Amazon 7 #176 June 28, 2015 masterrigWhat I am questioning is... why such a dramatic reaction to the massacre of Black people and a not so dramatic reaction to the massacre of White people in a theater or a school yard? Chuck The underlying hatred that motivated their murder is far different from the others.. they are not the same. I would say the murder of 9 Christians in their church and the reaction of their community in a rather Christian manner by not rioting for Jordans after that "shoting" is very instructive... and I suppose its a great dissappointment to those who expected different. The move to remove whaat is to them a symbol of hate... used by white supremacist haters for many decades.... The flag was taken away from what so many of our ancestors fought and died for and then changed into something evil for those with evil intent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #177 June 28, 2015 Amazon***What I am questioning is... why such a dramatic reaction to the massacre of Black people and a not so dramatic reaction to the massacre of White people in a theater or a school yard? Chuck The underlying hatred that motivated their murder is far different from the others.. they are not the same. I would say the murder of 9 Christians in their church and the reaction of their community in a rather Christian manner by not rioting for Jordans after that "shoting" is very instructive... and I suppose its a great dissappointment to those who expected different. The move to remove whaat is to them a symbol of hate... used by white supremacist haters for many decades.... The flag was taken away from what so many of our ancestors fought and died for and then changed into something evil for those with evil intent. What I'm trying to say is, in all cases, they were innocent people yet the deaths of the Black people gets more attention? Even though a whacko shooter is responsible in each case. I do see what you're saying, though. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #178 June 28, 2015 billvon>What I am questioning is... why such a dramatic reaction to the massacre of Black >people and a not so dramatic reaction to the massacre of White people in a theater or >a school yard? If a state was flying a flag that, at one point, represented a government that enslaved and killed whites, then I bet you would see the same sort of reaction if the opposite event had happened. Who knows. We can only 'suppose'. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #179 June 28, 2015 masterrig******What I am questioning is... why such a dramatic reaction to the massacre of Black people and a not so dramatic reaction to the massacre of White people in a theater or a school yard? Chuck The underlying hatred that motivated their murder is far different from the others.. they are not the same. I would say the murder of 9 Christians in their church and the reaction of their community in a rather Christian manner by not rioting for Jordans after that "shoting" is very instructive... and I suppose its a great dissappointment to those who expected different. The move to remove whaat is to them a symbol of hate... used by white supremacist haters for many decades.... The flag was taken away from what so many of our ancestors fought and died for and then changed into something evil for those with evil intent. What ?I'm trying to say is, in all cases, they were innocent people yet the deaths of the Black people gets more attention? Even though a whacko shooter is responsible in each case. I do see what you're saying, though. Chuck I'm not sure what you mean by that Chuck. The media circus that surrounded the Sandy Hook shootings made the Charleston incident look small in comparison. There were numerous prime time TV 'specials', huge shouting matches about gun control, even idiotic conspiracy theories that it never happened."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #180 June 28, 2015 masterrig I put it all off on 'political correctness'. I think the promoters of it have lost their damned minds. They take offense over the smallest, silliest of things and blow it way out of proportion. I'm sticking with one of my favorite Aunt and my favorite Uncle! I put it off on the same paranoid delusion as the 'war on christmas'. You poor, oppressed majorityDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #181 June 28, 2015 wolfriverjoe*********What I am questioning is... why such a dramatic reaction to the massacre of Black people and a not so dramatic reaction to the massacre of White people in a theater or a school yard? Chuck The underlying hatred that motivated their murder is far different from the others.. they are not the same. I would say the murder of 9 Christians in their church and the reaction of their community in a rather Christian manner by not rioting for Jordans after that "shoting" is very instructive... and I suppose its a great dissappointment to those who expected different. The move to remove whaat is to them a symbol of hate... used by white supremacist haters for many decades.... The flag was taken away from what so many of our ancestors fought and died for and then changed into something evil for those with evil intent. What ?I'm trying to say is, in all cases, they were innocent people yet the deaths of the Black people gets more attention? Even though a whacko shooter is responsible in each case. I do see what you're saying, though. Chuck I'm not sure what you mean by that Chuck. The media circus that surrounded the Sandy Hook shootings made the Charleston incident look small in comparison. There were numerous prime time TV 'specials', huge shouting matches about gun control, even idiotic conspiracy theories that it never happened. O.k., I can see that. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #182 June 29, 2015 A friend of mine gave me permission to share this. I thought if was really well stated. "My grandparents came to Ellis Island in 1923. My parents spent their entire lives up north. I spent 40 years of my life in New York and about 10 years in South Carolina. I’m a northerner. I don’t have a southern heritage. Slavery is not in my family history or even part of the area I grew up in. Actually, none of this is my history. I can’t relate to most of it. What I do know is I've met a ton of white southerners who over the years have expressed strong feelings about the Civil War, southern history, states’ rights, the Battle Flag, slavery, the whole gamut. As a researcher by nature, I took it all in. Depending on who you talk to, they see the flag as representing one of three things: One is their southern heritage. What the south had, and what it lost. Second, and most relevant to today, they see the flag as representing states’ rights. Without a southern heritage or a history tied to slavery, to me the flag represents states’ rights. Particularly that South Carolina had the guts to say, we are tired of being pushed around by the federal government, federal courts and federal politicians, and we are out of here. After last week’s federal court rulings that stomped on the states, the issue of states’ rights is more relevant now than ever. Finally, many southerners look at the flag as honoring their relatives who fought in the war, gave it their all, and lost everything. When I look at some of them today, I can see a bit of their ancestors that fought in the war. The lineage is surreal to an outsider like myself. I can’t think of one white southerner I’ve met and have come to know that sees the flag as a sign of slavery or racism or white supremacy. Obviously they are out there, but I would say they are few and far in-between. By and large I think most have forgotten the slavery angle of the Civil War and they’ve long accepted integration. Like I’ve said, I’ve had scores of conversations about the Civil War, the 10th amendment circa 1860, slavery, battles of the war, etc. I’m from New York. The racial tensions are so high there, you can count on the following chain of events whenever something occurs: An incident occurs, the political leaders and community activists jump in and play the race card throwing gasoline on everything and everyone, the media jumps in and throws a match on it all, profiting from a spike in viewer/ readers that follows. Protests start, and it culminates in street violence, clashes with the NYPD and then maybe a small scale riot. Just off the top of my head: Freddy’s Fashion Mart protest and fire, Gavin Cato’s death on a bicycle, Bernhard Goetz’s subway shooting, Howard Beach, Amadou Diallo sodomized by the NYPD, the list goes on and on. Entire political and community activists’ careers and organizations were built upon racial divisions and exploitation. You can see in Charleston there were some attempts to escalate these murders to protests to violence down on the ground, but it didn’t happen because the people of this state don’t see the state as strongly divided on racial grounds. As a result, racial division and unrest has not become an industry here like it is in New York City. If racism on both sides in New York City is a 10. Here I gauge it at a 4. So it is quite unfortunate, the national media has taken this flag controversy and used it to paint flag supporters and too often all South Carolinians as racists or white supremacists. That is an unfair characterization and simply untrue. If someone from NBC news asked me what I thought, I’d say, and how long have you lived in South Carolina? How many South Carolinians are you friends with? Once I got the deer in the head lights look, I’d tell them what I wrote above and say you are operating in a 1960’s time wrap and are clueless to sentiments today. Take your camera (lighter fluid and matches) back to New York, Chicago, Los Angeles or where ever you came from and go fix the problems up there. These people can handle this themselves. Here is a story that makes my point -- using 1960's photos, written by someone who works at the University of Illinois. Distort and amplify." http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/confederate-flag-always-racist-119481.html#.VZFQtVJ0zIVYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #183 June 29, 2015 Having lived the majority of my life in the south (Florida mostly, but also some years in Texas, Virginia, and Tennessee), I've never seen anything except the impression that the flag represented hate towards black people. It is a clear declaration of redneck racism by everyone flying it. If it's such a historical flag, why was that not defended against it's use for racism in the 50's and 60's? That might have helped the defense of it's "history", but no, they seemed to accept it's use for hatred IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #184 June 29, 2015 REGARDLESS of what it means to your friend, to many people it symbolizes treason, racism and the subjugation of one class of American. There are other flags that southerners could use to exemplify their heritage that aren't so obnoxious. The Gadsden Flag comes to mind.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #185 June 29, 2015 So a South Carolinian's opinion based on local observation and the more varied viewpoint of a transplant is less valuable because it disagrees with your opinion? I'm not seeing that. And many is a nonspecific value. Do you say most, a certain percentage? Based on what?You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Driver1 0 #186 June 29, 2015 futuredivotSo a South Carolinian's opinion based on local observation and the more varied viewpoint of a transplant is less valuable because it disagrees with your opinion? I'm not seeing that. And many is a nonspecific value. Do you say most, a certain percentage? Based on what? I believe, honestly, that the Confederate flag was perverted by White Power supporters starting in the 1950s when the Civil Rights struggle was just beginning. This is why it belongs in a museum, not flying over state government property.There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #187 June 29, 2015 The lack of support and defense for the flag when it was used for hate is very telling of why we are where we are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #188 June 29, 2015 Driver1***So a South Carolinian's opinion based on local observation and the more varied viewpoint of a transplant is less valuable because it disagrees with your opinion? I'm not seeing that. And many is a nonspecific value. Do you say most, a certain percentage? Based on what? I believe, honestly, that the Confederate flag was perverted by White Power supporters starting in the 1950s when the Civil Rights struggle was just beginning. This is why it belongs in a museum, not flying over state government property. +1 I found a great article stating just that... I will post it later. The Stars and Bars showed up on most of the Southern States as a FU to the Feds and the Civil Rights movement when Truman and Ike and a host of others started the demand an end to Jim Crow... and the institutionalized racism that had been promulgated in the post reconstruction era. I have as much right to that flag as heritage since I had numerous siblings to my 2nd great grandfathers who died fighting under that Battle Flag of Northern Virginia led by a cousin... Robert himself. BUT I want to see it only there as an honor to the dead on graves of those who fought for it and died, not what it came to be known for after the war and used by reprehensible people who celebrate the "dumb as dirt and proud of it" with no accomplishment in life other than to be born supposedly white Found it.... Edited to add it http://theweek.com/articles/562004/surprisingly-uncomplicated-racist-history-confederate-flag Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #189 June 29, 2015 futuredivotSo a South Carolinian's opinion based on local observation and the more varied viewpoint of a transplant is less valuable because it disagrees with your opinion? I'm not seeing that. And many is a nonspecific value. Do you say most, a certain percentage? Based on what? Just because ignorant people choose not to look into the sordid history of the flag, doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Read the declaration of secession from the various confederate states. Read the speech of the confederate vice president. They make it VERY clear what this banner is all about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #190 June 29, 2015 kallendJust because ignorant people choose... Just thought I'd toss a little background on this ignorant person you're referring to. Former bond analyst for XXXXX, and worked on Wall Street for 18 years-lived in XXXXXX, SC the past 15 years- now serving on the XXXXX school board-In the annual Institutional Investors Magazine survey of XXXX and XXXX, voted the number one market analyst by Wall Street clientsYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #191 June 29, 2015 QuoteJust because ignorant people choose not to look into the sordid history of the flag, doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Read the declaration of secession from the various confederate states. Read the speech of the confederate vice president. They make it VERY clear what this banner is all about. That's as valid as saying that you are ignorant because you've never read Lincoln's speeches in which he stated that he did not think blacks should be equal to whites. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #192 June 29, 2015 billvonQuoteJust because ignorant people choose not to look into the sordid history of the flag, doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Read the declaration of secession from the various confederate states. Read the speech of the confederate vice president. They make it VERY clear what this banner is all about. That's as valid as saying that you are ignorant because you've never read Lincoln's speeches in which he stated that he did not think blacks should be equal to whites. Oh, but I have.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #193 June 29, 2015 >Oh, but I have. And with that you have demonstrated my point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #194 June 29, 2015 billvon>Oh, but I have. And with that you have demonstrated my point. And Lincoln didn't wage a treasonous war against the USA in support of his views.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #195 June 30, 2015 kallendAnd Lincoln didn't wage a treasonous war against the USA in support of his views. Please draw a line back from this to my post OR my reply after you referred to my friend as ignorant.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreeece 2 #196 June 30, 2015 jclalor It's about time this treasonous and shamefull flag is put on the trash heap of history. You old people care too much about racial shit....you sound like all those religious nuts complaining about stuff you don't like... Personally, the world will be a better place when all yall is gone...Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #197 June 30, 2015 it's disappointing where this convo has gone now we have the Black Panthers, and other known racist trouble makers here trying to inflame tensions and we have a couple folks from SC, that live here, know the culture and know the people, that have offered factual information and fairly soft or neutral opinions while others of own crowd take strong positions to the point of being insulting It is possible to agree to disagree and not be so demeaning. I ask this question again, how will this ever be resolved if folks like us that have a common bond can so vehemently attack each other? As I said earlier, this is a SC issue and SC will decide how to resolve it. The sooner the outsiders get out of the convo the better.Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreeece 2 #198 June 30, 2015 Again...you people take shit too seriously. All your hatred will die with time...the future is with ignorant millennials and beyond. Our humor is no longer welcome...even liberal hijinks is looked upon as evil.Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #199 July 2, 2015 nypost.com/2015/06/30/south-carolina-approves-kkks-pro-confederate-flag-rally-at-capitol/ www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/30/kkk-rally-south-carolina-statehouse-confederate-flag/29510543/ Telling!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #200 July 2, 2015 >All your hatred will die with time... Didn't you just wish a bunch of people dead? There's a lot of hatred in this thread, and it ain't coming from him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
