azureriders 0 #26 February 7, 2009 We use the old seven jump AFF program. I stress that there are seven levels, not seven tests, not seven pass or fails, and not even seven jumps, simply seven levels. We seem to be still working on this level, when the TLOs are met, we will move on to the next level, how ever many jumps that may take. Yes, you can finish the seven levels in seven jumps, but it is not required. As someone else has already said, if you give your students goals, (call them TLOs, or SMART goals, or what ever) then simply ask the student if the goals were met, 'most' will make the right decision on their own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #27 February 7, 2009 QuoteThis thread was generated in response to seeing and hearing so many instructors telling young jumpers they failed when in actuality all they needed was a little more practice to get the hang of a particular skill. Wouldn't be better to call for obtaining skill sets rather than "passing" levels? Skill set 1: Stable, neutral body position. Altitude awareness, Deploy main parachute. Develop these skills and progress to the next skill set. Skill set 2: Blah, Blah, blah Develop these skills and progress to the next skill set. and so on..... Notice there's no jump numbers attached. No Pass/fail criteria. Who cares how many jumps it takes to master the skill set? We're putting tools in the toolbox. (OK...for you guys that are going to go there....the student's wallet does, yes.) Well the problem with that idea that they are told by other students that thier are min. 7 levels to get threw AFF and if they don't do it in 7 levels they think they have failed. Yes as instructors we need to reinforce in them that its not a race but they still have that in there headNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #28 February 7, 2009 I can honestly say at the two DZs I've worked at, I've never heard an instructor tell a student they 'failed'. Not once. But I HAVE heard students referring to themselves as failing a level several times at the same DZs. Students are generally harder on themselves than instructors are on them. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #29 February 7, 2009 >>Sometimes you have to say "yes, you failed." >Totally disagree here. You never have to say that. Let's say you take a student on a level 4 and they lose AA and don't pull on their own. If they say to you "look, I really don't want to repeat level 4. Did I fail it, yes or no?" What will you reply? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #30 February 7, 2009 Quote>>Sometimes you have to say "yes, you failed." >Totally disagree here. You never have to say that. Let's say you take a student on a level 4 and they lose AA and don't pull on their own. If they say to you "look, I really don't want to repeat level 4. Did I fail it, yes or no?" What will you reply? I'd say: "Neither. You haven't mastered Level 4 yet, and you need to practice it more before I'll let you move on to Level 5." I wouldn't let myself get pulled into the "pass-fail" word game. AFF levels are not a test; they are training, and the training takes however long it takes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MomDaBomb 0 #31 February 8, 2009 With the exception of my level 1 jump, I don't think the words pass/fail has ever been discussed. My instructors have always made me tell them how I thought I did before they comment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpah 0 #32 February 8, 2009 They all should be adults. Semantics shouldn't be an issue. I do prefer "repeat" vs. "fail". More important is the delivery of the debrief of the jump and there are some great examples in this thread. Be kind, be honest, be non-judgmental, be encouraging, be helpful. With that the use of "fail" versus "repeat" won't have much of an impact. I think your point is about the larger scope of teaching skills and maximizing the understanding. Myself and a few other experienced skydivers/coaches/instructors learned a better way to work with a student this past summer. We had a 50 jump person barely clear the trees coming back from a long spot. There was an excellent out for her 1 mile away (and I think we already had a car going there). She knew it was there but she didn't take it for whatever reason. When she landed (in the swoop course just beyond the trees), about four people talked to her about it as soon as she was in earshot of the peanut gallery. No one yelled, but no one was going to let that one go. We really like her...she's great people and a great addition to the dropzone and friend to all of us. Boy did that upset her. She teared, got quiet, and wandering off to go be alone. We knew we kinda messed that one up and sat in our chairs feeling bad. Was there a better way to give her that info? YES. Should folks have gone to her right away like that? Probably not. Better to have one person do it. Around that time we were feeling bad, one of the jumper's girlfriend came over and told us the jumper was really upset. We could see her over the other side of the landing area. She was smoking a cigarette and visibly upset, talking with another girl. We looked at each other and all felt terrible. We felt that we had to get the message across, but we knew that we messed up the delivery. I walked over to her and said 'come with me' and picked her up off the ground. I carried her back to the peanut gallery. I think I told her that we felt bad, that we liked her, and we want to make sure she understands why that was dangerous. I sat in my flimsy chair with her on my lap, five or six other skydivers around also seated. We had the beers out as that had been last load. She continued smoking her cigarette. A veteran instructor started, talking to her and us, and we all listened. Everyone was quiet except for him. He calmly explaining the situation as he saw it, using facts, data, logic. As he went along the underlying message, he told her, is that we really like you and we don't want you to get hurt...and she and we couldn't risk her doing something like that again. She had to do her part by taking criticism/advice/groundings in stride and use them to improve her as a skydiver. As the conversation went on, it became a mini-seminar in canopy control, front and rear riser inputs, etc. Most people learned something. Anyway, this isn't swimming. This isn't bike riding. Other people's lives are at stake. Be kind, be respectful, be intelligent. Just don't be meek when talking to someone about a problem, but consider the delivery, and be sure to try to find the best time to have the talk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #33 February 8, 2009 QuoteI would like to get everyone to refrain from using the term "fail" when dealing with students. All too often I hear, "Failed Level X". Couldn't we use less negative terms when students get to repeat a level? "Let's do that one over again to really get it dialed in for the next level." What are these levels of which you speak? We only use Categories; therefore, one simply remains in a category until all the TLO's are met. "You've got 25 dives till you can achieve the "A" license anyway. What say we have a little more fun with the TLO's in this category, mate?" Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #34 February 8, 2009 > AFF levels are not a test; they are training . . . . They are both. They don't have to be, but in the interests of time, we combine the training and the testing in the same set of jumps. That's why we have TLO's - to set specific objectives that a student must achieve before moving on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikerxxuk 0 #35 February 9, 2009 During my AFF, each level debrief was aimed at getting me to review how I think I did. 9 times out of 10 a student will be more critical of himself than an instructor will be. EG. INSTRUCTOR - How did you think that one went? What did you think about your exit....your turns...your landing.... Do you think you passed that level? STUDENT-...err I didn't quite arch on exit and tumbled a couple of times....struggled to control the turns...face planted the landing... no I think I better take that one again... I do training and appraisals as part of my job and that is pretty much the way it is done in the workplace as well.It's my Natural Arch ! It has nothing to do with pies whatsoever ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fincher 0 #36 February 9, 2009 thank you seriously the students arent idiots that need to be word gamed into submission. The students themselves use the word fail more than instructors. You can sugar coat it all you want but they arent stupid. In their mind they will register it as FAIL. We live in a pass or fail culture. If you use the term "pass" when they complete a level then whats the opposite of that?.......yep FAIL. I mean come on......if you go at a green light what do you do at a red light? would you describe it "as a momentary pause of forward movement to observe your immediate environment before continuing your forward progress."? Hell no! you say stop! Like I said I have hardly ever heard a instructor say that anyway. its usually the students calling themselves out on it. They know whats up.i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 February 9, 2009 Quotethank you seriously the students arent idiots that need to be word gamed into submission. The students themselves use the word fail more than instructors. You can sugar coat it all +1 ya know, in the end, there will be students that will respond poorly to a certain set of words, and others that might just get highly motivated from the exact same set of words this is a goofy thread ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #38 February 10, 2009 Quote...ya know, in the end, there will be students that will respond poorly to a certain set of words, and others that might just get highly motivated from the exact same set of words Exactly! How many respond in a positive manner to positive input vs how many respond in a positive manner to negative input? You tell me. I'm betting that more respond in a positive manner to positive input. And you're right...there is a small contingent of people out there who respond well to stuff like, "You failed, dumbass, Get it right!"My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 February 10, 2009 Quote What are these levels of which you speak? Just for you, Keith. http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=553256 My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 February 10, 2009 QuoteYou tell me. that wording makes me sad, it's so direct and confrontational ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #41 February 10, 2009 QuoteWe live in a pass or fail culture And you have failed to persuade me that not mastering an unfamiliar skill set, in an alien environment, on the first attempt at practicing it, while under the influence of a well-founded fear of imminent death, should be deemed a "failure". As for the rest of this silly back-and-forth, I'll take a pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #42 February 10, 2009 Quote Quote You tell me. that wording makes me sad, it's so direct and confrontational Glad you caught it... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #43 February 10, 2009 Quote Quote Quote You tell me. that wording makes me sad, it's so direct and confrontational Glad you caught it... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #44 February 11, 2009 Andy. Just to let you rest easy. My logbook says, "Repeat level 4" .. 5 times! You know where I did AFF! Ahh. Good times. Even tho you were not an Instructor back then, you were there to help & encourage us. Thanks again man. I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #45 February 11, 2009 You be 'da Man, Don. Thanks, I really appreciate that comment. Things like that, and the big smiles, make it all worthwhile. And YES! Good times, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #46 February 14, 2009 QuoteMy logbook says, "Repeat level 4" .. 5 times! So why'd you keep failing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humanflite 0 #47 February 14, 2009 Quote Quote My logbook says, "Repeat level 4" .. 5 times! So why'd you keep failing? Spinning out is my guess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #48 February 14, 2009 Quote Quote Quote My logbook says, "Repeat level 4" .. 5 times! So why'd you keep failing? Spinning out is my guess I think you missed the joke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #49 February 15, 2009 Quote Quote My logbook says, "Repeat level 4" .. 5 times! So why'd you keep failing? Well, you see...Don never did really have to repeat anything. What it was is that Don's wife is a top-shelf hottie and we wanted him to keep bringing her back to watch him in AFF so we could watch her watching him. Simple as that...watch out though, don't tell her that. Saaaaay...what time is it anyway? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #50 February 15, 2009 Well, the first part is a lie. The second is true & probably true... Third part.. Time to go to sleep? I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
