More mass shootings

[Hooknswoop 19]

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CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE

No.

Derek V

[DanG 1]

In Doug's system clearly the FFL dealer who sold the gun would have to keep a record. If all sales go through an FFL, then every gun has a paper trail. Yes, grandfathered guns would have to be dealt with, but they would either disappear over time, or if they proved to be persistent, they wouldhave to be registered.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

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You keep missing my point. Without a gun registry that proves who bought what guns, you are not going to convict anyone. I have several firearms without serial numbers, legally.

Apparently we are going to have to disagree on this point.

Out of curiousity, are your unserialed weapons antiques? If not, can you explain how they don't have serial numbers?

- Dan G

[Hooknswoop 19]

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they wouldhave to be registered.

I am not going to register my firearms.

Derek V

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Apparently we are going to have to disagree on this point.

Out of curiousity, are your unserialed weapons antiques? If not, can you explain how they don't have serial numbers?

Check out 80% lowers.

Derek V

[billvon 2,395]

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Also, thanks for proving what I suspected all along. You aren't interested in making any changes at all. You've set the bar at, "doesn't restrict any freedom that I or anyone else currently enjoy, whether Constitutionally protected or not."

Yeah, that's his game, and it's why I have sort of given up discussing things with him.

He starts with "I am open to trying to solve the problem" followed by ten pages of discussion, followed by "I am not willing to make any changes that affect me in any way." I've learned that you can basically skip the ten pages of discussion; saves a lot of typing.

(OTOH watching the discussions from other people is often interesting; it's easy to get into a "news bubble" where you see a two dimensional, rather than three dimensional, discussion.)

[DanG 1]

I understand the resistance to a gun registry. I really do.

I used to be staunchly pro-2nd Amendment. Unfortunately I am realizing more and more that supposedly responsible, law abiding gun owners are anything but, and the systems we have in place to protect the public from gun violence don't work. I find myself drifting away from my pro-gun rights beliefs with every dead child, concert attendee, or battered spouse.

- Dan G

[rifleman 61]

Hooknswoop

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Unreported lost weapons used in a crime result in a higher penalty to include the loss of a firearms license.

How are you going to prove that Glock was mine? There are no records. This is my point about the universal background check being required. Unless you have a database that shows who owns what firearms, you cannot prove that firearm ever belonged to me (or whomever).

Derek V

In the UK, your firearms certificate (FAC) has your picture on it and lists all the details of all firearms in your possession including serial numbers. You have to produce the FAC to purchase both guns and ammunition and , in order to acquire a new firearm you have to show "good reason" for wanting one (BTW self defence is not considered good reason in the UK).

Attached is a copy of the form used to apply for, amend or renew the FAC.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

FAC application.pdf

[DanG 1]

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Check out 80% lowers.

Interesting. That law seems to have no purpose other than to make weapons hard to track. Besides the Obama coming for your guns argument, what is the point?

- Dan G

[Hooknswoop 19]

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He starts with "I am open to trying to solve the problem" followed by ten pages of discussion, followed by "I am not willing to make any changes that affect me in any way."

That is how you hear it. That is not true. I am open to solving the issue. I am not open to gun control that will make little, if any difference.

Derek V

[DJL 232]

Hooknswoop

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE

No.

Derek V

Then you're done here. Just say that dead children is the price of how you arbitrarily want the 2nd Amendment to be administered and move on to something else.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[wmw999 2,120]

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I used to be staunchly pro-2nd Amendment. Unfortunately I am realizing more and more that supposedly responsible, law abiding gun owners are anything but, and the systems we have in place to protect the public from gun violence don't work.

This is probably true of a lot of people. I'm not nearly as pro-2nd as I used to be (and I was always a moderate). Just as minorities will eventually no longer be minorities (just as the Irish finally became just like everyone else), eventually enough people will be interested in "doing anything" that the result will be more than would have happened if an actual discussion were happening now.

Consider that in the 1970's the Republicans proposed a national health plan. It was rejected as being too conservative. It was way less conservative than Obamacare. The same may be happening with gun control now. If the 2nd is amended, how far will the amendment go?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Interesting. That law seems to have no purpose other than to make weapons hard to track. Besides the Obama coming for your guns argument, what is the point?

Ya, that is another change that should be made. The point is to be able to make your own firearm. Probably should go the way of bump stocks.

Derek V

[wmw999 2,120]

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Just say that dead children is the price of how you arbitrarily want the 2nd Amendment to be administered and move on to something else

Well, actually, he is on the record as saying that it's the price of the second, and that he doesn't like the price, but thinks the freedom is worth it. And then moves on to equating gun deaths with traffic deaths.

The first is intellectually honest to me. Some things are worth the cost. The second isn't; the general good isn't benefited as much by ready access to firearms as by ready access to transportation. Also, there are a lot of controls on transportation, with varying degrees of effectiveness. After all, who here NEVER speeds on an open road?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Perhaps the answer is right there in the 2nd amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Keeping and bearing arms will earn you membership in a well regulated state militia. You have to show up for training and drill regularly (say, once a month). If you cannot participate in the well regulated militia, because you are insane, you can't keep your temper under control, you can't work alongside whites/blacks/hispanics/whatever, you can't hit the broad side of a barn door, you can't be bothered with basic firearms safety rules, etc then you get booted from the militia and can't keep and bear arms.

Maybe the well regulated militia can stand watch at schools?

I know, it would never work. Because reasons.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[nolhtairt 0]

billvon

>Ok...let's hear them.

Sure.

1) Ban sales to all violent criminals. Period. No 'exceptions' as exist now.
2) Ban sales to people who have been adjudicated to be mentally deficient.
3) Ban sales to convicted stalkers.
4) Background checks for every gun sale. Period.

5) Verify that legal gun owners have secured their weapons where it cannot get stolen or retrieved by their untrained kids.

[rushmc 18]

Hooknswoop

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE

No.

Derek V

Agreed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Hooknswoop

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE

No.

Derek V

Agreed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nolhtairt 0]

wmw999

You have a thought about something to do. Since most didn't jump all over it as the solution to everything, that doesn't mean that we all know what the right answer is.

But if armed guards aren't enough (as they weren't in this case), and mental health in general isn't predictive of violence (some subsets are), what besides adding more expensive and life-threatening non-teaching stuff to what teachers have to master can be proposed?

I posted a question before, about the fact that there was an armed guard at the Florida school. Would you really want your kids to go to a school with an armed guard at every door? Or do we start blocking off doors so that people can't come in? What do we do about fires?

The determination of something that might work lies in thinking through the downstream effects; costs, impacts on time, jobs, what has to be given up, and how much does it matter?

As rehmwa would have said, "for the children." But that's not really a good justification for a solution that's not well thought out

Wendy P.

The only solution to prevent shootings inside school buildings is to have double entrances, two sets of doors say 20 feet apart in an enclosed room, and a metal detector that automatically locks the inner doors when something is detected. However, the costs would be prohibitive, with bullet proof glass, reinforced door hardware, etc.

Nobody is going to approve tax increases to fund these. Want armed guards? Gotta pay them too.

Even then, if what I described above actually happened, gunmen will just wait until school lets out and kids walk out, or go to a sporting event for a high casualty count. You can't stop every shooting from happening. It's impossible the way things are.

[wmw999 2,120]

No, you absolutely can't stop every shooting from happening. You can possibly reduce the number. Maybe that's a goal.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gowlerk 1,905]

Yes, this thread would lead you to believe that the problem is simply mass shootings of students. But the reality is that the death count is nearly always raised by good old one at a time angry human shooting another angry human.

They don't get discussed here very much though. America's firearm problem is so much deeper than just the maniac with the AR-15. But those spectacular crimes are what will drive the movement for change.

Right this very moment someone, likely several people, are plotting how to out do the Vegas killer and the Florida school shooter. And laying in the weapons and ammo to do it. With each new atrocity the bar is raised. You can argue about guards in schools all you want. That merely makes them the first target that the killer needs to take out. Or some other crowd will do in a pinch. America is a "target rich" environment.

If the law requires you to register your weapons you will have a choice. Register or be a criminal. You'll do the right thing. Because you are not a criminal.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[rushmc 18]

wmw999

No, you absolutely can't stop every shooting from happening. You can possibly reduce the number. Maybe that's a goal.

Wendy P.

To eliminate them would be the goal Wendy. To reduce them would be a welcome outcome

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Gun confiscation requires a registry.

One need only look at Nazi Germany to realize that.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[yoink 321]

Hooknswoop

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE

No.

Derek V

cool.

Which is why change always has to be forced upon you instead of inviting you to be part of the discussion.

'A database would work but I'm not doing it!' YOU effectively just said that.

Bill's right. You pay lip service to wanting more safety but are unwilling to accept any change at all or propose any of your own. It's very easy to sit there and say no to everything, but the cost of that is that at some point people are just going to bypass or ignore you.

[rushmc 18]

DanG

I understand the resistance to a gun registry. I really do.

I used to be staunchly pro-2nd Amendment. Unfortunately I am realizing more and more that supposedly responsible, law abiding gun owners are anything but, and the systems we have in place to protect the public from gun violence don't work. I find myself drifting away from my pro-gun rights beliefs with every dead child, concert attendee, or battered spouse.

Your opinion here is evolving because you're blaming the gun. Not the culture. All the things that you think we should do could be done and it wouldn't change a damn thing.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln