DB Cooper

[Ckret 0]

I hate to keep referring to the past but it will save me time to say, read the posts on the old thread these things about missing persons was discussed.

It would be a huge help if people would state what facts they based their theory on. For example, "I don't think this was Coopers first jump." What facts from the event lead you to conclude this was not Coopers first jump?

If the answer is, "I just believe thats what happened." Great, then everyone can read your post for what it is, an interesting thought that may spark something but it is based on nothing factual.

I really do believe if we come up with a formula for posting theories:

Theory - Cooper had little to no jump experience.

Facts to support theory

- Cooper jumped at night in sub standard conditions

- Cooper did not ask for specific equipment for the jump.

- Cooper used non jumper language two fronts and two backs

- Cooper destroyed a working reserve over an obviously marked training reserve.

- Cooper never specified a flight path when the crew could have taken four different ones given Coopers demands

- Cooper never asked for updates from the crew for conditions, location, speed of the craft

- Cooper chose an unpadded NB6 with no sleeve over and padded sport model with a sleeve.

- Cooper tied a 20 pound bag to his waist, not secured to his body.

From here I state my theory based on the above facts and what they mean to me. I thin if some of you do this you will discover your not basing much of your thoughts on facts

[377 20]

Ckret format:

Theory:

Cooper may have known something about 727s but was not trained as a pilot.

Facts:

1. Did not specify flight path unambiguously
2. Did not use pilot "lingo"
3. Thought door controlled from cockpit (pilot would have researched this more thoroughly)
4. Did not insist on transponder being shut off
5. Did not carry VHF radio (even in 71, a cheap $19 analog Radio Shack VHF transistor radio could have been used to monitor comms so he would know what was really being said to and by crew).

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Quote

Cooper tied a 20 pound bag to his waist, not secured to his body.

Do we know this for sure?

It's been suggested because he was tying the bag to his waist when Tina saw him last. She doesn't know for sure if he finished tying to his waist, or if he was making another loop to tie it to his chest as well as his waist. He did cut two lengths of suspension line, he would have a lot of excess on that second one.

It's an assumption, not a fact. A good assumption, but still an assumption.

[377 20]

Theory: Cooper had researched 727's ability to deploy door in flight, possibly accessing documents at Boeing.

Facts:

1. If door could not be deployed for jump, capture was virtually certain.
2. Airline flight manuals for 727-100 and -200 have no info about door deployment in flight
3. Info was available somewhere, MPLS FLT OPS was able to access it when queried by 727 crew.
4. Cooper demanded appropriate airspeed, flaps, and unpressurized flight for door deployment.
5. Boeing has info on in flight door deployment tests, was accessed by Don Kirlin to get FAA approval for WFFC 727 jumps.
6. So far we are unable to find any other source for in flight door deployment info besides Boeing.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

- Cooper never specified a flight path when the crew could have taken four different ones given Coopers demands

Ckret,



I'm calling you out on this one, name the four Low Altitude routes to get to Sacramento or Reno that existed on November 24, 1971.

I can name 4 possible combinations; V-23, V-27, V4 and V25, and V4, v21, and V-23.

The last two are ridiculous choices.

Note: if you cite any three-digit airways, then show me a source that says that route(s) existed and were published (not approved) prior to 11/24/1971.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
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NORJAK Forum

[Ckret 0]

I have two friends that are Captains with Alaska based out of SeaTac. I just left messages for them to get the exact details. Stand-by to be "double secret called out."

[skyjack71 0]

377 your last post got me to thinking about WHY and HOW.

Boeing had several fatal crashes: I am only going to list the ones I consider important for my purposes.
* 08/16/65 Chicago
* 11/08/65 Kentucky
* 11/11/65 Salt Lake
* 07.19/67 Henderson N.C.
* 01/18/67 Los Angles CA
* 09/21/67 Mexico

What if Cooper had a family member who died in one of the crashes.

Duane had a wife and a daug he saw for the last time in the mid 1950's per a letter sent to the family on the death of his Father mailed from San Quentin. The child was born around 1946 - Duane was sent to SanQuentin in 1951 -52 and was released 1958. In order for Duane to have seen this child at the age of 8 - it would have to have been when he was incarcerated.

Now I know I am taking a stab at air, but what if his wife or child or both had been on any of the above crashes - there were fatalities. There was also survivors - where they compensated enough by the airlines?

Their death might explain why I have NEVER been able to find them. Duane mentioned his daughter - Zona several times and the mother"s name was Edna. Although I was told an attempt was made to reach his daug. between 1962 and 1965 --- I have no proof of this ---again a story told to me by someone who knew Duane.

Mexico was a chosen Destination by the Hijacker.

Chicago was an address on some mail recieved by the family from the mother.

Salt Lake City - Duane knew well and it was obvious he had some connection to the Mormon religion. He did mention a funeral in Salt Lake.

Los Angles, CA. A place Duane was known to frequent often and what is the location of San Diego Aircraft Corp...and Souhern Air Lines in 1960's.
These are two places that Duane or one of his aliases was employed at one time.

These crashes - what was the origination , stops and destinations.?

The names of ALL on board along with survivors and fatalities needs to be located.

Duane was in prison at Jefferson, Mo at the time of all of the above crashes, He possibily had a connection with the crashes I mentioned. Frankly I lean toward the two crashes in Nov of 65...

Out of the BOX and it makes sense. He would have been in prison when he read about the crash - maybe his daughter or someone he knew was among the list of injured or killed.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[n467us 0]

Interesting... not sure if I can visualize that being a motive - here's why:

> No mention of this to anyone on board, I think someone seeking such vengeance would have been vocal about it, and probably off balance.

> I think this type of extortionist would have opted for a getaway car w/ full tank of gas -vs- the jump.

> Probably would have asked for a few more dollars (even though we know in '71 the $200K was like a million dollars today)

Even if it is a stretch, it re-opens the question of motive. Was this just a cash grab? Possibly a thrill crime? Did Cooper have debts to settle?

[n467us 0]

Good points... IN FACT nobody actually knows what Cooper was wearing, how he was rigged or anything else, at the time of exiting the 727...

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Interesting... not sure if I can visualize that being a motive - here's why:.

No you missed my reasoning - he needed the money to help the individual or survivor. He needed to survive and not get caught if he was to meet his goal.

1. Why mention the reason - if he got caught he would not be able to help the person and the money would have been given back to the Airlines.

2. A get-away car - he would surely have been caught.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Jo,

The destination would be of less importance because he intended to jump.

When told that the aircraft would not go to Mexico without refueling, he then requested Phoenix as a refueling point. Does that ring any bells?

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Jo, my only problem with the revenge theory is it contradicts the conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory about keeping it quiet would contradict the revenge theory (i.e. conspiracy = on behalf of someone else). The revenge theory is more plausible. If you go to the link I posted somewhere yesterday I think about the info on Boeing 727s - it includes details of all the crashes/incidents involving these planes which may give you some more detail of what you are looking for. But surely it would make more sense to target the airline responsible for the crash, not someone else just because they (like just about any airline in those days i guess) used 727s?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

CKRET
please comment on what sluggo found on Dan Cooper the storybook hero. Did the FBI Investigate this? It would be helpful to know when the FBI has looked into somthing. Not divulging non published info is not what i am asking. It would help a lot of people if you could just say " The FBI has look at this" or "no the FBI has not investigated this" People that don't know this case as good as you and Safe and it would help to know.

[Ckret 0]

I have not found any mention of it in any of the case files, but there hundreds of them.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ckret,

I just spent about an hour composing a post in reply to #1126 stating in no uncertain terms how completely full of S++t your post was.

Then, just before posting, I went back and re-read the post. Well, hmmm, could Sluggo ever make a mistake? No! My record of a flawless life is still intact (because I didn’t send it). What I discovered, was ,your use of the term “facts” made me perceive your post as bull-hockey.

So, with your permission, I’m going to post what you are trying to say, but with a different emphasis. (Actually, I don’t have your permission, I was just being polite, and I’m 2300 miles away, so… there!)

I believe you mean:

It would be helpful if everyone, when stating their beliefs and interpretation of published data, took the time and effort to state the basis for their assumptions. For example:
I think Cooper was an inexperienced jumper, because I don’t believe an experienced jumper would not specify exactly what equipment he wanted.

Is this okay? I mean would this clean up the discussions?

And, by the way, if anyone, while complying with the above request, uses the word “paradigm”, I will send the VooDoo monster to cut off your legs.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Ckret 0]

You have it some what right. I think it would be best to state the facts before you ever get started putting sentences together. Several police departments have gone to this type of report writing.

- I responded to 123 1st St S

- On arrival I saw two white males.

- male 1 was holding a black handgun

- I order male 1 to drop the handgun on the ground

and so on.

It seems as if some want to almost eliminate or disregard fact from the Cooper case. In this case there are two kinds of fact; reported fact and known fact which has been discussed on the old thread.

I think it would add clarity to simply state in bullet form the facts used to support a theory. One that comes to mind that I drew a blank on (not surprising since it was not my theory) is that DB Cooper got his military training in Southeast Asia. There are no facts from the events of the highjacking to support this. So maybe the poster, having to state facts before the theory, would put more thought in before posting. And don't get me wrong, it is fun to explore out-of-the- box stuff, but it also clogs up the message and we need a way to separate the two.

[jumpin_Jan 1]

I'm not supposed to tell you this but,
He was a renegade double naught!
He saw the chase planes.
He took money, a flare, suspension line, and a pilot chute,
and made a thermal decoy that would also drop money as it burned. (rate of descent unknown)
He spotted from the rear side windows using reflected moonlight, highways/car lights, also staying warm.
He used warm water in the lav to rinse off the dark coloring on his RXglasses.
(his only known physical flaw, victim of aging and at about 40 it hit his eyesight)
He used ice from the galley on his fat lip caused by the ricocheting pilot chute during salvage.
He used warm water in the lav to re-heat his hands, delaying numbness from the cold ff.
He had a rubberband attached inside each shoe, over his big toe. :)
He left a couple of dye bundles behind, 1 on the steps and 1 wedged in the stair lever,
for the crew to find inflight and/or to fall out.
He closed the door behind him creating the turb. that threw off the suits timeline 4 minutes.
He kept one eye closed from 1 hour prior, further protecting night vision in at least one eye.
His 'bomb' detonator is also his chest mount instrument panel with stopwatch and alti.
He rolled off the step and did a perfect style series (never waste an $18 lift).
He deployed, as planned, in a ridge wave from the wind and mountains, (yep with a round!)
His DZ choice was simple, within walking distance of any rail line.
He rode the rails to stashed water transport.
He went upstream to his 'rent to own' marina moored yacht.
He paid another months rent.
He went to Alices for turkey dinner.
He motored his yacht to the Pacific a day or so later.
He tossed identifiable(to the leased boat) items overboard completing another alias/tragedy/theft.
He set sail and went over the horizon to his next gig.
He told me this personally on my death bed in Nigeria and gave me his bank account # and a key to his lockbowl.
Please resp[end me abruptly, I go at your DZ last month and we can mount horny gorilla every day!
:)
..............................................

On a 'slightly' more serious line of thought,
I have a few questions, WAG's, opinions, ox-goring, and oddness to add.

I read both threads twice and then some,
Another suggestion to re-read will likely be forthcoming,
pre-emptively ignored. :)
IF YOU ARE TIRED OF REPEAT QUESTIONS make a FAQ.
Bitchin about repeats rarely works in theese situations.
(defending the repeats is in same category, I am guilty)
Without some kind of summary posts or rounding up of facts,
people forget what they read 30 pages ago.
I took notes 2nd. pass, but not enough.
Some of the questions have been answered many times,
but the data has been left behind buried in the thread.

I won't touch who DB is now or was after the jump, I'll leave that to Art Bell and Richard Hoagland types.
I consider that the path to folly, not the answers I seek.
Other than how WHO relates to HOW, idontwannaknow WHO, iwannaknow _HOW_.
...............................................

re: Air Stair/door
Did the stairs lock or float when 'down'?
Did he close the door before he jumped? (tied perhaps)
Evidence of suspension line burns on door, handrail, hydraulic legs, etc?
Were stairway lights off?
Did he make a static line? decoy?
The pics in this thread don't have much detail.
One pic looked like the turbine exhaust was damaged, was it?
The example pic that _I_ understood to be showing massive damage,
looks like perfect stairs and a missing turbine, elevator, and rudder.
(they prolly have they safety meetings up there) :)

re: cannibalized canopy
What tools used?
How many lines missing and what lengths?
Did the system have a pilot chute and if so is it missing?
Ripcord missing?
Did he salvage any fabric?

re: chase planes
Did chase planes see lowered stairs?
Did _they_ think DB might have detected them?
Did he try to fuck with them if he did?
Were the shades down, did he cover the side door windows?

re: bathroom visit
Where is the door hinge?
Could he see fore or aft with the door cracked open?
When? just before jump or before gearing up?
Were lights off in lav?
Is there any reason to suspect he was injured prior?

re: weather
What was the weather SUPPOSED to be?
How cloudy/foggy was it and at what altitude were the cloud bottom/tops?

re: suit coat
Did it conceal a harness with attachment points?

re: sunglasses
Rx? did he always have them on or off when reading?
Was there use ever inconsistant with disguise?
Was there use consistant with protecting night vision on jump run?
Did he request cabin lights dimmed? Nav lights/strobes on or off?

re: smoking
If he was 40-50 and a smoker, did he have a cough/hack?
Is there observation indicating he was not a regular smoker?
Matches and/or lighter, Zippo or Bic?
where did he keep his smokes?
How did he hold them? thumb and index, in V of index and middle, or tip of index and middle?
Was he calm enough during a hijack to let the ash get long?
Was he messy with ashes?
How long would his supply last at rate of consumption?

re: moon
It was 1st. 1/4 on the 25th.
(almost 1/2 a moon in laymans terms)
Moonset was @ 11:05 or so.
The moon was high in the South West at exit time.
Part of the plan or co-inky-dink?

re: money
Rubberbands do turn to powder and/or goo.
Some money may have been used as a decoy by DB.
Objects tossed out the door could get caught in a burble and not fall out for a long while.
DB with sunglasses may not have noticed.
Jumpers been droppin they toys for a while.
Sometimes farmers return said toys and jumpers go "WOW! you live how far away?"
(while defending spoting skills and tapping alti wondering if it can be returned to service)
Rivers bring heavy sand up to the bars often. (on wild drunken dates even)
What is the float time of sand?
How many wet/dry cycles are involved?
Some fish survive the trip thru some dredges btw.
What about critters draging a carcass with money attached?

re: briefcase/bomb
Anything else seen in briefcase besides a bomb?
Did it appear heavy?
Flare/dynamite or smoke canister size sticks or blob of material?

re: timeline
What indications as to flexibility of his plan and/or tolerances to be maintained?
Obviously there is an energy/awareness limit for humans that sleep.

re: observed attitude
Was he polite to everyone or did he have favorites?
Paranoia, healthy amount (they _were_ after him!), too much, not enough?

re: revenge/grudge
If a grudge was involved, faked suicide may have been the motivator. (real or otherwise)
Do we believe him?
Did he lie chronically or only as needed for the job?
He may have been in a wierd 'forbidden' personal relationship that went sour.
(wrong religion/race/sex/politics/economic status)
The nature of the relationship might prevent the 'victim' from speaking up.
He did not kill anyone (that we know of yet) or permanently ruin any expensive toys.

re: off the wall
Was he a homicide bomber that lost his nerve and came up with a last minute plan to escape from his cult alive?

.................
Wild Assed Guesses

iNTp(profit) or possibly iNTj(grudge)

An introvert with unusual discipline regarding secrets.

When to pull?
If he saw or FEARED the chase planes and he had previous jumps I say he hummed it.
(ie:smuggler-jumpers go low, sometimes too low)
If he was _more_ worried about the landing than being shot I say he pulled according to plan or high.

If he somehow got 2 canopies out the calculated drift may be too short.
Chute happens.

The turbulance assumed to be exit time may not be.
From experience, 'near the door' you can _feel_ and hear people exiting,
away from door you do not notice as much the pressure waves. (stairs removed)
If the hydraulics on the stairs were of the 'float' type in the open position,
then he may have had to lower the stairs repeatedly as they would tend to be pushed closed by the wind.
I posit that this would be felt in the airframe but not an exiting jumper.
If the Hy lines were of sufficient diameter,
he may have had to fashion a string or wedge to operate the lever/pump while on the lower stairs.
If he squeezed out partial stair deployment then he was really fuckin close to the turbine exhaust!

***
If he was thinking night vision that was part of the plan all along.
If he was _not_ protecting his night vision he is/was a fool cause he _had_ dark sunglasses.
***

The moon was not full for landing, but it would be similar at next holiday, if holidays mattered.
He may have wanted darkness after midnight.
It must have been in tolerance, cause he did do it.

His source of airstair data may have been a fluke and/or wrong even.
lots of experts on every subject can be found at beer:30.
He may have considered in flight cargo ramps and airstairs as the same thing.
It was ultimately 'good enough' but may have been flawed.
I toured a few cockpits as a child when me granny was flying. (no turkish prisons though)
Back in the day ppl were assumed not to all have ill intent.
Today it's kiss em at the curb and they fend for selves thru airport.

I wonder if he ended up in tow. (for a while)
ie: deployed on step into burble or over engineered a static line,

He could have been a smuggler that lost a load and was in desperate need of funds for health reasons.
His creditors may have planted him anyways for bringing marked cash for payment.
This would motivate silence in the matter too.

Pull High/low/no, alive/dead, mastermind/fool, did he spot/time his exit, or just go with the flow???

Entertaining thread :)
Thx DB wherever you are!

PULL!
jumpin_Jan

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[Ckret 0]

Now thats a post!!!! great stuff but I answered all of that on another thread.

I edited the post to put in one of those icons so you would realize i was joking around. "Co-winky-dink" you have one of those too, mine just turned 12

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo,

The destination would be of less importance because he intended to jump.

When told that the aircraft would not go to Mexico without refueling, he then requested Phoenix as a refueling point. Does that ring any bells?

Sluggo_Monster

YES it does! He had a sisten-in-law who lived in Phoenix. His wife "of the times" told me that he left her in Phoenix one time while he went to CA and WA.
He had told her that he needed to go take care of some matters involving an inheritance. But his parents had died in 54 and 56. The yr. of this I do not know - except I believe it to be around 65 or 66 when they had bolted from CO after the FBI came looking for Duane.

There was a car in CO - this car was stored in a warehouse when the FBI came looking for Duane - they left the car on the side of the road, but obtained another one for their escape. They left the stored car on the side of the road somewhere in Kansas.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[GreenLight 5]

"He could have been a smuggler that lost a load and was in desperate need of funds for health reasons.
His creditors may have planted him anyways for bringing marked cash for payment.
This would motivate silence in the matter too. "

So far, this scenerio impresses me the most.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[blacksha 1]

I just took the time to read the original thread.

I think ckret and DB cooper, solved or unsolved, is good for the community. But, it would be cool if it could be solved...

As a skydiver Quade, and a young one, yes, I admit, I think it would be good for the skydiving community and for the case to have its own forum. Knowing that skydiving is hurting membership wise, a little publicity on this case wouldn't help but to get more people interested. But perhaps you might be one of those people (and really I have no idea, so no offense intended) who feels the less skydivers out there, the better.

ckret, Safe, and other sleuths that have no jumps by their names--have you guys done any jumps yet? ckret, I saw an earlier post of yours mentioning a tandem...have you done it?

I'm not sure it would help you solve the case but it would give you an idea how reliable parachutes are these days...most accidents are due to the mistakes. Which it sounds like DB could have made a few. But all in all, if he was a really skilled individual, he could have gotten away with it.

Now if parachutes were anywhere near as reliable (even without reserve) back then, your chances were 1 in 1000 (total estimate), the survival was all up to DB Cooper.

Anyway, no more opinions until I have a chance to answer all of the known facts released by ckret.

Lonne

[quade 3]

Quote

As a skydiver Quade, and a young one, yes, I admit, I think it would be good for the skydiving community and for the case to have its own forum.

This has been discussed before. This will not happen.

Quote

Knowing that skydiving is hurting membership wise, a little publicity on this case wouldn't help but to get more people interested.

If we gave the topic any MORE publicity, it wouldn't need its own forum, it would need its own cable news channel. As for it generating more actual members of the skydiving community, uh, gee, maybe we should get the USPA to start a forum.

Quote

But all in all, if he was a really skilled individual, he could have gotten away with it.

Now if parachutes were anywhere near as reliable (even without reserve) back then, your chances were 1 in 1000 (total estimate), the survival was all up to DB Cooper.

Have you made your night jump yet?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[blacksha 1]

No Quade, not yet. (night jump)

Of course I know its very dangerous and I'll do my night jump on my own schedule...I'm in no rush.

And of course that will formulate my opinion some more...

Lonne

[blacksha 1]

Quade, have you done any survival in the forest?

[quade 3]

Quote

Quade, have you done any survival in the forest?

Yes, actually. Spent a week in the forest with nothing much more that a canteen and a knife.

Survival -training- isn't the same thing as survival.

A parachute jump today, even from a jet during the day, isn't the same thing as out the back of a jet with borrowed gear above an overcast where the spot isn't known into rugged terrain you can't see at night.

If you think he had a high probability of survival, then I think that you haven't really thought his jump through very well.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver