Hypocrisy

[labrys 0]

A couple of recent threads have really gotten my goat.

General opinion seems to be that it's bad form to charge for coaching but it's perfectly okay to charge heavier tandem students extra money because it increases instructor risk.

What's the deal? Isn't a coach jump riskier for the coach than a fun jump? Is it okay to charge the average whuffo making a tandem extra because they aren't a "real" skydiver, but not okay to charge a coached student extra because they might stick with the sport and should be supported?

Would the heavy tandem find a way to stay involved with the sport if they weren't singled out as a "risk" and made to think they were extra luggage at the airport check-in desk?

WTF?

Owned by Remi #?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

'General opinion' about charging for coaching tends to come from people who do something else for a living. when I learned to skydive nobody ever charged for coaching, and generally I got my money's worth. There were no coaching programs, Rob Laidlaw hadn't laid out for all to see what was actually required to teach an athlete a skill in a skydiving setting. Coaching meant there was no one more senior to do a 2-way with so I got to jump with the 'skygod' (who had about 100 jumps).
Skydives are expensive and so are coaching courses. Coaches deserve to be paid for their work. That said when a novice pays slot plus X for a coach jump "Breath Dude" is not a sufficient debrief. I you hire a professional you have the right to expect professional service.

[labrys 0]

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Coaches deserve to be paid for their work. That said when a novice pays slot plus X for a coach jump "Breath Dude" is not a sufficient debrief. I you hire a professional you have the right to expect professional service.

I know I'm too inexperienced to know and understand the "breath dude" school of training or lack thereof. The coaching class I took (Rob's) kicked my ass.

Owned by Remi #?

[Tonto 1]

I'm sorry your goat has been gotten.

I don't believe that Tandem dives and coach dives have anything on common.

As a former TM, I can tell you that strapping someone who has no grasp of consequence to your body and leaving the aircraft carries significant risk. It is a very safe way for the student to experience a first jump, but it is a very dangerous jump for the instructor. For me, there was little reward in Tandem. While the student is extatic on landing, you're unlikely to ever see them again. In contrast, I'm surrounded by former AFF students of mine at all levels of the sport. I often do free AFF. I would never do a free Tandem.

As for coaching, the dynamics are somewhat different. Each coach has already travelled the path of the student. Some coaches have travelled that path many times, in several different disiplines. For a jumper like me, in Africa, that can mean at least half a dozen trips to another continent, where I paid to be rated or goin experience in something.

Maybe I'm a money grabbing shylock, but I see university students paying to be taught. I see those who want to become pilots paying to be taught. I see martial arts students paying to be taught. I see people in gyms with personal trainers they are paying. I see golfers paying golf pros. I see patients paying doctors and I see drivers paying mechanics.

I've been jumping for 20+ years. I know some things that other people don't know. I've spent a great deal of money and time on my skydiving education, and there are many people in skydiving who have greater skills than I do.

I'm simply tired of spending years of my life teaching people skills for free that they allow to lapse when some pretty whuffo comes along. There is little commitment from the skydiving public. They're tourists, in and out in a decade or so. Why do they expect such commitment in return?

It seems little hypocrisy is present. The price is on the product. Every jumper can choose to pay it, or they can go to their expert friend and be taught for free.

This site is the exception, of course. None of the moderators are paid and this function can take several hours a day, often dealing with people who are seldom satisfied with what they get for nothing.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tdog 0]

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I'm simply tired of spending years of my life teaching people skills for free

Unless of course the mentality is "pay it forward" - and you received free coaching with the expectation, when it is time, you pay it forward...

[Tonto 1]

I don't understand. Could you explain this "Pay it forward" thing in a little more detail?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[BIGUN 1,061]

Varying opinions versus hypocrisy.

On the issue of tandems; I think its wrong to charge "by the pound" over "X"

I beleive a longer FJC builds a feeling of confidence, rather than a feeling of luck and would increase student retention.

On the issue of coaching and to answer Tonto's question. There was a time that we took new skydivers under our wing and didn't charge them for everything or even our slots to help them progress. There were those before us who helped us and out of respect for what they did for us and we should "Pass it forward."

On a final note; it depends on one's definition of success. I know many a DZO that have sacrificed financial success; but have ben successful in teaching thousands of students with minimal (2) student injuries and zero fatalities after 30 years of teaching. I know DZO's that are financially successful, but there student churn rate is high. And, finally, there's the few that have been able to realize both.

It's really not hypocrisy as much as differing opinions on viewpoints, kinda like packing a PC. There's about 100 different ways to do it, they all work... None 100% right, none 100% wrong. It just works for them.

I doubt there'll ever be a day where all skydivers agree on all things. Course that's what makes us all part of this great dysfunctional family of socially-disconnected misfits.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[rehmwa 2]

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Every jumper can choose to pay it, or they can go to their expert friend and be taught for free.

this is the best comment - nice

there's no hypocrisy, just stuff that happens and market forces that 'should' drive someone who pays to get something in return - it sounds like individual choice in the matter is directly in the hands of the experienced jumper and also in the hands of the customer (both for coaching and for unusual tandems)

as it should be.........

charge if you want for anything in the sport - but don't cry if someone else chooses to do it for free or if you don't get any takers

conversely - give it away for free - but don't bitch if someone else chooses to charge for the same thing and gets the business - it's none of your business

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NSEMN8R 0]

I don't really see the realtionship between coaching and tandems.

I'm guessing that most of the people who think it's unfair to charge extra for heavy tandems are either "Big" tandem masters who don't often get the pleasure of taking the 250 pounders all day long or not TMs at all so they have no idea what they're talking about.

I'll do free coach jumps anytime. Those are fun.

In general, big fat tandems are not as much fun as littler ones. I don't really think they're any more dangerous, but they are a lot more work. It sucks having them sitting all up on you in the plane and squeezing them out the door of a 182 is a pain in the ass sometimes. If I get a bunch of big ones in a row, I definitely notice it in the way my body feels when I'm done.

Right now we charge the same for everyone, but if they wanted to throw a couple extra bucks my way for hauling the heavy meat, I wouldn't complain.

Do you think it's fair if the big TM takes all of the 120 lb. little college chicks and the little guy has to take all the blobs because he won't overload the gear with them? I think the ones doing more work should make more money.

[riggerrob 558]

Not hypocrisy, rather two completely different businesses.
Tandem is hard work - the heavier the student, the harder you have to work - done by professionals who expect to get paid. Several of my colleagues have been forced to retire by painful, permanent damage to ankles, knees, spines, shoulders, etc.
As for the cute, young girls batting their eyes and asking for free tandems, my response is: "Ass, gas or grass, nobody rides for free!" Oh! And by the way, you will have to give some of that ass to the DZO in return for free use of his parachutes, airplanes and gasoline. By the way, his wife manifests, so how are you going to pull this off???

Coaching is a vastly different segment of the industry. Back int he good old days, good old boys used to coach for free and you usually got what you paid for. Ever since Rob Laidlaw started training coaches in the finer points of arrousal control, sports physiology, goal setting, nutrition, sports psychology, muscle memory, etc. the price has gone up. I still hear good old boys lamenting the days when coaches offered their services for free, I just rarely see good old boys offering their services for free any more.

The good old days were a long time ago on most North American DZs.

[tdog 0]

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I don't understand. Could you explain this "Pay it forward" thing in a little more detail?

t

From the movie Pay It Forward.

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If someone did you a favor - something big - something you could not do on your own - and instead of paying it back - you paid it forward to three people...


And the next day, they each paid it forward to three more...

And the day after that, those 27 people paid it forward to another three...


And each day, everyone in turn paid it forward to three more people...

In two weeks that comes to 4,782,969 people...

For skydiving - keep the number to three - but spread out the days to years because it takes a while before you can be a coach... It still means you could indirectly help 27 people in two years - if you told your students they had to (nothing should be forced, but instead "inspired") help others when it was time, in payment for your services...


I know this works in skydiving... Why? We have a huge population of Air Force cadets that jump at my home DZ. They don't charge each other for coaching, and they have progressed far. Most start jumping their sophomore or junior year in college, jump hard, and are coaching by their senior year. Every year the old coaches leave and the new ones start...

Ya, some might comment, "100 jumps and a coach rating" - but some of the best coaching I have seen has come from some of them. In fact, for a coach course I was an evaluator for a group. One guy had 70 jumps and was getting all the paperwork done to get his rating at 100 jumps. He diagnosed 100% of the mistakes I made and gave me solutions to fix them all. I was impressed...

Now, I agree there is a huge difference between the basic coaching of how to safely fall and win nationals in freefly, canopy, or 4way... But this canidate was able to fix my tumble out of the plane, my backsliding, my floating on the dock, and my tracking problems... That is what a 12 jump student might need.

[steveorino 7]

I was fortunate to learn under the system where the experience guys like ole Bob S. with his 6K jumps and BIGUN (yep he was one of the first to jump with me for nothing) "coached" me for free. I liked the old way.

However, I'm not one to protest against the Coach rating. Heck, I am one. I'm also an IAD instructor and TM. At SDA we usually charge coach's fee for categories G&H. More often than not, after that Coaches and Instructors jump for nada or at the most a slot. I enjoy that as well.

I usually take my cameras on the jumps too. I firewire any footage and give stills on a disk away too. While I'm concentrating on the student I can usually get a decent picture of them in freefall. To me, it is the best of both worlds.

steveOrino

[AMax 0]

IMHO the opinions about coaching are mixed up because well, the quality of coaching varies from place to place.
I started at small dropzone where all experienced instructors were busy most of the time working with AFF and tandem students and AFF graduates were getting "coaching" from USPA coaches who only had a few hundred jumps. Needless to say, the quality of their coaching was not that great (although the jumps were a lot of fun . I too would find outrageous to pay a significant coaching fee plus lift up ticket to someone who can barely fall straight down. Compare this with new generation of SDU coaches. I have seen many of them (including Rob himself) working with students. Just their time spend on the ground is worth extra dollar. Yes, it is more expensive, but on a long run, good quality coaching makes a difference between someone with 200 jumps who cannot consistently dock on a 4-way and a person with the same jumps numbers performing well on a 30-way.

[toolbox 0]

I was told years ago that a tandem was 10x safer for a first timer than to go by themselves,but 10x more dangerous for the instructor taking them than to go by themslves. After 8000+ tandems I would say that is about right on the nose. As far as coaching skydives,I feel if you want good quality help that you should pay for it. The skydivers who spend the time and money in persuit of a coaches ticket,and who take the job seriously,should get paid for a professional job. I also agree that there are greater risk skydiving with coaching customers than if skydiving with a acomplished skydiver. I have taken young jumpers out on coaching dives and had them take off tracking,wobble and whip a 180 right back at me just as one example of what can happen.
I think there was an incident not long ago involving a freefly coach and his customer colliding around breakoff. You do not have to use coaches to continue your skydiving career,but in most cases using a good coach will cost less money and less dives to reach the level of proficiency needed to participate in more challenging and rewarding skydives.

[steveorino 7]

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I beleive a longer FJC builds a feeling of confidence, rather than a feeling of luck and would increase student retention. .

Research I've studied and have done for a Master's thesis shows Skydivers’ reasons for making their first jumps are as varied as they are. Internal variables include: predispositions, goals, psychological states, and interpersonal influence. For many they are seeking one more thrill, others have an innate desire for adventure. Then some are simply socially compliant and their friends want to skydive. Some of these people would never have made a jump without the persuasion of a friend. This proposes group polarization, where the presence of peers changes the attitude from slightly positive to very positive. While compliance with the group’s expectation may be the primary motivation for the initial participation in a high-risk activity for these students, this hold over one’s decision making process diminishes after the initial experience. If after the first skydive they desire to make additional skydives, the motivating power to continue, typically switches from peer pressure to a desire to identify with a new subculture.

To me that says retention would be better benfited by going out of our way to include them into our sub culture. Not an easy task.

steveOrino

[labrys 0]

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Varying opinions versus hypocrisy.

Yes, I think you're right. And I've gotten a couple of PMs about this thread that have made me realize that I really don't have the experience necessary to form an opinion about this. I jump at one DZ pretty exclusivley and I've only been exposed to the coaching techniques there, which are all done SDU style.

I've never been around other styles of coaching and don't have a real idea how much of a difference SDU coaching has vs other methods. I paid for coached jumps all the way from AFF to getting my A license because that's the program where I learned. I wasn't even aware that other DZs did it differently until I started reading here.

Owned by Remi #?

[BIGUN 1,061]

I'm calling Dr. Gresham to see if I can be on your Thesis Review Board.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[steveorino 7]

hehe, you wish!

steveOrino

[Laszloimage 0]

I agree you made the point man!
-Laszlo-

[Ron 7]

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To me that says retention would be better benfited by going out of our way to include them into our sub culture. Not an easy task.

I feel the same way....Since you have spent some time on this, got any ideas?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bob.dino 0]

Really interesting post.

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To me that says retention would be better benfited by going out of our way to include them into our sub culture. Not an easy task.

I'd be interested in any insights you've gleaned into this.

[AggieDave 6]

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I'd be interested in any insights you've gleaned into this.

I've tried and tried a handful of different things. I've tried having serious skydiving videos playing at the DZ and explaining whats going on to tandem students. Stuff like 4-way competition, FF comps, swooping comps, etc.

I've tried boogie videos and other really fun skydiving videos.

I've tried explaining and explaining and explaining until my face was blue. I've answered every whuffo question you can think of with enthusiasm and truthful/thought out answers.

I've made sure that our students learned a little about the culture with some of the other "odd" traditions such as the "DZ pre-jump handshake" is being done to them as well, getting them to yell "Hey Asshole" in the plane just before jump run. Fun things like that.

I've made sure to bring my tandem student a beer when they were around after sunset load. Especially if they were on sunset load with me.

This is all done with decent training, even for the none Cat A/B tandems. Explaination of the introduction to skydiving, why the body position, having them help fly the canopy around, etc.

It really comes down to two things: personality and desire. The student will either stay or go. Nothing that a DZ, an instructor or anything else can do will "sell" someone on skydiving. If they have a desire, even a small desire, that desire can be fanned. If their personality doesn't allow them and the desire isn't there at all, they'll do their one skydive and move on with their whuffo lives.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[steveorino 7]

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Really interesting post.

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To me that says retention would be better benfited by going out of our way to include them into our sub culture. Not an easy task.

I'd be interested in any insights you've gleaned into this.

I've only recently written the thesis so no I haven't been able to study how to do that. Aggie Dave has great ideas. One idea I have to go along with his, is give away a self produced Skydiving vocabulary book with humorus illustrations.

It is almost impossible to predetermine who will move beyond group polarization and into a personal desire to join the skydiving community at first glance. However, any indication of that desire should be met with every effort to include them into our culture. Inviting them to stay for the activities that go on after the beer light would be a good first step.

steveOrino

[billeisele 122]

seems like we have 2 topics going here:

-tandems pay & we charge $10 for the heavies
-coaching means different things to different people, since i'm an instructor if i organize a skydive some call that coaching, yes we dirt dive, offer tips and debrief - these are free, if you want "real" coaching then i'll spend a lot more time pre-jump, it will be one-on-one with specific goals and you'll get an extensive bebrief - these are not free

2nd topic
- i beleive that one reason folks don't return is the fear of failure
- specific words of encouragement sometimes will give them that extra motivation to take the AFF class
-a recent 32ish married, non-athletic, female school teacher made a tandem, she was unusually calm and aware for a 1st jumper, she was encouraged to return for AFF training, after her 1st AFF jump (one of the top 10 best i've ever seen) my words to her were, "if you decide to not continue skydiving you will have missed a chance to do something that you will be very good at"
-she continues to excel
-the right words at the right time, if the desire is there and everything else falls into place - money, time, and the stuff already mentioned, etc., sometimes it works out

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.