DJL 232 #1651 February 21, 2018 QuoteSee how you frame the issue? "Gun related" Means exactly nothing. Give us the murder rate per 100K in those counties. That gives us an apples to apples comparison. If not, you still got nothing. It is not the tool dude. And it never will be. I'm really not sure if I should even continue on this but what do you think that "Gun related homicide" means?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #1652 February 21, 2018 It probably means one guy was showing off his huge biceps to another guy's girlfriend, so the second guy killed him with a spork. Happens all the time, and the liberal fake news uses it to skew the "gun" statistics. BTW, please stop engaging him. His is a waste of time. - Dan G Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1653 February 21, 2018 DanGIt probably means one guy was showing off his huge biceps to another guy's girlfriend, so the second guy killed him with a spork. Happens all the time, and the liberal fake news uses it to skew the "gun" statistics. BTW, please stop engaging him. His is a waste of time. Gun related suicides probably means that some liberal saw a gun and jumped off a bridge."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #1654 February 21, 2018 DJL***It probably means one guy was showing off his huge biceps to another guy's girlfriend, so the second guy killed him with a spork. Happens all the time, and the liberal fake news uses it to skew the "gun" statistics. BTW, please stop engaging him. His is a waste of time. Gun related suicides probably means that some liberal saw a gun and jumped off a bridge. Well, Japan, for example, has historically had a fairly high suicide rate. Much lower gun suicide rate because nobody but cops, military and Yakuza has guns. The US has a higher gun suicide rate in part because guns are readily available and in part because guns are a fairly effective and quick means of doing it. "Quick" is a part of it because suicide is often an impulsive act. Someone who takes a bunch of pills has a decent amount of time to change their mind and call for help. Once the trigger is pulled, it's usually over."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #1655 February 21, 2018 QuoteThere's no doubt that other countries are unique but the also have the same social disparities, poverty, drug use, history of firearms possession, gang issues, and mental health issues. There's no perfect fit but other countries DO deal with the same things we do. So again: Why do other developed countries not have as much of a problem (per capita) as the United States? I'll take a stab at this, based on my 32 years living in Canada and Europe, and 28 years living in the US. Of course these are generalizations, in no sense should they be taken to apply to every individual American or Canadian. In no particular order: 1. American culture is more authoritarian/militaristic than Canadian and European culture. Canadians and Europeans are generally more happy with a negotiated settlement to conflicts in which everybody wins something (even if they also may lose something), whereas Americans often seem to be most satisfied if they can force their opponent to submit. Americans tend to define "winning" in terms of their opponent losing (and the more complete or humiliating the loss the better); the concept of "win-win" seems unsatisfying. This is clearly seen in politics, where compromise has become an unforgivable sin, and where military force has replaced diplomacy as a negotiating tactic. 2. Americans tend to attribute personal success almost entirely to their own efforts, whereas Canadians and Europeans are more likely to recognize that the society in which they live presents them with opportunities that contribute to their success. As a result, Americans tend to see themselves as in direct competition with the people around them, whereas Canadians and Europeans are more likely to see their neighbors as collaborators, or at least not as threats to their success. 3. Because of (2), Americans tend to resent paying for things like public education, public health, and social safety nets, and do so only to the minimum extent possible. This leads to (4). 4. Americans tend to regard access to health care (including mental health care) as a commodity, not a right. As a result, access to care is limited if you are poor or if your job does not provide health insurance as a benefit. Individuals with serious mental health issues are much more likely to be unable to get or keep a job, and so they are likely to be poor and have no access to mental health care. The exception is if they commit a violent crime (which applies to a small minority of those with mental health issues, most of whom are more likely to be victims of crime than they are to commit a crime). The US prison system has become the default system for warehousing the mentally ill, but they often don't get appropriate medical care in prison, they are just shut away from society for a while and then they are released no better than when they entered prison. Everybody talks about gun violence as a mental health issue, but most do not want to pay the cost of treating people with mental illnesses. In Canada and Europe, mental health treatment is much more available, the poor are not excluded, and having a mental illness does not carry the social stigma and life-long repercussions it carries in the US. 5. Americans tend to define "success" as "financial success", whereas other societies place more emphasis on "being happy" regarding connections to family, friends, feeling that you are making a contribution to your community, and so on. Financial success is nice of course, but it's not as important to Canadians and Europeans to be doing better than all your friends/neighbors/family as it is to Americans. 6. Everybody wants status, in the sense of being respected by your peers. That is a basic human behavior. Because of (5) Americans define status in terms of money, more than Canadians or Europeans tend to do. In American culture, money brings you more status than you lose with antisocial behavior, even criminal behavior. A successful (rich) criminal is often admired for their willingness to do whatever it takes to succeed. Also to a surprising extent (to me anyway) just having your name known, without regard to why it is known, is seen as a source of status. Becoming famous is an end in itself, regardless of the reason. In Canadian and European culture antisocial behavior tends to cost you more in status with your peers, and this generally cannot be overcome by being wealthy. In some cultures, such as traditional Japanese culture, being convicted of a crime often leads to complete social ostracism, even by your own family. 7. America has a much higher income gap, and higher poverty rates, compared to other developed democracies. If you happen to be born at the bottom of the economic ladder, conventional routes to higher status (get a good education leading to a good job, for the most part) may not be as available as it would have been had you been born into a middle/upper class family. Often membership in a gang, and criminal activity such as dealing drugs, is a much quicker and more available route to status. So putting this all together: In American culture antisocial behavior such as aggression and even crime is more socially acceptable, even admired in some circles, if it buys you status in terms of money or just other people "respecting" (i.e. fearing) you. Americans tend to feel that they are on their own, not part of an interconnected society, so they tend to feel less responsible for what happens to other people, compared to Canadians and Europeans. If Americans feel their status is threatened (economically unsuccessful, socially unsuccessful) it's more acceptable to blame the people around you, who are more likely to be seen as competitors. Anger/aggression is more socially acceptable in America than it is in Canada or Europe. Now lets add in: 8. It's really easy to obtain firearms. I do believe that in the US, compared to other advanced democracies such as Canada and the US, you have a higher proportion of people who feel angry at their lack of status (either economic or social), tend to blame other people, and feel (or know) that they are on their own, disconnected from everybody around them. Added to the mix will be some people with similar anger issues compounded with undiagnosed or untreated mental illness. Most of those people will not go so far as to commit mass murder, but given the easy access to firearms some will. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1656 February 21, 2018 QuoteI'll take a stab at this, based on my 32 years living in Canada and Europe, and 28 years living in the US. Of course these are generalizations, in no sense should they be taken to apply to every individual American or Canadian. In no particular order: When I have these debates with my politically mixed group of friends I summarize that by saying that in 100-200 years America will be over it's Hollywood action movie approach to life and our raging hard-on for having a gun on your hip will be a thing of the past. I know you cover much more that than but it reminded me of the discussion."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #1657 February 21, 2018 GeorgiaDon I'll take a stab at this, based on my 32 years living in Canada and Europe, and 28 years living in the US. Of course these are generalizations, in no sense should they be taken to apply to every individual American or Canadian. In no particular order... Don You are being reasonable, thoughtful and rational. You are answering his "simple question" with an intelligent, detailed and (IMO) accurate answer. That is more than a "one-liner". You do realize that isn't allowed here, right? Seriously, that is probably the best answer I've seen in a while. Take away the guns (not possible, but hypothetically) and the attitude will remain. The carnage may decrease some, but it will become a 'victory to the strongest' sort of deal. Guns don't create violence, but they allow the weak to have force."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #1658 February 21, 2018 Quote Seriously, that is probably the best answer I've seen in a while. I think it is the best answer I've seen in a long time. Thank you for this. It doesn't let gun control off the hook, but identifies other issues that need solving as well. Derek V Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1659 February 21, 2018 wolfriverjoe ***I'll take a stab at this, based on my 32 years living in Canada and Europe, and 28 years living in the US. Of course these are generalizations, in no sense should they be taken to apply to every individual American or Canadian. In no particular order... Don You are being reasonable, thoughtful and rational. You are answering his "simple question" with an intelligent, detailed and (IMO) accurate answer. That is more than a "one-liner". You do realize that isn't allowed here, right? Seriously, that is probably the best answer I've seen in a while. Take away the guns (not possible, but hypothetically) and the attitude will remain. The carnage may decrease some, but it will become a 'victory to the strongest' sort of deal. Guns don't create violence, but they allow the weak to have force. Quote I think it is the best answer I've seen in a long time. Thank you for this. It doesn't let gun control off the hook, but identifies other issues that need solving as well. Derek V Exactly, and that's the common denominator I'm getting to. Yes, there are many traits in our country made of immigrants. We take the best and the worst from all over the world. Still you're mixing around "take away the guns" and "solving the problem" with the "attitude" and "the guns" so it's a bit of a convoluted paste. Sure, you're not going to MAKE people behave differently but we're also not a homogeneous society so you can't say that we ARE something to begin with. We're made up of many different groups with many different problems yet other countries DO have those problems whether it's mental health or machismo. The common denominator is still easy access to firearms, not some cliche of Budweiser, Guns and Jesus (My words for effect). Much of America is absolutely not like that outside of works of fiction and the target audience for gun violence within the age group of 15-25 is the span of a single generation away from living with gun reform. Nobody wants some apocalyptic scenario of taking away guns (even if a few idiots say that on C-SPAN) but a stringent form of gun control that keeps the weapons in the hands of those willing to abide by the law just as has happened in so many of the developed countries in the world. SO, what's so difficult about fitting our American desire for individual liberty, the ability to uphold laws, gun rights machismo, etc, into a vessel that keeps good people protected and begins the long process of burning away the huge stockpile of weapons this country has accumulated?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #1660 February 21, 2018 I think Florida's House has summed it up rather nicely today: After voting to refuse to debate a gun control bill, Florida's House voted to classify pornography as a public health risk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1661 February 21, 2018 SkyDekkerI think Florida's House has summed it up rather nicely today: After voting to refuse to debate a gun control bill, Florida's House voted to classify pornography as a public health risk. Ah yes, classic America. To those unwilling to figure out a middle ground it's very likely that the decision will be made for them when these children who actually have to go to class grow up and start making the decisions. If we cannot get to a middle ground then that decision will inevitably be very restrictive. Edited to add link: http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/374816-florida-house-votes-to-declare-porn-a-public-health-risk-within-an-hour"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,913 #1662 February 21, 2018 SkyDekkerI think Florida's House has summed it up rather nicely today: After voting to refuse to debate a gun control bill, Florida's House voted to classify pornography as a public health risk. I am literally cutting and pasting your post verbatim into my FB status right now.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1663 February 21, 2018 gowlerk***I think Florida's House has summed it up rather nicely today: After voting to refuse to debate a gun control bill, Florida's House voted to classify pornography as a public health risk. I am literally cutting and pasting your post verbatim into my FB status right now. Here in Virginia we're an open firearms carry state but when you buy alcohol you can't carry out of the store unless it's concealed in a bag."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #1664 February 21, 2018 Hi Dan, QuoteBTW, please stop engaging him. His is a waste of time. ^^^^^ This. While he may stay if we just ignore, so what. He is like pissing into the wind. We should just pay him no attention. Jerry Baumchen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #1665 February 22, 2018 SkyDekkerThere is simply no reason to believe Americans are more mentally deficient than other western societies. CounterargumentMath tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #1666 February 22, 2018 jcd11235***There is simply no reason to believe Americans are more mentally deficient than other western societies. Counterargument CNN is now as reputable as a drug dealer that deals to 12 year olds. Please, stop making yourself look ridiculous by posting anything from them!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1667 February 22, 2018 rushmc******There is simply no reason to believe Americans are more mentally deficient than other western societies. Counterargument CNN is now as reputable as a drug dealer that deals to 12 year olds. Please, stop making yourself look ridiculous by posting anything from them! So you're saying that isn't an accurate depiction of the election results?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #1668 February 22, 2018 DJL *********There is simply no reason to believe Americans are more mentally deficient than other western societies. Counterargument CNN is now as reputable as a drug dealer that deals to 12 year olds. Please, stop making yourself look ridiculous by posting anything from them! So you're saying that isn't an accurate depiction of the election results? I see you are another graduate of Bill's school of twistWhat I AM saying is anyone who pays any attention to CNN is deep in the eco chamber of lies. What they (CNN) are doing with the FL kids is despicable."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #1669 February 22, 2018 rushmc ************There is simply no reason to believe Americans are more mentally deficient than other western societies. Counterargument CNN is now as reputable as a drug dealer that deals to 12 year olds. Please, stop making yourself look ridiculous by posting anything from them! So you're saying that isn't an accurate depiction of the election results? I see you are another graduate of Bill's school of twistWhat I AM saying is anyone who pays any attention to CNN is deep in the eco chamber of lies. What they (CNN) are doing with the FL kids is despicable. Yeah, I'm aware of the echo chamber. I'm just giving you shit because the link was only a list of election result numbers and you referred to it as journalistic BS. I actually try to keep away from CNN and Washington Post because they're so anti-Trump that I get sick of hearing it. I missed the thing on CNN last night but I'm told it was something like a lawyer putting a child with a script on the witness stand. I think it's absolutely great that these kids are exercising their right to assembly, free speech, are active in searching for a solution but soon we'll see the networks drop them literally like yesterday's news."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #1670 February 22, 2018 I agree! It is great that the kids are exercising their free rights. The sad thing is they're being used by the left. Funded by George Soros and others to put on a spectacle at CNN another TVs shows use. When their usefulness is over they will be thrown aside just like everybody else the left is used. In the meantime... http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-02-21.html#read_more"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #1671 February 22, 2018 rushmcI agree! It is great that the kids are exercising their free rights. The sad thing is they're being used by the left. Funded by George Soros and others to put on a spectacle at CNN another TVs shows use. When their usefulness is over they will be thrown aside just like everybody else the left is used. In the meantime... http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-02-21.html#read_more Eins zwei drei vier eins zwei drei vier, eins zwei drei vier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #1672 February 22, 2018 QuoteThanks to our Second Amendment, the United States has fewer mass shootings per capita than many other developed countries, The saddest part is that you will blindly believe crap like this. You think CNN is a biased echo chamber and then parrot Ann Coulter. You are seriously your own parody. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #1673 February 22, 2018 SkyDekkerQuoteThanks to our Second Amendment, the United States has fewer mass shootings per capita than many other developed countries, The saddest part is that you will blindly believe crap like this. You think CNN is a biased echo chamber and then parrot Ann Coulter. You are seriously your own parody. The largest mass School murder happened in the US in 1927. Do you know what incident that was? I doubt it. I do not follow and Coulter often. As a matter of fact I rarely read her stuff. But this piece Rings true in many ways . And anybody that believes CNN is even close to Center is delusional Beyond description. And I am thankful the people like her can speak. I am sad and upset it's CNN, George Soros and all the other left groups coming in and using the school children in Florida to trying to advance a political agenda. It is sad disgusting and Despicable! And they will be thrown aside when their usefulness is done by CNN and all the rest. We've seen it happen in the past. And it's coming again."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #1674 February 22, 2018 Can we agree to separate the school issue from the gun laws debate? After 9/11 we fixed the airport issue pretty quickly.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,913 #1675 February 22, 2018 rushmcI agree! It is great that the kids are exercising their free rights. The sad thing is they're being used by the left. Funded by George Soros and others to put on a spectacle at CNN another TVs shows use. When their usefulness is over they will be thrown aside just like everybody else the left is used. In the meantime... http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-02-21.html#read_more Oh yeah. Ann Coulter spouting off that the problem is all about immigration from "shithole countries". This garbage makes me puke. Edited to remove "f" word. Considering the quality of some posts I have to assume Marc is letting children use his account.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites