DB Cooper

[speedy 0]

Yeah, I know you did not accuse him of lying. I did not want too either. I just was not sure how to put it.

Either way, there seems to be some confusion concerning the canopy found which I would expect the FBI to clear up.

Maybe they have cleared it up and just not informed us/or the media.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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makes me think that he was more intent to "show" somebody, or get revenge on somebody

Very strong possibility there. Certainly I think $$ was a huge motivator. The $200,000 might be significant. You can add this to your profile, Cooper was not greedy and was not a mean person.

"Ah! The audicity! How could you say something like that?"

Well, the flight attendants described him as such, and Cooper actually reached into his ransom and handed Tina $2,000.

Cooper said he had a grudge. Was it just repartee or was he being truthful?

Could be either. If he had a grudge, the people most harmed by this crime:
NW Airlines: the experience itself, negative publicity
Insurer: $200,000
FBI: they never caught him (for this crime anyway)
Cowlitz/Clark Sheriffs: spent a lot of time & resources
Flight crew: time wasted, possible nightmares
Airline Industry: Installing Cooper Vane, Security Measures
General Public: Security at Airports

The question to ask about this list is what would be intentional and what would be unintentional? What's collateral and what's purposeful?

If it was a form of revenge, then you'd expect Cooper to feel wronged by the party he was attempting to hurt.

If he wanted to "show" or even more, make a statement by his actions, then he might actually "say" something to someone or might leave a message behind for people to find later.

Did he leave a message behind?

I Don't know.

[quade 3]

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Some of us do not see it as simple "nonsense".
I think you're not familiar with profiling and how it's used to try and think like the person that committed the crime...try to think outside the box once in awhile dude!

You crack me up.

There is a VAST difference between seeing things from a different perspective and just making things up so a theory will fit a bit better and injecting made up facts into the mythology that will only confuse people later.

When somebody says DB Cooper; had children, bought a house in a specific year, never committed another crime in his life with the exception of this one "perfect crime" in which he survived, I'm sorry, but that person is simply saying things that are not in evidence. He is making claims based on nothing.

That's NOT thinking "outside the box", that's just "making shit up".

People do far more harm than good by doing this because those "made up facts" get mixed up with the real ones. Eventually, it's nearly impossible to tell the two apart. That is how mythology, not reality, works.

Feel free to come up with any theory you'd like, but anybody that starts making "factual" claims that can't actually be backed up ought to be taken to task, not just by me, but the entirety of the thread participants.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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That's NOT thinking "outside the box", that's just "making shit up".

ROTFLMAO.

I want to make that my tag line... that was a good one.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Nobody has described the NB6 as a training rig. So it was ready to save somebodies life. A hard pull is not a no pull.

In that 79 Cossey interview, he did say it was hard to find and didn't mention anything such as "there's no way he could have gotten it open since it was packed so tight"...

But, I take people's word for it. The container was tight.

Here's my question. Suppose you just lept from the plane, 200 mph exit speed, you (probably) don't have too much experience especially in these conditions, it takes you some time to stabalize, it takes you time to reach the cord, you yank on it,

"oh s**t!" you say to yourself. "This thing is stuck!"

An instant surge of andrenaline hits you, fright mode, flight or fight mechanism kicks in.

You've been freefalling for about 20 seconds.

You have roughly 25 seconds to pull that ripcord, or you're DEAD.

Do you feel confident that you could give it a nice two hand pull and get 20+ lbs of force onto that cord? If you got the ripcord all the way out, would you toggle it back and forth until the darn parachute opened, or would you just give up and enjoy one last ride?

When I said "confident" I didn't mean "comfortable"... none of us would be comfortable.

[Ckret 0]

Again with the one liner, first it was "bunnies in the clouds" and now this. Good stuff. It does lead me to this, I, like many of you have my theory, don't let it influence yours if you don't think it fits. I believe it was snowman who wrote something to the effect of, you hang onto the description of Coopers age... alluding that perhaps I shouldn't.

There is nothing in the investigation that points to dismissing the witnesses accounts from that evening. Their accounts have remained solid and mostly unchanged in their several interviews. Not only that but when the witnesses (the four who had direct interaction with Cooper) were questioned, they gave virtually the same accounts of his physical make-up. Based on this, I take it as fact Coopers physical stature and make-up.

If you have reason to dismiss their statements and form your own description of Cooper, go forward. Hell, make him 5'9, blond hair, blue eyed and in his late 20's; we'll call him McCoy and go home.

As Quade put it (I can't believe I am quoting Quade, no offense, but when I write the name i say it my mind like Seinfeld would greet Newman) it's not thinking outside of the box it's making shit up. This type thinking leads to, as we call it, "static" which clouds the intel. If you mix to much B.S. in with the real intel you will miss the threat. "Garbage in Garbage out."

In other words the theories are great but there's way to much junk here to make this effort meaningful.

It would really be helpful if your going to post a theory to post the fact, in bullet form, before stating theory. For example:

Theory - Cooper was not 45 to 50 years old in 1971.

Facts to support the theory:

-

-

-

Here is where you write your post based on the facts. I think this would really help to start moving this effort into a useful direction

[snowmman 3]

someone says someone is 40-50.

I ask why, why do you think that (in this case)

Ckret: what are the supporting facts?

As an example of inaccuracte deductions of age, there was something in prior posts talking about the predicted age of the posters here.

I am older than Ckret, who is what 40, 41?
Am I lying or not?
You're going to make a deduction based on the pattern and content of my posts.
I'm actually curious whether people can tell.

And how come Ckret picks and chooses for what he replies to? was there any answer to my post on cutting implement? or any answer to the knapsack phrase.
I don't get it, actually.

[NickDG 23]

>>Pity then that this isn't a democracy isn't it?
It's creepy how all you mods take such delight in pointing that out so often. What is it? The opening line in the mod handbook?

Some mods can take part in a thread, but you not so much. What we see in your words is more like, "I can say what I want and you can't."

And on bullshit prevention - you'd better get busy - it's a large percentage of this entire board.

I get a sense you are almost daring us to rise up. But be a bit careful as better internet discussion boards than this have crashed and burned over the years, and the spark can be as simple as one mod crossing the line. And "we" are the ones who pick that line.

Even in a non-democracy someone is always willing to stand up in front of a tank. There have been several long time posters here nicely asking you to ease up. So either moderate or take part - there doesn't seem to be a viable third way in your case . . .

NickD

[Orange1 0]

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If the hijacker had been John Collins maybe it would add more weight to the Duane theory.

Would John Collins checking into a hotel down the street from PDX the night of Nov 23, 1971 add more weight?

It might. Pity John Collins and Dan Cooper are both pretty "common" names (presumably why both of them were chosen). Hence the fact that there were a whole bunch of Dan Coopers picked up or examined after the incident, including the one with a previous arrest for drunkenness. Intriguing but still circumstantial. I know it doesn't "prove" anything but if you do a google search for John Collins it brings up plenty of hits on obviously different people... even wiki pages on 2 of them.

Jo, about 10% of people are left-handed and it is more common in males than females (so the % of males will be somewhat higher). By itself, that's still not nearly enough.

On the chute found and the Cossey debate: surely there is an easy way to check this, if it was a proper full canopy then it was not the dummy reserve?

On the revenge motive - it's already been put forward he may have been a disgruntled Boeing employee. That or NWA. I think "revenge" against the FBI for something like this is a bit far fetched, if they had found him (how could he be sure they wouldn't unless he planned on cratering in the wilderness?) it wouldn't have been much "revenge".

And finally snowmman.. I really don't get all the arguments about his age. Like ckret says, all the reports had him around there. The first one out - in the transcript between 305 and ATC - describes him as 50 yrs old, black hair and 6'1". I agree with ckret here, in the absence of conflicting witness statements on age i really don't see how you can keep arguing it? I mean, like ckret says if they were wrong about age why not everything else, then let's just declare Christiansen Cooper and be done with it.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[quade 3]

Nick --

You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. I can't help that.

If you think I've been too repressive, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

If you have something useful to add to the discussion, feel free to do so.

If you feel I haven't moderated this or any other thread fairly, feel free to bring it to the attention of Sangiro.

As a matter of fact, feel free to even comment on what you believe is right or wrong with the way I moderate right here. I'll read it and if I think you actually have a valid point, I'll work on it.

That said, I'm still entitled to my opinion about any topic on this Forum the same as any other user. If you don't think so, then, well, all I can say is that it is -YOU- that are trying to stifle an opinion you do not agree with. If you don't see the reality of that, then I can't help you.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

It's the main thing that doesn't fit what you might expect.

and it's subjective evidence.

All other evidence we have, we allow for fuzz. Jump zone, money, rubber bands etc.

I don't know why Age is not allowed to have fuzz.
Explain it to me. What the facts that support Age?

All black hair, no grey hair, and right away I'm thinking hm.. Tell me he's balding and I say hmm again...people likely to mispredict.

So why should I believe there is no fuzz? Just straighten me out.

[councilman24 36]

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Nobody has described the NB6 as a training rig. So it was ready to save somebodies life. A hard pull is not a no pull.

In that 79 Cossey interview, he did say it was hard to find and didn't mention anything such as "there's no way he could have gotten it open since it was packed so tight"...

But, I take people's word for it. The container was tight.

Here's my question. Suppose you just lept from the plane, 200 mph exit speed, you (probably) don't have too much experience especially in these conditions, it takes you some time to stabalize, it takes you time to reach the cord, you yank on it,

"oh s**t!" you say to yourself. "This thing is stuck!"

An instant surge of andrenaline hits you, fright mode, flight or fight mechanism kicks in.

You've been freefalling for about 20 seconds.

You have roughly 25 seconds to pull that ripcord, or you're DEAD.

Do you feel confident that you could give it a nice two hand pull and get 20+ lbs of force onto that cord? If you got the ripcord all the way out, would you toggle it back and forth until the darn parachute opened, or would you just give up and enjoy one last ride?

When I said "confident" I didn't mean "comfortable"... none of us would be comfortable.

I've jumped from a 727 air stair. Along with hundreds of other skydivers. It doesn't take 20 seconds to stabilize. In fact at 160 knots the exit was stable and controlled. I took photos looking back up at the tail from maybe 100' away. The ripcord on a NB 6 is nice and big and easy to find. 20 lbs of force is less than the legal limit. I've jumped military surplus equipment also. I am confident that if a person believed they could jump from a 727 and make it they could would have the experience to pull any ripcord that could be reasonably pulled.

The biggest issue with jumping from an air stair at 200 knots is the wind blast dislocating shoulders and ripping containers open. That's what happened the first time civilian skydivers jumped a 727. The pilots soon learned to slow it down to about 160 (IIRC) and the jumpers learned to keep their arms in for a second or two. Later, they would do 200 knot jumps for fun. The container wouldn't have been an issue because the military gear was made to be much more secure than the skydiving gear on the first civilian jet jump.

I don't have a clue what you mean by "toggle it back and forth". Once the ripcord is pulled the side flaps are retracted by spring loaded straps and everything in the container is free to come out. There is something called cone lock but I wouldn't expect it on this rig.

Also, many military surplus rigs were modified, "extended" in order to hold military surplus canopies in sleeves for skydiving rather than emergency use. Do we know whether the container was stock? And do we know it didn't have D rings added to it? Usually it was airforce harnesses that had d rings added but it could be done to a NB6. For that matter, do we know it was a navy harness? It could be a navy container on an airforce harness set up for skydiving. I haven't read any testimony or interviews but I think I read that Cossey didn't know what these were for. Did he know he probably wouldn't get them back? I don't know any of the players or the DZ's involved but remember in those days skydiving was somewhat outlaw and the public often put skydivers and motorcyle clubs in the same group. Nobody cared about regulations or laws so much. Most of the gear was surplus, there was a lot of basement alterations going on. Simply saying this was a NB6 with a 28' canopy doesn't give us much idea of how the rig had been changed and what it was like.

IF Cooper had as few as 6 or 7 jumps he would have alread pulled a similar ripcord on his first freefall. Somewhere between 10 and 20 he would have been at terminal and pulling a similar ripcord.

IF the NB6 was around the DZ for use either by a pilot or skyfivers I doubt it was stock any longer.

You making me want to pack up by NB7 and go jump it. Almost. And other than the cops chasing me I would be comfortable. But I would have taken the real reserve.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[quade 3]

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Again with the one liner, first it was "bunnies in the clouds" and now this. Good stuff.

Maybe I should tag them with a © so they don't end up in the movie version of this thread.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Orange1 0]

Something else about the John Collins in the hotel. That was a known alias of Weber, right- he had even been imprisoned under that name. As far as I know you did not need ID to check into hotels any more than you needed it to board a plane in those days. Why would he have left such an obvious clue?

snowmman, there are lots of things that don't "fit", but most of those are because we have no idea of how they occurred (the money ending up at tina's bar, the landing zone, what happened to cooper, etc). this was one that had more than one witness.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Oh, and Jo. Just so you don't think I'm all one-sided, there is another piece of circumstantial evidence that might help you. i seem to recall you mentioned somewhere that one iof Duane's favorite sayings was something like "let's get this show on the road". Now, that is not a very uncommon saying at all -- so nothing conclusive -- but, it may interest you to know that in the transcript when the hijacker was getting impatient he was reported to have told them "to get the plane on the road".

And on the sideshow of the Quade debate, while I didn't necessarily agree with who got banned for PAs in the last thread, I personally enjoy the droll cynical interjections

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

theory: Cooper was a rational actor.

I've digested what people are saying about this thread and will constrain myself in the future.

Mainly I wanted to humanize Cooper. When he's found and Ckret's knocking at the door with cuffs, it's just going to be a sad little story. There's not going to be the big bad guy ending.

Remember, that from Cooper's perspective, every little thing he did was rational. He may have been limited in his thinking for various reasons, but to him it made sense. He held it together for a number of hours on the tarmac. He was not a lunatic.

People here have lost their cool just based on reading words, in comparison.

Ckret pulled his gun even (found a reason to mention shooting 100s). People respond to stress in different ways. You can see that very dramatically in this thread. Ckret would have carried a gun if he did the hijack.

I think to find Cooper, you first have to be willing to say Cooper was rational. It's distasteful, but even a little compassion for why he decided to do the various things he did. I think it opens up one's thinking.

'nuff said. I'll be quieter.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Terry,

Your insights are really helpful.

The "toggle" comment was because we heard he'd have to pull the cord out and up, not just out, to get it to spring.

200 knot jumps for fun

Amazing! Do you realize flight 305 was "only" going 170 kts when he jumped?

A little faster than the 160 kts you described as being relatively stable (pic at 100').

You should know, there were NO D rings on the NB6. That's been stated over and over, so I believe it.

He obviously made some mods to the rig (28' in a NB6)... the extent of the mods we wouldn't know without calling him directly, and he may play a prank on you when you call...

Quick question: was the pioneer steerable?

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

"The container wouldn't have been an issue because the military gear was made to be much more secure than the skydiving gear on the first civilian jet jump."

THIS ONE SENTENCE JUST SCREAMED SOMTHING! It was debated a few pages back, why cooper took the NB6 instead of the pioneer. Read councilmans quote again now. Now answer this question please in you opinion. Did Cooper somehow know or figure what councilman just said?
He goes with one of two things, what he knew, or what he thought will get the job done the best.

Plausable or not?

[Ckret 0]

Ok one more try Snowman, I am concluding Coopers physicals based on the fact (it's not fuzzy, it's very clear) all four individuals described him basically the same. Whether we like it not that is a fact. The next step is to determine the validity of the fact that they all described him the same. For example, if someone stated Cooper was 20 years old, it is a fact that they described him as 20 years old, but then we find out this person never saw Cooper but someone else he thought was Cooper who was 20 years old. Its still a fact but not a valid fact.

When we look at the validity of the four statements, the three stews and the ticket agent, all gave them independent of each other. Two of the stews were taken off the plane and interviewed in Seattle. They were separated and interviewed apart but gave similar descriptions. Muklow was interviewed in Reno apart from Schaffner and Hancock but gave a similar description. The ticket agent was interviewed in Portland but gave a similar description. This is a fact that is not fuzzy, it is very clear.

Please help me understand by telling me what facts are you using to change Coopers age. I would be more than happy to explore possibilities but you have to provide me with facts.

For example, the finding of the money in 1980 is a fact. It is a fact that the money could not have gotten there by natural means from the 1972 DZ. Therefore, based on these facts we must change our thinking on the DZ and explore other possibilities.

Give me one fact that causes pause for consideration on his physical make-up, it is not a fact that 20 somethings are not good witnesses.

[snowmman 3]

thanks. This is much better.

The two stews were like 22,23 and women.

question: The other two individuals, were they women? and what were their ages.

I'm going to stereotype, but women sometimes create perceptions based on the way a person interacts with them. If I act like people expect a father would act, then that affects their perception of age etc.

question: was the word balding used in the verbal description, or receding hair line or did they just interact with an artist who drew the hair line that way

question: are we definitely sure the hair was black with no gray hairs. What about the eyebrows? any grey? bushy? older folks have bushier eyebrows

question: shaving. Was he clean shaven? Did he look like he had shaved that day? did he have any whiskers, stubble.

question: Did he have long hairs on his ears or in his nostrils? (older folk do)

[edit]
question: teeth: did anyone mention his teeth? stained, broken, gaps, fillings? Did his teeth show when he talked?

[edit]
question: fingernails? anyone notice?

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Ok one more try Snowman, I am concluding Coopers physicals based on the fact (it's not fuzzy, it's very clear) all four individuals described him basically the same. Whether we like it not that is a fact. The next step is to determine the validity of the fact that they all described him the same. For example, if someone stated Cooper was 20 years old, it is a fact that they described him as 20 years old, but then we find out this person never saw Cooper but someone else he thought was Cooper who was 20 years old. Its still a fact but not a valid fact.

When we look at the validity of the four statements, the three stews and the ticket agent, all gave them independent of each other. Two of the stews were taken off the plane and interviewed in Seattle. They were separated and interviewed apart but gave similar descriptions. Muklow was interviewed in Reno apart from Schaffner and Hancock but gave a similar description. The ticket agent was interviewed in Portland but gave a similar description. This is a fact that is not fuzzy, it is very clear.

Please help me understand by telling me what facts are you using to change Coopers age. I would be more than happy to explore possibilities but you have to provide me with facts.

For example, the finding of the money in 1980 is a fact. It is a fact that the money could not have gotten there by natural means from the 1972 DZ. Therefore, based on these facts we must change our thinking on the DZ and explore other possibilities.

Give me one fact that causes pause for consideration on his physical make-up, it is not a fact that 20 somethings are not good witnesses.

[councilman24 36]

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Terry,

Your insights are really helpful.

The "toggle" comment was because we heard he'd have to pull the cord out and up, not just out, to get it to spring.

200 knot jumps for fun

Amazing! Do you realize flight 305 was "only" going 170 kts when he jumped?

A little faster than the 160 kts you described as being relatively stable (pic at 100').

You should know, there were NO D rings on the NB6. That's been stated over and over, so I believe it.

He obviously made some mods to the rig (28' in a NB6)... the extent of the mods we wouldn't know without calling him directly, and he may play a prank on you when you call...

Quick question: was the pioneer steerable?

Whatever direction you pull to pull the handle out of the spring loaded ripcord pocket you can continue pulling in that direction to pull the pins. In general if you pull down on one of those ripcords you may not get the handle out of the pocket. If you pull out you will. There will be somewhat less friction on the cable if you then pull down but it is not necessary. Grab it with one, perferably both hands and push out from your chest like a push up. Can you lift 100lbs off the floor doing a push up? Then you can apply a hundred pounds of force to the ripcord handle. Not all goes to the pins but most does. Pulling, even a hard pull, if it could be pulled at all, it not that much of an issue.

Skydivers routinely go 150 knots in freefall now, head down. And manuver and build formations. 160 knot exit is fast but fully controllable. The only reason it was 100' before I took a photo is my reaction time, not because I couldn't. 200 knots is controllable if your ready for it. Remember you slow down to freefall speed very quickly. Think of the candy wrapper you through out the window of your car. It's going 60 mph when it leaves your hand but not for very long.

There are no D rings on a STOCK NB6. Just because a rigger on here says it didn't have d rings doesn't mean it didn't. The only people who would know is the owner or someone KNOWLEDAGLE who handled and inspected the rig. A non-skydiver or non-rigger wouldn't have noticed or remembered. If the owner says it didn't and was never used for intentional jumping, then I agree it probably didn't have d rings. But just the fact it had a 28' in it may mean it was used for intentional jumping and if so it would have had d rings added. D rings were ROUTINELY added to military harnesses. When Mark says the NB6 didn't have D rings, unless he has direct information on THIS NB6, he can't be sure.

Are there photos of the parachutes before they were given to Cooper?

I don't know what kind of pioneer canopy it was but I expect that any canopy in it was steerable. Its not unreasonable that the 28' canopy in the NB6 was steerable. Either modified to be steerable or had a four line release installed to make it steerable. IF it were a stock pilot emergency rig it wouldn't be steerable but remember all of this equipment was routinely used for intentional jumping and modified to be steerable. A 28' C9 canopy was the default main parachute for intentional jumping. Everybody started on these and then moved to other equipment if they could afford it. Even stock military equipment is steerable. Often the back center four lines were marked and a pilot would cut those four lines after opening to make the canopy steerable, I have canopies marked that way.

I'm not telling you anything any rigger around from the late 70's early 80's or early wouldn't know.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[happythoughts 0]

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Thanksgiving weekend would be a great time to do it. It allows the person to get out of the woods and back to their job in a nearby state before anyone missed him.

Self-employed. Had a bad run of luck and needed to get those trucks repaired for his plumbing business or lease a new building.

Gone fishin'. He told his employer that he is taking some time off to go on vacation.

Plenty of explanations for the employed hijacker.

You just rented the old 1981 "High Risk" movie, didn't you?

Actually, never heard of it, but you see my point.

Until it was mentioned, I never really thought about the practical reasons for picking Thanksgiving.

I wonder how far in advance that the ticket was purchased (as a measurement of how much planning went into this).

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Are there photos of the parachutes before they were given to Cooper?

Cossey *may* have taken photos of his containers for record keeping purposes. I don't know. I've been told he has pictures, but whether or not they're of these exact containers??

The no D ring was from Ckret, not from any DZer. If Ckret has photos of the harnesses given (before, not after the HJ) then it would be great to post for all to debate.

[Orange1 0]

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question: Did he have long hairs on his ears or in his nostrils? (older folk do)

er yes older folk do but generally not the 45-50 age group! Ditto for the bushy eyebrows comment. How many people in this age group do you actually know??? And it is certainly not unheard of - not very common maybe but NOT unheard of - for a 50-year old to have no (or so few as to not be noticeable) gray hairs.

As for the witnesses ... hmm let's see if the stews were around 22-23... in those days chances are their parents were probably around 50 or so, yes? I would think most people are quite capable of "gee he looks about as old as my mom/dad" or something along those lines. People have more bases for age comparison than how someone acts towards them.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ryoder 1,384]

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Maybe I should tag them with a © so they don't end up in the movie version of this thread.

Speaking of the movie version, while watching Ckrets bank-robber video, it just hit me who could play him in the movie after he cracks the case. Now bear in mind this actor is a bit older than Ckret, and probably a couple inches shorter, but I think he would do a good job.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.