-called "assault rifles" such as the AR-15 (as one example). Canadian gun laws are very restrictive concerning handguns, any kind of rifle with a shortened barrel, fully automatic weapons, and military style semiautomatic rifles (so-called "assault rifles"). However it is easy to purchase semi-automatic hunting rifles, which are functionally the same as "assault rifles". There have been a few school shootings in Canada (though many fewer than in the US, even accounting for population), where the perpetrator used a hunting rifle such as a Ruger Mini-14 and a Beretta Cx4 Storm (link). These weapons are not banned because they are widely used in hunting, which is very popular in Canada. I believe high capacity magazines are banned though. One other thing that is different in Canada is that you have to pass a firearms safety course and be licensed in order to purchase a firearm such as a hunting rifle. There used to be a firearms registry but this was expensive and never helped to solve any crimes so it was abandoned in 2012 (except in Quebec I think). I think a licensing process could help in the US, as long as it wasn't used as an excuse to effectively ban firearm ownership, such as by never offering the safety course so no-one could get a license. I also do not think this would necessarily be a violation of the 2nd amendment, as long as the license is readily available to anyone who isn't already disqualified from gun ownership. After all, voting is a constitutional right and I had to register and prove eligibility (US citizen, live in the jurisdiction, not a felon) and I have to show ID when I get to the polling station. No-one expects to be able to walk into any polling station and vote without being registered and with no requirement to prove you are who you say you are, yet they expect to be able to buy any manner of firearm no questions asked (at least in the case of a private sale). This suggests that we have to look for other factors to explain much of the difference between Canada and the US. I mentioned some things I think might be significant in my other post. However I don't think this helps all that much when thinking about how to reduce violence involving the use of guns in the US. Overwhelmingly, Canadians who own firearms do so because they are hunters. In contrast, most Americans who own firearms never use them for hunting (I know some do of course), but rather they own them for protection. Americans are more frightened of their fellow citizens than their northern neighbors are. When I lived in Canada I would often not bother to lock the door to my house (though I am told things have changed in the big cities and this might not be wise any more). Fear feeds on itself, and we have lots of entities in the US (such as the NRA and certain political parties) that capitalize on that fear, exploiting it to their own advantage. The use of force to achieve ends is also more acceptable in the US (everybody identified with the "strong manly characters" in John Wayne movies for example). How do you go about changing the culture to the point where people no longer believe that they have to own guns because the world is full of evil people who want to do them harm? How long will that take, do you think? How long before mental health care is available to anyone who needs it, when they need it, regardless of ability to pay? In the meantime, what is to be done? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #1699 February 22, 2018 HooknswoopQuoteIn the US mass shootings are relatively new. At least on the recent scale. The basic gun laws are not new I edited out the sarcasm. What has changed? If it isn't the gun laws, then the gun laws are the problem and more are not the fix. I don't that our gun laws are perfect, they do need improvement and more enforcement. But what else is the issue? People in the Europe and Canada have guns. What is the difference in the US? Derek V One change was the sunset of the assault weapons ban in 2004. How many mass shootings were there from 94-2004 and how many from 04 to nowI promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #1700 February 22, 2018 DanGHi Don, I'm replying to you because you are normal, not because of what you just posted. Anyway, I wonder about the people who say that the gun is just a tool, no different from any other object. They believe restricting the easy access to guns would just push would-be mass murderers to use other means. For these folks I have two questions: why do you think every military in the world arms their soldiers with guns, and why do we care if North Korea gets a nuclear ICBM? By the logic I have seen, militaries could save tons of money by issuing swords and knives instead of rifles and pistols. Also, can we agree that the phrase "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is directly analogous to "nukes don't kill people, nation-states kill people?"Whenever I hear the "guns are just an inanimate object, they don't affect people's behavior" argument, it occurs to me that you don't need a parachute to skydive, people have landed in a box rig or giant net. How many people would keep on skydiving if they had to count on landing in a pile of empty boxes every time? It seems obvious to me that the availability of an appropriate tool (a parachute) absolutely has an effect on people's behavior. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
