Why I will never again jump at Eloy....

[Ragnarok 0]

4 fatalities in - what - 3 months? Something can't be going right if this kind of shit happens. What does it take to keep your head about you and exercise some sound judgement? Mistakes happen, I know I have made my fair share - but dying over a bad decision? I lost 4 friends last year in a plane crash - it sickens me to read the incidents forum and hear that this is happening WAY too often - even at all. We should not be leaving this sport by burning in and having everyone else "discussing" our incident on DZ.COM.

I made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[FIREFLYR 0]

Eloy is an amazing dropzone, I've gone every yeay since I started jumping (4 trips) If you don't go ther it's because you're supersticious, or ignorant. What happens there can happen anywhere. ok, it's fair enough if you don't want to jump at a boogie there, but it's a great place to jump.
~J

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[Tonto 1]

It's never the place that is dangerous. It's the people. In this case, it was the person in the harness who thought doing a 360 would be ok.

They were wrong. The ground always knows where you are.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ExAFO 0]

Butt Secks?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[waltappel 1]

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I made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

To be fair, I think you have to look at each fatality and decide whether the DZ had a hand in it, maybe from a tight landing area with no outs (certainly *not* the case at Eloy) or lax DZ management (I doubt that applies to Eloy), or whatever.

I think all DZs could improve or maintain their safety record by having and enforcing maximum wing loadings, banning high performance landings, requiring AADs and RSLs, etc., but I also think most jumpers, including me, do not want our choices limited like that.

No DZ wants a fatality and I think you would have a very hard time finding a DZO who considers them to be acceptable. We are participants in a sport that has very harsh consequences for anyone who screws up severely. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to assume that a DZ is to blame when a jumper's poor judgement or bad luck costs him his life. The DZO is responsible for safe aircraft operation and maintenance and following accepted training practices, but as jumpers we need to accept the responsibility of our choices, no matter how stupid.

Walt

[jimmytavino 16]

whoa.....
don't blame the messenger cause you don't like the message...
according to your own post regarding the aircraft accident...
you should NOW not ever get in a plane again....

poor judgement and bad timing, knows no geographic boundaries.....
jumpers need to stay on top of things,, throughout their skydive, from gearing UP to touching DOWN...
The learning curve can be merciless......and sadly that can extend to involve others beyond the inattentive ones.....there are no guarantees..
It's a bit like driving.... stay alert, anticipate trouble, be defensive, don't speed, if other traffic is crawling....and learn to share the road.....safe arrival at the destination should be the top priority... right???


jmy

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

I am sorry that you feel this way.
Skydive Arizona does everything it can to provide for a safe environment.
I would also point out that in the past there were six fatalities (non-aircraft related) within a year at one dz. Yet people still jump there. Are they unsafe? I don't think so.
At the end of the day what we cannot do is control people's judgement or lack thereof.

One other thing I would ask folks to consider is this...
When people expire at any drop zone, it also effects the people that live and work there. Perhaps keeping this in mind would be cause for thought, and a bit less finger pointing which seems to happen more often in the forums.
The reality is that skydiving is not a safe sport. You are dead everytime you jump from an airplane until you do something.

[piisfish 135]

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jumpers need to stay on top of things,, throughout their skydive, from gearing UP to touching DOWN...

from gearing up to back in the packing area, specially when walking through the landing area and across runways.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[plowdirt 0]

Well you got to think out side the box. Is any DZ safe. NO. why because we are human and we make mistakes. so to single out Eloy, man I could only wish I could put a few jumps from Eloy in my log book.

The way I see it If you have that kind of attitude about it, you might as well hang it up now.

There will be many many more mistakes, fatalities etc etc.

Thats the thing we do and we are well aware of it.

shit happens man it's a shame, but it happens.

[PhreeZone 15]

If you go back and look at the history of the sport the busier the DZ, the more incidents that occur at them. Perris, Eloy, Deland, Chicago, Zhills, and Crosskeys have all had multiple fatalities that have occured at them.

Skydive Chicago had 1 fatality in 1997, 2 in 1998, 1 in 2000, 4 in 2001, 2 in 2002, 1 in 2003, and 1 in 2004.
Eloy has had 4 in 1996, 1 in 1997, 2 in 1998, 1 in 1999, 2 in 2000, 2 in 2003, 2 in 2004, 2 in 2005, 2 in 2006 and now 2 in 2007.
Deland had 1 in 1996, 1 in 1999, 1 in 2000, 2 in 2001, 1 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 2 in 2005.

Here is a statistic that you should completely understand if you want to skydive:
Total incidents between 5/8/1995 and 1/20/2007: 675

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jimmytavino 16]

yes good point...
for decades it was very UN likely that a jumper would be hit by another jumper, while heading back on foot from a completed jump... we did learn to watch for planes and flying/taxiing traffic....and canopy traffic was less...

Today, the advent of swoop landings and extreme canopy speeds close to the ground, does bring another level of diligence to our jump.
Nowadays all landing areas are 'hot zones' and they extend from 0 ft. AGL to a thousand feet AGL. Daydreaming about your skydive while in that zone,,, sure could be dangerous...either at 500 feet,,,, when you should be paying attention
or while on foot,,,when you should be paying attention
continuing education..... pass it along

j

[kaerodyne 0]

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Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

Having only been there once this past December for the Holiday Boogie, I have to disagree that Eloy is no longer a safe place to jump.

The way the staff and Inst attended to the education and safety of jumpers while I was at the dz was very noticeable and I was impressed that even with the large number of jumpers and loads in a single day, Eloy was very attentive to making sure that basic safety was adhered to.

On the jumps that I did, there was always a person making sure the load knew the wind direction, landing pattern etc.

Having said all this, there is alwasy the "unknown factor" and the fact that this sport is a high risk activity, that could cause death or serious injury should always be a first last and continued thought when skydiving.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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If you go back and look at the history of the sport the busier the DZ, the more incidents that occur at them. Perris, Eloy, Deland, Chicago, Zhills, and Crosskeys have all had multiple fatalities that have occured at them.

Skydive Chicago had 1 fatality in 1997, 2 in 1998, 1 in 2000, 4 in 2001, 2 in 2002, 1 in 2003, and 1 in 2004.

Eloy has had 4 in 1996, 1 in 1997, 2 in 1998, 1 in 1999, 2 in 2000, 2 in 2003, 2 in 2004, 2 in 2005, 2 in 2006 and now 2 in 2007.

Deland had 1 in 1996, 1 in 1999, 1 in 2000, 2 in 2001, 1 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 2 in 2005.

Here is a statistic that you show completely understand if anyone wants to skydive:
Total incidents between 5/8/1995 and 1/20/2007: 675

If you look at each of these intsances I bet you will find that over 75% of these were operator error or just plain old bad choices made.


I know just one of the SDC fatalities was a freak accident, and that was dealt with IMMEDIATLEY.

I know this for a fact because I did not finish AFP that summer due to no gear availible.

At SDC I have never seen anyone condone unsafe actions, yeah we all like having fun but you can bet your ass you will get a little chat from the staff or others if you need it.

Don't like the talk? don't act like a fool or leave.


P.S. We actually have a landing pattern USE IT.

BTW so little is said to anyone that if you do get a talking to you might just wanna listen.

[pinkfairy 0]

Why isn't this in "Safety & Training", "General skydiving discussions" or even "places to jump"?

Shit does happen at 120 mhp. Or even at slower speeds. There will always be incidents.

I personally don't want to go to a larger DZ than the one I'm currently jumping at. That's just my decicion. I'm a newbie and don't want to have to handle more traffic than 20xpeople and 1x aircraft.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[warpedskydiver 0]

The actual size of the landing area means alot.

Who can't find a place to land on 80 plus acres?

[ryoder 1,386]

Let's say:
DZ A makes 100 jumps per week.
DZ B makes 1000 jumps per week.

DZ A had one fatality last year.
DZ B had 2 fatalities last year.

Which one is safer? If you say it is DZ A, you need a refresher course in statistics.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[KevinMcGuire 0]

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4 fatalities in - what - 3 months? Something can't be going right if this kind of shit happens. What does it take to keep your head about you and exercise some sound judgement? Mistakes happen, I know I have made my fair share - but dying over a bad decision? I lost 4 friends last year in a plane crash - it sickens me to read the incidents forum and hear that this is happening WAY too often - even at all. We should not be leaving this sport by burning in and having everyone else "discussing" our incident on DZ.COM.

I made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

You have chosen a sport that is inherently dangerous.
What do you expect? If your that worried about it, perhaps you should take up a safer sport. Just because you don't jump at Eloy doesn't mean that you wont burn it.

[squirrel 0]

when it doubt, land out.

you can always land away from the crowds....my wife and I do, and avoid boogie weekends where the drugs and alcohol are more prevelent. i feel eloy is a good place, very big landing areas (two), i land in the student area to avoid swoopers, and i have a D license. same reason i jump and elsinore over perris...larger grassed landing area, more room, less chance of collisions.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[Lindercles 0]

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Mistakes happen, I know I have made my fair share - but dying over a bad decision?

If you haven't figured out by now that this is exactly how people die, then maybe you're in the wrong sport.

[BillyVance 34]

I don't think any one big major DZ is more unsafe than the other, but one place I will not jump at anymore is the WFFC. It's just way too big and chaotic for me. I went to Quincy in 1997, I watched two people die and a 3rd died but came back to life in the ambulance. I also watched a doofus snap his foot almost clean off landing on a taxiway when he had wide open grass to land on next to it. One of the two fatalities was someone making a panic turn away from landing on a clear, inactive taxiway and slamming under a camper just 50 feet away from where I was packing my rig.

If the WFFC starts offering packing space in a steel-roofed hangar, I might consider coming back. But that is the one event of the year that you must always keep your head on a swivel no matter where you are on the ground or in the air.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[davedlg 0]

Eloy is a big dropzone. Lots of jumps take place there. Statistically, this kind of thing will happen. Four fatalities from canopy collisions in three months is a lot though. I think it is more an indicator of the state of our sport then a specific problem at Eloy. However....they can do better. I'm not pointing any fingers here, as I don't think Eloy is run any worse than any other dropzone out there, quite the opposite in fact.

Eloy is the biggest, best dropzone out there...they should be on the cutting edge of things in this sport. I think they can find a solution. I hope these last four fatalities should encourage them to be innovative - the other dropzones would eventually follow.

With bigger planes, more loads, canopies with widely varying speeds, and the advent of swooping, there is a problem in the sport. Simply telling people, "fly a pattern and keep your head on a swivel" is NOT working. That is obvious. I think there are several things that can be done that would make skydiving in general a lot safer.

First, keep swoopers and students way the hell away from everyone else. These are the two highest risk groups out there. There are two ways of doing this: physically seperating them with widely spaced landing areas, and seperating them with time...even to the point of putting them on different loads or doing completely seperate jump runs for these groups. Maybe the students should have their own landing area far away from where everyone else lands. Yes, they would have to be driven back to the dropzone, yes it would cost a little, but I think it is a reasonable thing to do. Such a thing is already done at Davis.

Next, brief EVERY load on traffic patterns and winds, and MAKE SURE they understand. I know this is already done to some extent, but obviouslly people aren't getting it.

Finally, spot EVERY load and watch everyone's pattern. Anyone who does not follow the correct pattern and established guidlines should be grounded for at least a day. No if's and's or but's about it. There is too much at stake.

I really think that the goal of no canopy collisions is a reasonable one. It is probably the most avoidable fatality in our sport. It comes down to educating people, strictly enforcing the rules, and keeping the high risk groups way away from everyone else.

[Zenister 0]

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I made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

"to bad ignorance isnt painful"

as that is a perfectly valid decision, but one made emotionally and largely ignorant of the facts...

Eloy is as safe (or safer) than any dropzone on the planet. period.

Fatalities happen every where, every day for a variety of reasons..

might as well use your 'logic' here to state "why i will never again step outside my house"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[ladyflyer77 0]

As most of the people on here know, a large group of us went to Eloy a couple of weeks ago. We come from a lot smaller dz. So our trip to a commercial dz was something we needed to adjust to. Yes, I agree Skydive AZ should have the two landing area further apart (only beacuse of the direction of the two landing areas leave the possibility of error) but it also reflects on the jumpers.

When we arrived at the dz, we didn't jump on the first load we could get on. We observed what everyone was doing from exit, to track, to openings to final and then to the hanger.

Watch, learn and then play. Be safe about it. The only people to blame in this sport are ourselves. You shouldn't blame the people running it.

If I stand on my tip toes, I can see the weekend from here!

[waltappel 1]

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as that is a perfectly valid decision, but one made emotionally and largely ignorant of the facts...

I think the main fact he is considering is that he's seen enough carnage. Most of us probably have.

Walt

[skybytch 259]

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Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump.

What makes you think the same thing couldn't happen to you at anytime at your home dz?

The only 100% foolproof way to avoid dying while skydiving is to not skydive.