Repeat a Level, Not FAIL a level

[popsjumper 2]

I would like to get everyone to refrain from using the term "fail" when dealing with students.

All too often I hear, "Failed Level X".

Couldn't we use less negative terms when students get to repeat a level?

"Let's do that one over again to really get it dialed in for the next level."


How do YOU tell a student that a repeat is necessary?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[taylor.freefall 0]

I know the instructors I've had at Perris Valley are cool like that, I think I've had all of them at one time or another, each one was excellent in every way.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

How do YOU tell a student that a repeat is necessary?

I explain exactly what the Targeted Learning Objectives I need to see before we do the jump, then during video debrief I ask them if they thought they completed the TLO's. Most will deside for themselves as to whether they need to repeat.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[chuckakers 370]

Quote

I would like to get everyone to refrain from using the term "fail" when dealing with students.

All too often I hear, "Failed Level X".

Couldn't we use less negative terms when students get to repeat a level?

"Let's do that one over again to really get it dialed in for the next level."


How do YOU tell a student that a repeat is necessary?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I went through my AFF evals in 1991. At that time there were 2 course directors in the entire world (and the entire world used our AFF evals). EVERY candidate was taught that we do not fail students, we simply don't pass them yet.

AFF is self paced. There are no failures. The course is crawl, walk, run. Students should revel in their successes and be challenged by their weaknesses.

I like your response to students who need more work. I used to use "let's knock out the rest of the TLO's of that level", implying they didn't fail, but simply didn't complete the TLO's. That way they just "didn't finish".

That makes it much easier around the campfire - and that's what brings 'em back.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,400]

>How do YOU tell a student that a repeat is necessary?

"We're going to have to repeat some of the things we tried on that jump, because we have to make sure you can XXX before we move on."

On the other hand, if someone asks me if they passed or failed a level, I'll tell them. I'm not one for a lot of euphemisms. They know what you mean.

[DanG 1]

I only use the word fail when coaching students regarding deployment altitude. As in, "I don't care if you do all the TLO's for Cat G, Cat H, and the A license check dive, if you miss your deployment altitude you will fail the jump and none of it will count."

Otherwise it all just stuff that we need to work on a little more.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

If their precious egos are so frail that semantics is going to affect their ability to learn, do you really think they should be in a sport that requires them to think fast and act decisively

debriefs should always reinforce what was done right and not mentally 'practice' what went wrong, so this seems to be a moot thread anyway - but walking on eggs seems to just breed weanies.

anyway -

"you did this well, continue to do this - it looked really good, let's practice this and this some more and go up and do it again"

"did I --fail-- the level?"

"yup, no big deal, you made good progress though and we allow do overs"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

"you did this well, continue to do this - it looked really good, let's practice this and this some more and go up and do it again"

"did I --fail-- the level?"

"yup, no big deal, you made good progress though and we allow do overs"

That sounds a lot different from
"you did this well, continue to do this - it looked really good, but you failed the level because did this and this not right, so let's go up and do it again"

-"Oh.."

"No big deal, you made good progress though and we allow do overs"

Your approach is a positive one, the one in my example places the accent on what they did wrong.

I may be no instructor, but some things carry over quite nicely from other fields

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[grannyinthesky 0]

Quote

I may be no instructor, but some things carry over quite nicely from other fields

As a math instructor I can vouch for that idea. I think math is scarier for a lot of my students than skydiving would be. Even when they haven't done well, I try to let them know what progress they have made and what they need to do to improve. Their attitude about the subject and themselves has a lot to do with eventual success.

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[skybytch 259]

Quote

If their precious egos are so frail that semantics is going to affect their ability to learn, do you really think they should be in a sport that requires them to think fast and act decisively

What does feeling like a loser after being told you failed have to do with thinking fast and acting decisively? Not a damn thing.

An example - It was her third attempt at Cat C. I'd watched the videos of the first two. After several hours of ground prep that did little other than wind her up, the second one was really really bad - backsliding spin that was so close to flipping over. So I emphasized relaxing and smiling in the (short!) ground prep for the third one and up we went.

The skydive was sooooo much better than the two before. She was relaxed and smiling and having fun. But she still had a turn issue, therefore we couldn't call it a "pass". Her first question when she landed was "did I fail?" Why? Because everybody on the dz was going to ask if she "passed" or not.

My answer was "You didn't fail anything. You were relaxed, smiling and having fun; that skydive was soooo much better than the last two. But you didn't complete the TLO's for the category so we need to see one more jump with two instructors."

She recently did her first solo. She's gonna be a good skydiver. She told me later that skydive was the one that made her think she could really do this shit - she was strongly considering giving up on skydiving if she "failed" that jump.

Quote

but walking on eggs seems to just breed weanies.

We're "walking on eggs" if we refuse to use a word that has negative connotations? I disagree.

I have an issue with calling someone a weenie when they keep coming back even though they don't immediately perform up to standards. Weenies don't come back.

Semantics can mean the difference between a marginal student coming back or not - is the goal to make skydivers or to stroke our own egos?

[drdive 0]

+1

When I was struggling in AFF, my first instructor's debrief always started with a glare, and "tell me what you did wrong". I went home discouraged every time. Winter came without me finishing AFF at my home DZ, then I went to Lake Wales in the winter, and was still very apprehensive about fucking up. On my first jump, a recurrency level 5 I think, I made some mistakes, and was ready for my ass-kicking. My instructor said with a big smile, "great jump!! - now there were a few small things I want you to work on" - it made all the difference in the world in my attitude, and I sailed through the rest of AFF.

Now when I do coach jumps, I always try to start the debrief with something the student did well, even if I have to really reach to find it. Then I go over the areas I see for more work. I want them to have fun and a positive experience and come back. I know how close I was to quitting at that level.

Doc

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[grannyinthesky 0]

Quote

Now when I do coach jumps, I always try to start the debrief with something the student did well, even if I have to really reach to find it. Then I go over the areas I see for more work. I want them to have fun and a positive experience and come back. I know how close I was to quitting at that level.

Jumping with you has always been a very postitive experience, even when I didn't accomplish what I had planned or messed up something (little that low opening at Prairie). I learned and had fun and that's really important. I hope to do the same for people I jump with after i get my coach rating.

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[billvon 2,400]

>My answer was "You didn't fail anything. You were relaxed, smiling and
>having fun; that skydive was soooo much better than the last two. But
>you didn't complete the TLO's for the category so we need to see one
>more jump with two instructors."

That's great. But then she walked back to the DZ, and had people ask "did you fail?" If she tells them "no, I did great!" someone is going to figure out that she did, in fact, fail - and then she's going to trust you a little less.

I am all for phrasing things positively. But I am also one for being as honest as I can with my students, even if it means hurting their feelings. Sometimes you have to say "yes, you failed." Sometimes you even have to say "it's not going to be safe for you to continue in AFF; you're missing some basic skills/comprehension that you need to do this without getting hurt."

I once had a student from the UK who was on his level 8 (last jump at Perris AFF) and he didn't quite get through the TLO's. Almost lost altitude awareness at the bottom end, but pulled on his own before 3500.

After we landed he asked "did I fail?" I did the "first walk me through the jump and what we did." He did that, thought about it, and said "so I failed, huh?" "Yup," I said. "I think if we work on tracking and altitude awareness, though, you should be fine, because everything else was OK."

We did for a while. He jumped with another instructor and passed, on his last chance before going back to the UK. That night he thanked me for all the work I did with him. The next day I discovered he had left me a $50 tip, which is the only tip I've ever gotten for failing someone.

>Semantics can mean the difference between a marginal student coming
>back or not - is the goal to make skydivers or to stroke our own egos?

One could ask the same thing a different way. Is it our job to produce _safe_ skydivers, or to stroke student's egos?

[AllisonH 0]

Quote

One could ask the same thing a different way. Is it our job to produce _safe_ skydivers, or to stroke student's egos?

I don't view the two as being mutually exclusive. I prefer to look at each task individually. Frequently the student will accomplish at least some goals (i.e. be able to get at least 1 thing signed off on their progression card) on a jump, though they may not complete them all. I prefer to present that in a "alright, you did well enough on w and x for me to sign them off on your card - on your next jump let's practice y some more and also give z a try" manner than in a "you failed this jump" way.

[billvon 2,400]

>I don't view the two as being mutually exclusive.

Often they are not, but sometimes they are. Sometimes students do so poorly that you have to tell them in no uncertain terms that what they did was dangerous and cannot, under any circumstances, be repeated. And sometimes you have to tell students that they cannot continue in the sport because they don't have what it takes. Fortunately, that's rare.

[skybytch 259]

Climb back up that slippery slope, Bill. There's a BIG difference between having to pull for a student - on any jump - and the student not stopping a turn within the required number of degrees on a Cat C or not getting to the backloop in time on a Cat E.

If the student I was talking about hadn't pulled, she'd have failed. And I would have used the word "fail" if that were the case, mainly to emphasize to her just how important pulling is. But she did pull, on time and stable. She landed fine. She was smiling. She had a good time for her $200. She came back.

Telling her she failed because she didn't nail stability on the first skydive she'd been relaxed enough to actually enjoy would have needlessly taken away from that enjoyment and led her to assume that skydiving isn't for her. Not telling her she failed while still emphasizing the things that she needs to work on for her next jump let her go home with positive memories and a burning desire to come back.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

One could ask the same thing a different way. Is it our job to produce _safe_ skydivers, or to stroke student's egos?

+1

[rehmwa 2]

Well, as long as you only responded to the first couple lines of my post and completely ignore the rest, I'm ok with it.

BV's response seemed most appropriate and one I agree with -

1st priority be honest
train = reinforce the positive
train = help practice what's not so positive by practicing the correct way to do it, not dwelling on the wrong execution

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skydude2000 3]

I remember one of the first two ways I did for my 'A', I'd been struggling a lot with currency and having a lot of other issues with packing & stuff. We did a linked exit, sort of, but my coach slipped on the climb-out. The rest of the dive went ok at best. But I remember when we landed, he told me how impressed and encouraged he was that I managed to salvage the exit. That was HUGE for me.

It had been mediocre dive after mediocre dive, I had to consider whether I wanted to continue. That single comment absolutely sealed it. I knew I could really kick ass if I tried. After that, I really knew it was just as much about how you say it, as what you're saying.

Just an opinion from a student's perspective

PULL!! or DIE!!

[ozzy13 0]

I read this thread and its all semantics. This one of the reasons I hate DZ.com. People pick apart what you say.

ok done with the rant

I think instructors are suppose to teach and student are suppose to learn. There are many different ways to teach and learn. If the students do not learn its the Instructor that are failing not the student. Yes you might have to revisit some TLO's. We are talking about a sport that if the student does fail they are dead. We are in a sport that is life a death. Yes you might have pull for a student and thats a redo. I just think its are responsibility to teach and if we as instructors don't do that, Then we are the ones that are failing. JMO

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[billvon 2,400]

>There are many different ways to teach and learn. If the students do
>not learn its the Instructor that are failing not the student.

Some instructors fail to teach students well; some students are not capable of learning. Both sides can have problems I think. Sometimes a student can't take instruction from a given instructor because of a generational gap or they don't mesh well or whatever, but sometimes they're just incapable of learning to do a task due to physical or mental incompatibility with the task at hand. As instructors, I think we have a responsibility to recognize such problems and:

-try different styles of teaching for different students (navy SEALs learn differently than dentists)
-try different instructors (i.e. the 22 year old freeflyer vs the 52 year old accuracy champ)
-try alternative methods of instruction (i.e. wind tunnel, tandem)
-suggest alternative sports if all else fails.

No one likes to tell a student they can't jump because they're just not learning, or because they're dangerous in the air, but sometimes you have to. And often that's not indicative of an instructor that's failed the student; often that's the mark of an instructor willing to make a tough call and do the best thing for the student.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

..One could ask the same thing a different way. Is it our job to produce _safe_ skydivers, or to stroke student's egos?

There you go again. I wonder what is driving you put things in a "one or the other" framework. Are you unable to produce _safe_ skydivers AND stroke an ego?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

>My answer was "You didn't fail anything. You were relaxed, smiling and
>having fun; that skydive was soooo much better than the last two. But
>you didn't complete the TLO's for the category so we need to see one
>more jump with two instructors."

That's great. But then she walked back to the DZ, and had people ask "did you fail?" If she tells them "no, I did great!" someone is going to figure out that she did, in fact, fail - and then she's going to trust you a little less.

Bull. And I say BULL again. If you have no more influence over your student than that....

Quote

I am all for phrasing things positively. But I am also one for being as honest as I can with my students, even if it means hurting their feelings.

I'll continue to try to refrain from hurting their feelings...even in the extreme event of having to tell them skydiving is not for them.

Quote

Sometimes you have to say "yes, you failed."

Totally disagree here. You never have to say that.

Quote

Sometimes you even have to say "it's not going to be safe for you to continue in AFF; you're missing some basic skills/comprehension that you need to do this without getting hurt."

That, on the face of it, seems to be a better way than saying, "You failed."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

This thread was generated in response to seeing and hearing so many instructors telling young jumpers they failed when in actuality all they needed was a little more practice to get the hang of a particular skill.

Wouldn't be better to call for obtaining skill sets rather than "passing" levels?

Skill set 1:
Stable, neutral body position.
Altitude awareness,
Deploy main parachute.

Develop these skills and progress to the next skill set.

Skill set 2:
Blah, Blah, blah

Develop these skills and progress to the next skill set.

and so on.....

Notice there's no jump numbers attached. No Pass/fail criteria. Who cares how many jumps it takes to master the skill set? We're putting tools in the toolbox.

(OK...for you guys that are going to go there....the student's wallet does, yes.)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kimemerson 7]

Tao saying: "The only failure is the failure to try."
Something I heard:"Failure is not falling down. Failure is staying down."

There is no failure so long as they don't quit. And as with anything new we are trying to learn, we need to practice, practice, practice. How can there be failure on one attempt? Two? I never allowed my students to fail. I maybe didn't always allow them to move on so fast, but I never allowed them to fail. That word was stricken from our vocabulary.