DB Cooper

[councilman24 36]

Don't get too carried away. MODERN equipment doesn't handle 200 knot wind blasts too well unless we're ready for it. Modern equipment is routinely used a 150 mph plus in normal skydiving.

The kind of equipment the pioneer would have been wasn't that much different than military gear. It would have handled and would have been expected to handle the wind blast just as well.

My comment was ment to say don't expect that the NB6 didn't survive the exit just fine. It was designed to. In fact variations were used in ejection seats.

This is the kind of leap I see being made alot on here. If you think I mean something ask. You don't have to try to read between the lines when we're right here!

There are lots of reasons to take the NB6 instead of the pioneer. The NB6 could have been expected to be a pilot emergency rig (and that may have been its use). As such, it would have been packed by a rigger and could be expected to have a particular parachute in it. The Pioneer sport rig could have had any number of parachutes in it, could have been packed by anybody, could have been "field" packed meaning stuffed in but not ready to jump, etc.

If handed a sport main container packed up and a pilot reserve container packed up (and maybe sealed by a rigger?) and I was only taking one I would chose the "known" pilot rig over the "unknown" sport rig, even today. In this situation, demanding parachutes for a getaway, I certainly would take a rigger sealed parachute. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS SEALED! Does anybody?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[snowmman 3]

remember my post about guessing my age Orange1?
You're the first to be absolutely wrong.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say. I'm looking for the details of what caused the 45-50 estimate. Something did, not just a "feeling". I'd like to know whether it was mostly the balding, mostly the speech or what? I can't tell from what Ckret says so far, which is kind of content-free..it's mostly "just trust me I read the reports"

***
er yes older folk do but generally not the 45-50 age group! Ditto for the bushy eyebrows comment. How many people in this age group do you actually know???
***

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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I wonder how far in advance that the ticket was purchased

It was purchased the day of. Right around 2 pm (the time might be off a half hour or so, I'm not sure).

MANY empty seats on that flight.

I wouldn't draw any inference from the time of the purchase. I doubt he woke up at 8 am, said "man this is a crappy life. I know! I'll hijack a plane!"

BUT, the choice of Thanksgiving Eve has to have some significance. I'd have a hard time if you told me this was just any other day... no no, a holiday certainly is different than any other day.

If anything, he would have expected a trimmed down LE numbers (helps get away with it) and possibly the Thanksgiving Holiday to assist him in the getaway.

If the Thanksgiving Holiday was to help him in the getaway, then he PLANNED to be on foot in the middle of the night/following day.

FURTHER, day of purchase could mean a few other things... it would give him a chance to make sure there were no other passengers next to him. If he purchases a month in advance, who's to say the flight doesn't get crowded or they put someone next to him?
Second, it may indicate opportunities to purchase the ticket. If he lived down the street (and there are people who believe that) he'd have an opportunity to purchase the day before, the week before, etc, but if he were from out of town, he'd have to arrive BEFORE going to the ticket counter and purchasing the ticket.

There's no way he'd use a travel agent (did they have them back then?), he'd buy direct from the counter (less chance of being noticed/remembered).

[quade 3]

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MANY empty seats on that flight.

Do you have a number?

I kinda find it odd that on the day before Thanksgiving, traditionally one of the MOST traveled days of the year, that this particular flight would have "many" empty seats.

I also find it odd that if, as you suggest, Cooper wanted a flight with very few people on it, that he'd pick that day.

Edited to add:

Ok, found it . . . 36. So, roughly 1/3 full.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I wonder how far in advance that the ticket was purchased (as a measurement of how much planning went into this).

happythoughts,

This is an example of why I am so curious about each poster's age and the way it molds their perceptions.

I'm guessing you are in your early 30's.

In 1971 there were no ATM, credit cards were rare (I goy my 1st in 1969), people used cash, and point of sale was most often point of purchase.

He paid $18.xx for the ticket (probably about like $140 now), At that time, if you bought tickets in advance they came from a travel agent who went to the airport and picked them up (no office computers, unless you had an IBM 1620 in your office).

All I'm saying is: Your age changes your perspective on the case and what you think in a probable course of action would be (just using you for an example) Ckret, the same is true for you!

Sluggo_Monster

PS Edit: I think it was established that he bought the ticket just before boarding. Ckret?

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[happythoughts 0]

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I'm guessing you are in your early 30's.

I understand that there were no computerized ticketing, internet, etc.

This is the value. From other reading, many bank robbers go to another state to commit their crime because the search will center on that location.

Remember all the discussion of going to motels and comparing guests to the picture of Cooper?

If he was from out of state, he probably wouldn't drive 4 hours to buy a ticket a month in advance.

A local could do that easily, but may not because it is another opportunity for identification.

Since there was no disguise (mask, etc), he'd have to accept that several people would be able to give similar descriptions anyway.

When committing a crime without the use of a mask, I would favor doing it at a different location than where I lived. ("Hey... isn't that Bob from down the street?")

Another state could mean Oregon, California, or even Canada. It would be tough for the FBI to search for the fingerprints of a Canadian back in the day.

However, I would visit the site and plan my escape.
The ticket could be purchased in advance during that time. Motel info during a pre-purchase date would be of value.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Sluggo,

My question would be, what was TYPICAL? Was it typical for people to show up the day of and buy tickets?

quade, I'm not sure how it was back then, but the flight was from PDX to SEA... a distance most families would drive instead of fly. But very good observation... why was Cooper convinced this would work, in other words, how did he know the flight would not be jammed packed?

After pondering it further, it makes too much sense that he purchased the ticket the same day. Why?

Because how much information can we conclude from him purcasing on the same day? None. All it proves is that he was in the airport at 2pm, something we already knew just from him boarding the plane.

If he purchased the night before, we'd know he was in Portland the night before. If he purchased a week ahead of time, we know he was at PDX then...

The better question to figure out is, how did he know this route would have a 727? Was it a guess? Was it luck? Or did he call a NW ticket counter at some point (prior) and ask the question over the phone when it wouldn't seem too weird? If it were me, I'd find out what airline, what time, what type of plane, and I'd do it at the minimum a few days in advance over the phone... all I'd have to say is that I have a fear of people and if they could tell me what flights have few people and use a (smaller) 727...

Now, I don't necessarily think this happened, I'm just saying it could have happened.

[snowmman 3]

there's been the long debate about shoes etc.
And why he would not have been noticed in his suit.

I'll just throw this out as a theory then. Note it's good to state because it overrides a theory that he jumped with a change of clothes. And how he escaped detection on the ground. I'm picturing him walking around for a bit before he acquires ground transportation (private or public)

The time period for acquiring the new clothes would be unknown.
I was wondering about the idea of having others provide you the tools for your crime is really smart.
i.e. acquiring stuff on the fly as opposed to bringing it with you.

Then there's no evidence left about how you acquired the tools (parachutes). It's kind of like doing a bank robbery with hostages, and demanding they send in the gear for you to cut the vault and also make your getaway. I guess that is common... when people demand transportation away from the hostage scene. I guess that's exactly what cooper did. demand transportation from the hostage scene. His case worked.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Safe…PLF (You young whipper-snapper),

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how did he know the flight would not be jammed packed?

He knew it wouldn’t be packed, because no plane was ever packed in 1971. The airlines were subsidized by the guv’ment and each airline had 10 times the routes they really needed. In fact, students flew at half-price (I think) and so did people who were traveling to a family member’s funeral or to be with them on their death-bed. Now, it may have been a little different on the Bos-Wash (Boston to Washington) corridor. I remember an Arlo Guthrie routine about a student being dogged by Ckret an FBI agent. The student gets on the plane so the FBI agent buys a ticket for the same flight and boards the plane, this causes the student to get “bumped” and the FBI agent takes a flight he doesn’t want.

It was not at all unusual for a passenger to ask “What was the equipment?” Meaning what kind of plane will it be. Of course it was subject to change if you bought in advance. So, time of departure purchase would actually be the only way to “absolutely guarantee” that you got a B-727.

Now days, if you go to an airline ticked counter just before a flight, ask what kind of plane it is, purchase a one-way ticket with cash, you will get pulled aside by TSA. Just like the Cooper Vane, DB is partially responsible for that profile being suspicious.

Sluggo_Monster (Feeling very old right now)

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[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Very helpful as usual Sluggo.

Now we just need Ckret to post the statements by the ticket agent & Ms. Hancock.

[skyjack71 0]

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There is a VAST difference between seeing things from a different perspective and just making things up so a theory will fit a bit better and injecting made up facts into the mythology that will only confuse people later.

Right on Quade - I agree. The truth doesn't change just because someone wants it to be different or that it makes more sense to the reader. This is WHY I have refused to let someone do a movie or book regarding Duane. Has to be the truth or not at all.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 3]

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He knew it wouldn’t be packed, because no plane was ever packed in 1971.

Unless you have some sort of proof of this, I'm going to call this claim into question just based on when and why NWA started purchasing larger aircraft, notably the 747, to replace smaller aircraft like the 707 and 727; 1970. (1)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Albert18 0]

A question for Ckret.

With Cooper being 40+ years old in 1971, if still alive, he is very much a senior citizen today. Add to this the fact the FBI thinks he died that night. Therefore is there any chance his indictment will be removed? This would be an excellent way to move this investigation forward. With all threat of prosecution removed, if nobody comes forward with new information, then I think it is safe to say your theory is pretty sound.

And if someone really needs to pay, well, get a little extra rough with the next bank robber. Make them crawl.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I have no proof, just the memory of flying twice a week from The Bay Area to Orange County.

Remember, I said all airlines had more routes than they needed. If they bought more aircraft, it was to run the routes not because they were full of passengers. More routes, more guv'ment $$$$. If the tickets don't pay for the gas, who cares? Uncle Sugar has the money.

Then "Deregulation" came and the airlines became a private business instead of a public utility.

My opinion, of course.

Sluggo_Monster

BTW: How old are you?

BTW: In 1773 or 1974 (during the "oil crisis"}, I flew on a 727 from Ontario to SFO with a crew of 6 and 6 passengers. Would that happen today?

(It's a true story, but a special case, don't take that too seriously.)

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[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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then I think it is safe to say your theory is pretty sound.

Why do you say that? You don't think a guy at or pushing 50 could have survived the jump and yet died of natural causes in the last 36 yrs?

Keep in mind, he smoked. Some actually think that was "cover"... but regardless, he smoked, jumped out of planes in the middle of the night, it's not like his lifestyle would get him deductions on his life insurance.

Pushing 90 and the guy would be expected to still be alive even with all that smoking and dangerous stuff?

[Orange1 0]

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remember my post about guessing my age Orange1?
You're the first to be absolutely wrong.

I wasn't guessing your age at all. I had actually put you in this age group... till you made what imo are fairly ridiculous comments about nostril and ear hairs and bushy eyebrows as "proof" that the age estimate might have been correct. I know many people in this age group and none of them display any of those. One even has (naturally) no gray hair

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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In 1971 there were no ATM, credit cards were rare (I goy my 1st in 1969), people used cash, and point of sale was most often point of purchase.

He paid $18.xx for the ticket (probably about like $140 now), At that time, if you bought tickets in advance they came from a travel agent who went to the airport and picked them up (no office computers, unless you had an IBM 1620 in your office).

Um... I may be wrong but I seem to recall that the travel agent handwrote (filled in the boxes) on the ticket and the booking was done via some kind of telex or telex-type machine. (Think about it: how could you possibly book a multi-leg ticket otherwise?)
I distinctly remember arriving at the airport one day to find that the travel agent had written the flight time in wrong.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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BTW: In 1773 or 1974 (during the "oil crisis"}, I flew on a 727 from Ontario to SFO with a crew of 6 and 6 passengers. Would that happen today?

(It's a true story, but a special case, don't take that too seriously.)

It's a true story that you flew a 727 during an oil crisis in 1773?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[quade 3]

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BTW: How old are you?

Let's just say that at the time in question I would have been considered a man by some religions, but not quite one by legal definitions and was happy the day the draft ended.

Yes, I flew on passenger planes in that time period.
No, I don't recall any of the flights being only 1/3 full.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ckret 0]

The indictment stays, I have no input on that. I guess if it were up to me I would quash it and somehow have an order in place that any money made from book and movie deals would have to first be paid with interest to the victims.

I believe I have posted the witnesses descriptions (including Hancock) on the old thread.

Snowman, you may have found an opening, no one was ever asked why they thought Cooper was 45 to 50 years old.

They also weren't asked why they thought he was 180 or had brown hair or why they thought his suite was dark or why they thought he was 6' tall. Age is a descriptor just as height and weight, we approach our estimations of those attributes in the same manner.

If you want to rule out the age because they did not state when asked, "how old do you think he was?" and the answer was, "I know that on an average 45 year old male, the mid face has descended 5 mm and the skin folds commonly called wrinkles deepen by 2mm and this subject exhibited those characteristic" knock yourself out, it does open the door to many more options with regard to suspects.

I have no idea (Larry mumbling to himself) how I allowed myself to get sucked onto this but I am pulling myself out. If you have a question I will answer it the best I can. I will leave the rest to the genius of this forum, I am simply out of energy.

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

I am not old enough to know this answer. Was there assigned seating back then? Was Cooper in his assigned seat the whole time? And how close was the closest passenger seated to him? Sluggo, anyone, i not find the seat assignments in the file.

Sluggo, before you ask, i am hitting the big 40 in a couple of months and you know what i do when i am not watching you guys chase DB. Do i fit your profiling?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

The only descriptions mentioned were from Mucklow and Schaffner. I don't care about his description, we have that already; someone arguing against that is like a dog chasing their tail.

I was interested in the actual statements. If you can't post, that's okay, I was hoping you'd remember Sunday's post when you said you'd post it Monday.

I'd love to see the statements made by Simmonds & Hancock, and any others that might be interesting (ticket agent).

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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It's a true story that you flew a 727 during an oil crisis in 1773?

God! No wonder I feel so old today!

da Slug

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[happythoughts 0]

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he didn't say 4 "nearly identical" descriptions. There
are two bins of descriptions
A) 2 nearly identical
B) 2 very similar

After defining the differences between "nearly identical" and "very similar", perhaps you can waste more time giving us the definition of what "is" is.

There was a book called "The Falcon and the Snowman".

The Falcon was a falcon hobbyist and son of an FBI employee. The Snowman was a drug dealer, career criminal, and airline hijacker (ok, I made that part up).

Good to see you guys getting back together.

[ryoder 1,384]

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BTW: In 1773 or 1974 (during the "oil crisis"}, I flew on a 727 from Ontario to SFO with a crew of 6 and 6 passengers. Would that happen today?

(It's a true story, but a special case, don't take that too seriously.)

It's a true story that you flew a 727 during an oil crisis in 1773?

We should be able to verify this with AirTwardo.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.