bigway 4 #26 March 13, 2007 Quote4 fatalities in - what - 3 months? Something can't be going right if this kind of shit happens. What does it take to keep your head about you and exercise some sound judgement? Mistakes happen, I know I have made my fair share - but dying over a bad decision? I lost 4 friends last year in a plane crash - it sickens me to read the incidents forum and hear that this is happening WAY too often - even at all. We should not be leaving this sport by burning in and having everyone else "discussing" our incident on DZ.COM. I made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump. Your loss. Go bad mouth a dz to your mother. People here do not need to hear about you bad mouthing one of the greatest dropzones in the world. Shame people like you have to bitch about a dropzone in a public forum. How can you bad mouth a dz that has had 4 fatalities in a few months and in the same sentence tell us about another dz that lost 4 skydivers in one day??? I mean no disrespect to the fallen ones but, here you are bad mouthing Eloy over 4 deaths and you talk about a dz that lost 4 in one day. I dont get it. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #27 March 13, 2007 QuoteIf you haven't figured out by now that this is exactly how people die, then maybe you're in the wrong sport Or perhaps the wrong life....its not only our sport but a hell of a lot of life is based on the decisions YOU.. and OTHERS around you make. I have jumped at ELOY.. a LOT...during boogies and not during boogies and I find it a perfectly safe and AWSUM place to do so. There are PEOPLE there who come from all over the world with VASTLY different skill levels.... if one of them is doing something that endagers you... YOU have to do something to avoid having a problem and then YOU have to say something to the staff... This holds true at ANY dropzone....even a little Cessna DZ where the four people from the C-182 are tracking away from each other for 2 whole seconds ... and fly their canopy the same way they have been flying that same pattern for the last 30 years. ANY DZ is just as safe as YOU make it... if you are not part of the solution.. then YOU are part of the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #28 March 13, 2007 QuoteQuoteas that is a perfectly valid decision, but one made emotionally and largely ignorant of the facts... I think the main fact he is considering is that he's seen enough carnage. Most of us probably have. and staying in the house, with the blinds pulled and the TV off, is the only thing that will ever change that... IF you are lucky... this first body i ever saw was at my house in my entryway....lesson learned: you are never 'safe' anywhere.. get used to the idea, you will sleep better in the long run____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #29 March 13, 2007 QuoteJust because you don't jump at Eloy doesn't mean that you wont burn it. Not jumping at Eloy will guarantee that you do not get involved in a canopy collision... at Eloy. Flying a safe pattern in the presense of fairly heavy traffic is something you have to figure out if you want to jump at large multi-otter dropzones. Flying a safe pattern to avoid the one other canopy in the area at the time you're landing is something you have to figure out if you want to jump at any dropzone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fallinbear 0 #30 March 13, 2007 you know it, bud! In all seriousness, though...stop with the seriousness. It's gonna give you a bad name. Uhhh..wait....uhh...whatever...I don't want to make all the decisions because if I screw up, then I can't blame it on you... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #31 March 13, 2007 I agree in the concept but only to a point. One cannot help but think that something must be broken. BUT, I know of a few dropzones over the years that have had bad streaks of accidents or fatalities. Yet, no one can/could disagree that the dropzones them selves were safe and caring organizations. So how do you explain it? Statistics are hard too look at. Here at Skydive City we just had Johnny Gates die of a heart attack in freefall. Is the dropzone unsafe? Of course not. But if I look at the pure statistical numbers, we were actually WAY overdue for a fatality. Hate to say it, but that is the way it is TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #32 March 13, 2007 Quote4 fatalities in - what - 3 months? Skydiving accidents are simultaneously rare and oddly clumped. Take a longer view and I think you'll find that if you use your current criteria for judging where is and where is not safe to jump, then you won't be able to jump anywhere.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #33 March 13, 2007 standard patterns were the norm for alot of years - then came swooping - now i don't want to say people can't swoop it would be like someone saying i can't jump - but iot is time for the fucking stupid ass skygod swoopers that think the own the sky (this does not include the safe swoopers) to wake up up and look at what it has cost the sport - the landing area is for everyone to land safe and is not their personal space - if there are other people in the area a standard pattern and landing is mandatory - until people respect the rights of all to land safe the carnage and killing will continue - we all have made adjustments in the rest of the disaplines of skydiving to be safe it is about time the swoopers took it upon themselves to make adjustments to make swooping safe for the rest of the sport - sorry to sound harsh but i'm tired of hearing about the stupidity continuing to kill - we have enough to deal with every day as it is and with swooping causing the largest death/injury totals in the sport (and not by just a couple percent) it's time to either fix it or remove it from our sport Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #34 March 13, 2007 Hey Steve, I have always maintained that the most dangerous thing we do every jump day is drive back and forth to the DZ. My opinion is based on the fact that I cannot control enough of the human element all around me on the highway to make operating my car as safe as it should be. From the looks of the initial information on this double fatality last Friday, the human element in the person of the AFF student that flew into the other jumper was the cause. That mistake could happen at any place where people leave Properly Operating Aircraft and fall back to earth. It just happened to occur at a DZ where other recent fatalities have happened. I have jumped there and been safe, and I jump regularly at Mile High in Colorado even though we have had two fatalities there in the last year. Think through what the real cause is before scratching any particular DZ off your list. BSSL, Bill Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gonzalesna 0 #35 March 13, 2007 The biggest factor in a DZ to be a safe place for YOU to jump at is YOU. If you decide to do a hook turn into the ground while at Eloy, the DZ didn't cause it. You can't blame the DZ for such things. 99% of the time, you're what makes your jump safe or unsafe.Some people refrain from beating a dead horse. Personally, I find a myriad of entertainment value when beating it until it becomes a horse-smoothie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #36 March 13, 2007 Ya know...........I remember a few years back people whining incessantly about how Betsy was such a "Bitch" because she was always harping about safety. She even got me slightly annoyed at times when she chastized me about swooping. Then I visited Eloy and met with Betsy. I began to understand where she was coming from. She is the way she is because of the incredible amount of stupid things she sees people do on a regular basis. Then because of some individual's stupidity or mistakes (Or sometimes just plain bad luck) the DZ she works for gets bad mouthed. Besty.........please feel free to be a "bitch" to me as much as you like. I know you are only concerned for my safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piratemike 0 #37 March 13, 2007 There is such a high number of jumps daily at eloy that, statically, you will get clusters of accidents like there have been lately. Considering the number of jumps there over the number of accidents, Eloy is still quite safe. If you are worried about the pattern causing problems there, the landing areas are gigantic. Land somewhere else like me. I feel quite safe at Eloy because I can easily go land other places if the pattern is cluttered. I like eloy. I was at the last holiday boogie and lost a friend there. I'll continue to goto Eloy in the future. There are dropzones far worse than Eloy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #38 March 13, 2007 Up front, I'll admit its been years since I've been to Eloy... so long, in fact, that the last time I was there, the landing area rules were basically... the main landing area was east <> west, first person down sets the direction, period, regardless of whether they downwinded it or not... the alternate landing area was to land into the wind; rather then the current policy as I understand it that the alternate landing area is north <> south. I'd like to get around to getting over to Eloy and jump... I keep thinking about it... keep meaning to. You just can't beat a place where when you go up to manifest they ask you if you want to be on a 5, 10 or 20 minute call and also where you can hear them call "Otter load Eighty-something" this is your blah-blah-blah call. That's hip! However, I'll also admit that my first blush is I'd perfer if their main and alternate landing area policies were more like what I described when I was there last, years ago, rather then their current scenario. It makes me wonder if its put folks in the mind-set to be less aware of current conditions and what's going on around them because they're "just going to land in this direction" rather then putting more brain-bytes on piloting their canopies to a landing pattern / direction (i.e. into the wind) that's going to change from day to day, maybe even jump to jump, which requires more forthought? Anyway, that was meant as a point to ponder, that's all. Having said all that tough, it sounds like this latest one didn't have to do with confilicting patterns and/or high performance landings with more conservative canopy approaches in the same area. It sounds more like one or both canopy pilots failed to see and avoid the other; debate over which, both or neither was or wasn't in a position to do so withstanding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites streaker 0 #39 March 13, 2007 I haven't had the opportunity to travel to Eloy yet... but if I ever do have the opportunity to jump at Eloy I will. Busier dropzones like Eloy, especially during Boogies, require extra attention to safety practices. The more canopies in the air, the more opportunity for problems. We are ultimately responsible for our own personal safety and the safety of others in the air. It just isn't right thinking to blame the dropzone or the boogie. StreakerHave a yippee ki ya day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #40 March 13, 2007 Quote Skydive Arizona does everything it can to provide for a safe environment. forums. There were talks about having a mandatory separate landing area for swoopers after those fatalities in December; just wonder whether it happened/gonna happen?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #41 March 13, 2007 This incident had nothing to do with swooping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sunshine 2 #42 March 14, 2007 I'm more worried about the amount of second hand smoke i breathe in the bent prop. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #43 March 14, 2007 QuoteI'm more worried about the amount of second hand smoke i breathe in the bent prop. That'll be going away soon ... new law goes into effect in May, IIRC. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sunshine 2 #44 March 14, 2007 QuoteI'm more worried about the amount of second hand smoke i breathe in the bent prop. ---------------------------------------------------------- That'll be going away soon ... new law goes into effect in May, IIRC. If thats true, i might actually attend another holiday boogie. The reason i stopped attending the boogies was cause i couldn't stand the smell in the bar and there is nowhere else to hang out at night. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #45 March 14, 2007 I WILL Jump again at Eloy...in fact, next month for a CRW Camp I finished my AFF at Eloy back in 2003 and had phenomenal instruction from Greg Foster and Tim Strauss. It was a great experience and I am excited to return to Eloy. BTW... Betsy is awesome! Just because a few jumpers didn't have their heads on a swivel and be heads up jumpers doesn't make the dz a bad place...I've been all over the country at various dz's and it's not the dz's that make incidents, it's the jumpers...sad to say but it's the truth. I've lost a lot of loved ones in this sport in my short 3 years...and many of them could've been avoided. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ragnarok 0 #46 March 14, 2007 Fair enough. Plane crash or canopy collision? Neither if you ask me. As for carnage, yea, I have seen more than enough. I was at Eloy on Dec 24th. I landed on the alternate landing area because it was a bit busy in the main landing area. I stopped jumping because I had a "bad feeling". Am I being close minded? Yes. I really am not interested in seeing let alone hearing of any more people dying in this sport. I have had enough. I miss my friends very much - as much as all of you miss yours. My post was emotionally charged, but it did bring about some interesting points. I feel there is something wrong at Eloy. I am not saying that it os a bad DZ. I got my A card signed off there in Dec 2005. I like the school, the wind tunnel and the facilities. We need to not let death catch up to us. As skydivers we have an obligation to cheat him. Right? I do know that I have not gone to my last Skydiver funeral..............unfortunately._________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grue 1 #47 March 14, 2007 Wait, you mean the biggest dropzone in the world has the most fatalities, too? What a shocking revelation. Next thing you're going to tell me is that more people take a shit in China than in Monaco!cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #48 March 14, 2007 QuoteAm I being close minded? Yes. I really am not interested in seeing let alone hearing of any more people dying in this sport. I have had enough. Then you'd better quit now and stop making more friends in skydiving. Avoiding Eloy isn't going to make that possibility go away. You WILL lose friends in this sport, whether at Eloy or elsewhere. It's one of the sad realities of our chosen sport."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #49 March 14, 2007 What she said. I love Eloy. I've only been there once, but I had a blast and hope to go there again someday. The DZ is well run. Even for being such a big place, it's easy to find a load to get organized with and the people are nice too. I've not jumped at that many DZs (Skydive Oregon, Elsinore, Perris, Eloy, Skydive Alabama), but regulations and safety start with the individual.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azdiver 0 #50 March 14, 2007 when its busy they do have school loads that only tandems and aff students are on, to me the two landing zones are seperated a good distance from each other, there is no problem with cross traffic of people trying to get to both lz's First, keep swoopers and students way the hell away from everyone else. These are the two highest risk groups out there. There are two ways of doing this: physically seperating them with widely spaced landing areas, and seperating them with time...even to the point of putting them on different loads or doing completely seperate jump runs for these groups. Maybe the students should have their own landing area far away from where everyone else lands. Yes, they would have to be driven back to the dropzone, yes it would cost a little, but I think it is a reasonable thing to do. Such a thing is already done at Davis.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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piratemike 0 #37 March 13, 2007 There is such a high number of jumps daily at eloy that, statically, you will get clusters of accidents like there have been lately. Considering the number of jumps there over the number of accidents, Eloy is still quite safe. If you are worried about the pattern causing problems there, the landing areas are gigantic. Land somewhere else like me. I feel quite safe at Eloy because I can easily go land other places if the pattern is cluttered. I like eloy. I was at the last holiday boogie and lost a friend there. I'll continue to goto Eloy in the future. There are dropzones far worse than Eloy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #38 March 13, 2007 Up front, I'll admit its been years since I've been to Eloy... so long, in fact, that the last time I was there, the landing area rules were basically... the main landing area was east <> west, first person down sets the direction, period, regardless of whether they downwinded it or not... the alternate landing area was to land into the wind; rather then the current policy as I understand it that the alternate landing area is north <> south. I'd like to get around to getting over to Eloy and jump... I keep thinking about it... keep meaning to. You just can't beat a place where when you go up to manifest they ask you if you want to be on a 5, 10 or 20 minute call and also where you can hear them call "Otter load Eighty-something" this is your blah-blah-blah call. That's hip! However, I'll also admit that my first blush is I'd perfer if their main and alternate landing area policies were more like what I described when I was there last, years ago, rather then their current scenario. It makes me wonder if its put folks in the mind-set to be less aware of current conditions and what's going on around them because they're "just going to land in this direction" rather then putting more brain-bytes on piloting their canopies to a landing pattern / direction (i.e. into the wind) that's going to change from day to day, maybe even jump to jump, which requires more forthought? Anyway, that was meant as a point to ponder, that's all. Having said all that tough, it sounds like this latest one didn't have to do with confilicting patterns and/or high performance landings with more conservative canopy approaches in the same area. It sounds more like one or both canopy pilots failed to see and avoid the other; debate over which, both or neither was or wasn't in a position to do so withstanding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
streaker 0 #39 March 13, 2007 I haven't had the opportunity to travel to Eloy yet... but if I ever do have the opportunity to jump at Eloy I will. Busier dropzones like Eloy, especially during Boogies, require extra attention to safety practices. The more canopies in the air, the more opportunity for problems. We are ultimately responsible for our own personal safety and the safety of others in the air. It just isn't right thinking to blame the dropzone or the boogie. StreakerHave a yippee ki ya day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #40 March 13, 2007 Quote Skydive Arizona does everything it can to provide for a safe environment. forums. There were talks about having a mandatory separate landing area for swoopers after those fatalities in December; just wonder whether it happened/gonna happen?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #41 March 13, 2007 This incident had nothing to do with swooping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #42 March 14, 2007 I'm more worried about the amount of second hand smoke i breathe in the bent prop. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #43 March 14, 2007 QuoteI'm more worried about the amount of second hand smoke i breathe in the bent prop. That'll be going away soon ... new law goes into effect in May, IIRC. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #44 March 14, 2007 QuoteI'm more worried about the amount of second hand smoke i breathe in the bent prop. ---------------------------------------------------------- That'll be going away soon ... new law goes into effect in May, IIRC. If thats true, i might actually attend another holiday boogie. The reason i stopped attending the boogies was cause i couldn't stand the smell in the bar and there is nowhere else to hang out at night. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #45 March 14, 2007 I WILL Jump again at Eloy...in fact, next month for a CRW Camp I finished my AFF at Eloy back in 2003 and had phenomenal instruction from Greg Foster and Tim Strauss. It was a great experience and I am excited to return to Eloy. BTW... Betsy is awesome! Just because a few jumpers didn't have their heads on a swivel and be heads up jumpers doesn't make the dz a bad place...I've been all over the country at various dz's and it's not the dz's that make incidents, it's the jumpers...sad to say but it's the truth. I've lost a lot of loved ones in this sport in my short 3 years...and many of them could've been avoided. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok 0 #46 March 14, 2007 Fair enough. Plane crash or canopy collision? Neither if you ask me. As for carnage, yea, I have seen more than enough. I was at Eloy on Dec 24th. I landed on the alternate landing area because it was a bit busy in the main landing area. I stopped jumping because I had a "bad feeling". Am I being close minded? Yes. I really am not interested in seeing let alone hearing of any more people dying in this sport. I have had enough. I miss my friends very much - as much as all of you miss yours. My post was emotionally charged, but it did bring about some interesting points. I feel there is something wrong at Eloy. I am not saying that it os a bad DZ. I got my A card signed off there in Dec 2005. I like the school, the wind tunnel and the facilities. We need to not let death catch up to us. As skydivers we have an obligation to cheat him. Right? I do know that I have not gone to my last Skydiver funeral..............unfortunately._________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #47 March 14, 2007 Wait, you mean the biggest dropzone in the world has the most fatalities, too? What a shocking revelation. Next thing you're going to tell me is that more people take a shit in China than in Monaco!cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #48 March 14, 2007 QuoteAm I being close minded? Yes. I really am not interested in seeing let alone hearing of any more people dying in this sport. I have had enough. Then you'd better quit now and stop making more friends in skydiving. Avoiding Eloy isn't going to make that possibility go away. You WILL lose friends in this sport, whether at Eloy or elsewhere. It's one of the sad realities of our chosen sport."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #49 March 14, 2007 What she said. I love Eloy. I've only been there once, but I had a blast and hope to go there again someday. The DZ is well run. Even for being such a big place, it's easy to find a load to get organized with and the people are nice too. I've not jumped at that many DZs (Skydive Oregon, Elsinore, Perris, Eloy, Skydive Alabama), but regulations and safety start with the individual.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #50 March 14, 2007 when its busy they do have school loads that only tandems and aff students are on, to me the two landing zones are seperated a good distance from each other, there is no problem with cross traffic of people trying to get to both lz's First, keep swoopers and students way the hell away from everyone else. These are the two highest risk groups out there. There are two ways of doing this: physically seperating them with widely spaced landing areas, and seperating them with time...even to the point of putting them on different loads or doing completely seperate jump runs for these groups. Maybe the students should have their own landing area far away from where everyone else lands. Yes, they would have to be driven back to the dropzone, yes it would cost a little, but I think it is a reasonable thing to do. Such a thing is already done at Davis.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
