georger 197 #41051 June 20, 2013 Speculation: I've also wondered WHY the hijacker selected a flight coming out of the main hub in Minneapolis, the base of NWA. A flight he knew would end up in Seattle. Just saying.Quote Well you can stop wondering - because he didn't! Read at http://n467us.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41052 June 20, 2013 RobertMBlevinsI don't know how to answer Georger's questions, except in this way: Ask anyone who was with the Seattle or Portland FBI if they ever even CONSIDERED it could have been an employee or an inside job. I asked Fuhrman this question in Seattle when we spoke at the sports bar next to Third Place Books. As you know, he was one of the agents who questioned the passengers after they were released in Seattle. He said no. The Seattle FBI, as far as he knew, never questioned anyone from NWA except the crew and the personnel on the ground who were involved in trying to figure out Cooper and where he jumped. Run-of-the-mill NWA employees were never considered as possible suspects. And which Cooper FBI agent said this: Quote Im going to contact Fuhrman and ask him about your assertions attributed to him. I doubt he even reads here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobKnoss 0 #41053 June 20, 2013 "Dan Cooper comics were in Canada......" McCoy had a major comic book collection and spent a lot of time in Canada. It was McCoy who chose the name Dan Cooper. He showed me the comic book that gave him the idea. There was an identity set up for Duane as Dan Cooper, and another complete set of papers for him as Duane Weber after the jump. The Weber papers were placed in his locker with the 'dummy' parachute that he actually jumped with. Those are the real facts. That's what happened. Not your Wild Goose story. You guys are funny. Just dumber than a sedimentary rock. That's where all the sludge settles to the bottom and solidifies. Or "Petrified Dinosaur Poop". That might be a close analogy. Minerals replace plant and animal matter and morph the poop to stone. If you dump enough misdirection on Cooper you hope to morph Weber into someone else, cast in stone. Won't happen! I have the real story to tell, and I'm going to keep telling it. Because we are supposed to be above board and honest, not liars. (Not pointing fingers today) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41054 June 20, 2013 I would be more worried about Marla, she is claiming the CIA made LD do the jump, not Duane! maybe you could help her out with your records lmao. she also used Nixon....just like you did. how does it feel to have someone use your own words lmao..... "The Weber papers" you mean the LD files....try to keep up in the modern deception....you are fading out fast...The Weber papers, oh crap that's funny "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41055 June 20, 2013 Attached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41056 June 20, 2013 the report in Vancouver is not the same LD. also it appears to be the wrong LD in the newspaper. the guy on the far right is much older for the time period. he looks about mid 40's to early 50's if you ask me. no resemblance at all... LD was a surveyor later in life. after the hijacking from what I have found. you know....when he was in hiding Ha Ha.... nice digging around though!!! what are your thoughts about this photo??? the second pic shows the inside of a cabin close to what they had. these things were not made for a Family..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41057 June 20, 2013 testxyzAttached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41058 June 20, 2013 Robert99 ***Attached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99 correct, I blew the pic up, it's a cigar, it's sticking upward from the left side of his mouth.....nice catch.."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41059 June 20, 2013 With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41060 June 21, 2013 skyjack71With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down! XYZ has not shown any intentions towards you. no reason for intimidation."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #41061 June 21, 2013 I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41062 June 21, 2013 Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41063 June 21, 2013 testxyz Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL the open shell is how they would look as a logger's cabin. I'm sure after a while people moved in them put up dry wall, bathroom etc. but still to small to start putting walls inside....no room. I don't think any of the guys in the news article look like LD at all.. smokin99...the pics on the right are LD....you could possibly contact Dale Miller in Eugene where LD died, but I don't know how he will react to questions? I have the addy...... here is the August 5, 2011 interview http://newsok.com/marla-cooper-uncut/multimedia/video/1095753368001"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41064 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 ***Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL the open shell is how they would look as a logger's cabin. I'm sure after a while people moved in them put up dry wall, bathroom etc. but still to small to start putting walls inside....no room. I don't think any of the guys in the news article look like LD at all.. smokin99...the pics on the right are LD....you could possibly contact Dale Miller in Eugene where LD died, but I don't know how he will react to questions? I have the addy...... here is the August 5, 2011 interview http://newsok.com/marla-cooper-uncut/multimedia/video/1095753368001 That was a great interview with Marla. My Take Away.... She believes what she is saying is true. She is unintentionally sloppy with the facts at time. The FBI has devoted many man hours into researching her story. The FBI knows more than what us little people can dig up on L.D. Here is some more stuff that might be helpful to someone. Maybe. On January 23, 1964 the Oregonian newspaper ran a Safeway ad. A Mrs. Dewey Cooper won a free trip to Disneyland for 2. It was a Safeway promotion contest for a new Disney Movie called "Sword in the Stone" Attached is the proof...lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41065 June 21, 2013 well, I thought a lot of signs showed up. body language tells different stories. she never kept her eye's on the person asking a question. she closed her eye's a lot as if to remember. the big one was when he asked her about the money and she grabbed her ear. this is usually a sign of deception. not that it happens to everyone, but it happened at the exact moment. the funny one was her getting Dewey's name spelled wrong, but she could of been nervous. .The FBI was supposed to give an update in early 2012? one has to wonder where the jump area is according to Marla. she stated on a phone interview he landed inside a 6 mile area 7 miles from the home of LD. The only record floating around at the time was the home in Vancouver who everyone thought was Marla's LD. if that was what she was referring too? if not it must of been in a different area than the original jump site that many believe is now wrong. if it was in a different area they would have had zero problems going back for the money. she stated he landed over farmland, and yet nobody found the money or chute? on farmland? this was because he was a surveyor, which in incorrect because he wasn't one in this time period. she said he was able to pin point this because he was a surveyor and knew the area. which area was this? Reno, Eugene, Sisters, Washington? this story is going on two years now and the FBI has said nothing. I find that a little strange. as for the CIA? look up a man's name on here of Bob Knoss. if you want to read a crazy story about the Cooper case gone CIA. he's your man. it's very possible Marla could of read his story, been on here for years..... he just made a post on the last page before this one.....here is the phone interview..... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41066 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45***With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down! XYZ has not shown any intentions towards you. no reason for intimidation. Definitely NO INTIMIDATION on my part. Just stating the facts that he sounds like - Bull and Fox which were one and the same. Check you PM's. Simply an observation on my part.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41067 June 21, 2013 airtwardo Quote I have never even seen a commercial airliner in the USA use only the rear stairs for boarding and deplaning. I have...In San Diego & Hawaii...also in Guam but that's arguably not U.S.A. (yet) YOUR 'personal experience' seems to be rather limited in this instance. Odd you should mention this about San Diego. I know that Duane and his lady of the day - took jobs with a service crew that cleaned the planes and delivered the meals to the planes in between 1962 and 1969. I would have to go back to my notes as I tried to take notes as she talked and/or after I got off the phone with her. So much of this I have not revisited in several yrs. Two note spiral note books of conversation I had with her after I was able to establish a relationship with her after the FBI scared the wits out of her when the contacted her around 1997- 1998. I would have to reference the note books to be accurate. TOO much information to keep in my now feeble mind.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41068 June 21, 2013 now, Marla is claiming the CIA put him up to this correct. why would he have to go into hiding and lose touch with his family? why where they worried the money was marked and Marla Quotes "he just knew that it (the crime) was wrong" he would be free a clear if the CIA was involved. did the CIA pick him and Dewey over military trained people? why Dewey, why would the CIA use him. Bob Knoss also claims it was Nixon dealing with airport security....very similar???? she claims her father told her a lot about the crime, her mother supposedly knows about it. nothing about CIA? not every family is tight. I had two Uncles that I seen maybe 10 times. this was before I came to Florida in 77. never seen them since. when I see records of these guys all over the place, flags go up when someone claims they are in hiding. I have a real hard time buying the hiding part. ok Jo, but the first post was saying XYZ was promoting Marla, then you made the second post.....I don't see anything in my PM box?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41069 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well, I thought a lot of signs showed up. body language tells different stories. she never kept her eye's on the person asking a question. she closed her eye's a lot as if to remember. the big one was when he asked her about the money and she grabbed her ear. this is usually a sign of deception. not that it happens to everyone, but it happened at the exact moment. the funny one was her getting Dewey's name spelled wrong, but she could of been nervous. .The FBI was supposed to give an update in early 2012? one has to wonder where the jump area is according to Marla. she stated on a phone interview he landed inside a 6 mile area 7 miles from the home of LD. The only record floating around at the time was the home in Vancouver who everyone thought was Marla's LD. if that was what she was referring too? if not it must of been in a different area than the original jump site that many believe is now wrong. if it was in a different area they would have had zero problems going back for the money. she stated he landed over farmland, and yet nobody found the money or chute? on farmland? this was because he was a surveyor, which in incorrect because he wasn't one in this time period. she said he was able to pin point this because he was a surveyor and knew the area. which area was this? Reno, Eugene, Sisters, Washington? this story is going on two years now and the FBI has said nothing. I find that a little strange. as for the CIA? look up a man's name on here of Bob Knoss. if you want to read a crazy story about the Cooper case gone CIA. he's your man. it's very possible Marla could of read his story, been on here for years..... he just made a post on the last page before this one.....here is the phone interview..... It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. Geoff would never fail to seize an opportunity like this if it presented itself. The colour alone is worth a mention. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41070 June 21, 2013 smokin99 I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #41071 June 21, 2013 georger It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud. Just going off the one article I read they said the physical description didn't fit but I haven't had time to do any digging to see what they based that on. His basic profile is certainly intriguing. Hey if nothing else - I asked for something new to discuss and I got it. Thanks xyz and shutter.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #41072 June 21, 2013 Amazon ***I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41073 June 21, 2013 I haven't checked anything either. he is missing. here is the poster again....it's possible the FBI or US Marshal knew where he was at during the crime....don't know..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41074 June 21, 2013 smokin99 *** It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud. Just going off the one article I read they said the physical description didn't fit but I haven't had time to do any digging to see what they based that on. His basic profile is certainly intriguing. Hey if nothing else - I asked for something new to discuss and I got it. Thanks xyz and shutter. Im just being an idiot - I think I read the same articles you did - physical description didn't fit so once again the FBI cut bait. Once again the FBI cuts bait based on a "physical description". Makes you wonder what description they are using, but they must have faith in it whatever description 'they' are using, enough so to make or break an investigation ... and they move on. That to me is interesting. What physical description are they using? They must have faith in it (like Larry said) whatever 'it' is. A certain party has told me that Wild Bill was 'occupied and elsewhere' on the day of the hijacking so along with physical description he was dismissed rather quickly ? However, I am 100% serious in the fact nobody apparently except for locals in MN and WS, has brought Wild Bill forward as a cult Cooper candidate. He didn't make the front page in Cooper media tabloids? Ive never heard or seen his name in any discussion group until now. And, I believe if Geoff had run across Wild Bill while looking at FBI files, Wild Bill would be mentioned in Geoff's book - he's just too colorful a character not to include. But, this phrase 'ruled out on the basis of physical description' seems to be real, or it's a convenient ploy the FBI keeps repeating over and over and over again... They either have what they feel is a reliable physical description that they use... or it's a catch phrase they continue to use ... It makes you wonder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41075 June 21, 2013 smokin99 ******I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz What I said about those Coopers in the Shenandoah Valley is not made up. Star Tannery to be precise. howdy cuz via my Daddy's rabi. 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georger 197 #41052 June 20, 2013 RobertMBlevinsI don't know how to answer Georger's questions, except in this way: Ask anyone who was with the Seattle or Portland FBI if they ever even CONSIDERED it could have been an employee or an inside job. I asked Fuhrman this question in Seattle when we spoke at the sports bar next to Third Place Books. As you know, he was one of the agents who questioned the passengers after they were released in Seattle. He said no. The Seattle FBI, as far as he knew, never questioned anyone from NWA except the crew and the personnel on the ground who were involved in trying to figure out Cooper and where he jumped. Run-of-the-mill NWA employees were never considered as possible suspects. And which Cooper FBI agent said this: Quote Im going to contact Fuhrman and ask him about your assertions attributed to him. I doubt he even reads here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobKnoss 0 #41053 June 20, 2013 "Dan Cooper comics were in Canada......" McCoy had a major comic book collection and spent a lot of time in Canada. It was McCoy who chose the name Dan Cooper. He showed me the comic book that gave him the idea. There was an identity set up for Duane as Dan Cooper, and another complete set of papers for him as Duane Weber after the jump. The Weber papers were placed in his locker with the 'dummy' parachute that he actually jumped with. Those are the real facts. That's what happened. Not your Wild Goose story. You guys are funny. Just dumber than a sedimentary rock. That's where all the sludge settles to the bottom and solidifies. Or "Petrified Dinosaur Poop". That might be a close analogy. Minerals replace plant and animal matter and morph the poop to stone. If you dump enough misdirection on Cooper you hope to morph Weber into someone else, cast in stone. Won't happen! I have the real story to tell, and I'm going to keep telling it. Because we are supposed to be above board and honest, not liars. (Not pointing fingers today) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41054 June 20, 2013 I would be more worried about Marla, she is claiming the CIA made LD do the jump, not Duane! maybe you could help her out with your records lmao. she also used Nixon....just like you did. how does it feel to have someone use your own words lmao..... "The Weber papers" you mean the LD files....try to keep up in the modern deception....you are fading out fast...The Weber papers, oh crap that's funny "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41055 June 20, 2013 Attached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41056 June 20, 2013 the report in Vancouver is not the same LD. also it appears to be the wrong LD in the newspaper. the guy on the far right is much older for the time period. he looks about mid 40's to early 50's if you ask me. no resemblance at all... LD was a surveyor later in life. after the hijacking from what I have found. you know....when he was in hiding Ha Ha.... nice digging around though!!! what are your thoughts about this photo??? the second pic shows the inside of a cabin close to what they had. these things were not made for a Family..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41057 June 20, 2013 testxyzAttached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41058 June 20, 2013 Robert99 ***Attached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99 correct, I blew the pic up, it's a cigar, it's sticking upward from the left side of his mouth.....nice catch.."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41059 June 20, 2013 With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41060 June 21, 2013 skyjack71With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down! XYZ has not shown any intentions towards you. no reason for intimidation."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #41061 June 21, 2013 I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41062 June 21, 2013 Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41063 June 21, 2013 testxyz Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL the open shell is how they would look as a logger's cabin. I'm sure after a while people moved in them put up dry wall, bathroom etc. but still to small to start putting walls inside....no room. I don't think any of the guys in the news article look like LD at all.. smokin99...the pics on the right are LD....you could possibly contact Dale Miller in Eugene where LD died, but I don't know how he will react to questions? I have the addy...... here is the August 5, 2011 interview http://newsok.com/marla-cooper-uncut/multimedia/video/1095753368001"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41064 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 ***Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL the open shell is how they would look as a logger's cabin. I'm sure after a while people moved in them put up dry wall, bathroom etc. but still to small to start putting walls inside....no room. I don't think any of the guys in the news article look like LD at all.. smokin99...the pics on the right are LD....you could possibly contact Dale Miller in Eugene where LD died, but I don't know how he will react to questions? I have the addy...... here is the August 5, 2011 interview http://newsok.com/marla-cooper-uncut/multimedia/video/1095753368001 That was a great interview with Marla. My Take Away.... She believes what she is saying is true. She is unintentionally sloppy with the facts at time. The FBI has devoted many man hours into researching her story. The FBI knows more than what us little people can dig up on L.D. Here is some more stuff that might be helpful to someone. Maybe. On January 23, 1964 the Oregonian newspaper ran a Safeway ad. A Mrs. Dewey Cooper won a free trip to Disneyland for 2. It was a Safeway promotion contest for a new Disney Movie called "Sword in the Stone" Attached is the proof...lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41065 June 21, 2013 well, I thought a lot of signs showed up. body language tells different stories. she never kept her eye's on the person asking a question. she closed her eye's a lot as if to remember. the big one was when he asked her about the money and she grabbed her ear. this is usually a sign of deception. not that it happens to everyone, but it happened at the exact moment. the funny one was her getting Dewey's name spelled wrong, but she could of been nervous. .The FBI was supposed to give an update in early 2012? one has to wonder where the jump area is according to Marla. she stated on a phone interview he landed inside a 6 mile area 7 miles from the home of LD. The only record floating around at the time was the home in Vancouver who everyone thought was Marla's LD. if that was what she was referring too? if not it must of been in a different area than the original jump site that many believe is now wrong. if it was in a different area they would have had zero problems going back for the money. she stated he landed over farmland, and yet nobody found the money or chute? on farmland? this was because he was a surveyor, which in incorrect because he wasn't one in this time period. she said he was able to pin point this because he was a surveyor and knew the area. which area was this? Reno, Eugene, Sisters, Washington? this story is going on two years now and the FBI has said nothing. I find that a little strange. as for the CIA? look up a man's name on here of Bob Knoss. if you want to read a crazy story about the Cooper case gone CIA. he's your man. it's very possible Marla could of read his story, been on here for years..... he just made a post on the last page before this one.....here is the phone interview..... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41066 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45***With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down! XYZ has not shown any intentions towards you. no reason for intimidation. Definitely NO INTIMIDATION on my part. Just stating the facts that he sounds like - Bull and Fox which were one and the same. Check you PM's. Simply an observation on my part.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41067 June 21, 2013 airtwardo Quote I have never even seen a commercial airliner in the USA use only the rear stairs for boarding and deplaning. I have...In San Diego & Hawaii...also in Guam but that's arguably not U.S.A. (yet) YOUR 'personal experience' seems to be rather limited in this instance. Odd you should mention this about San Diego. I know that Duane and his lady of the day - took jobs with a service crew that cleaned the planes and delivered the meals to the planes in between 1962 and 1969. I would have to go back to my notes as I tried to take notes as she talked and/or after I got off the phone with her. So much of this I have not revisited in several yrs. Two note spiral note books of conversation I had with her after I was able to establish a relationship with her after the FBI scared the wits out of her when the contacted her around 1997- 1998. I would have to reference the note books to be accurate. TOO much information to keep in my now feeble mind.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41068 June 21, 2013 now, Marla is claiming the CIA put him up to this correct. why would he have to go into hiding and lose touch with his family? why where they worried the money was marked and Marla Quotes "he just knew that it (the crime) was wrong" he would be free a clear if the CIA was involved. did the CIA pick him and Dewey over military trained people? why Dewey, why would the CIA use him. Bob Knoss also claims it was Nixon dealing with airport security....very similar???? she claims her father told her a lot about the crime, her mother supposedly knows about it. nothing about CIA? not every family is tight. I had two Uncles that I seen maybe 10 times. this was before I came to Florida in 77. never seen them since. when I see records of these guys all over the place, flags go up when someone claims they are in hiding. I have a real hard time buying the hiding part. ok Jo, but the first post was saying XYZ was promoting Marla, then you made the second post.....I don't see anything in my PM box?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41069 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well, I thought a lot of signs showed up. body language tells different stories. she never kept her eye's on the person asking a question. she closed her eye's a lot as if to remember. the big one was when he asked her about the money and she grabbed her ear. this is usually a sign of deception. not that it happens to everyone, but it happened at the exact moment. the funny one was her getting Dewey's name spelled wrong, but she could of been nervous. .The FBI was supposed to give an update in early 2012? one has to wonder where the jump area is according to Marla. she stated on a phone interview he landed inside a 6 mile area 7 miles from the home of LD. The only record floating around at the time was the home in Vancouver who everyone thought was Marla's LD. if that was what she was referring too? if not it must of been in a different area than the original jump site that many believe is now wrong. if it was in a different area they would have had zero problems going back for the money. she stated he landed over farmland, and yet nobody found the money or chute? on farmland? this was because he was a surveyor, which in incorrect because he wasn't one in this time period. she said he was able to pin point this because he was a surveyor and knew the area. which area was this? Reno, Eugene, Sisters, Washington? this story is going on two years now and the FBI has said nothing. I find that a little strange. as for the CIA? look up a man's name on here of Bob Knoss. if you want to read a crazy story about the Cooper case gone CIA. he's your man. it's very possible Marla could of read his story, been on here for years..... he just made a post on the last page before this one.....here is the phone interview..... It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. Geoff would never fail to seize an opportunity like this if it presented itself. The colour alone is worth a mention. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41070 June 21, 2013 smokin99 I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #41071 June 21, 2013 georger It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud. Just going off the one article I read they said the physical description didn't fit but I haven't had time to do any digging to see what they based that on. His basic profile is certainly intriguing. Hey if nothing else - I asked for something new to discuss and I got it. Thanks xyz and shutter.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #41072 June 21, 2013 Amazon ***I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41073 June 21, 2013 I haven't checked anything either. he is missing. here is the poster again....it's possible the FBI or US Marshal knew where he was at during the crime....don't know..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41074 June 21, 2013 smokin99 *** It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud. Just going off the one article I read they said the physical description didn't fit but I haven't had time to do any digging to see what they based that on. His basic profile is certainly intriguing. Hey if nothing else - I asked for something new to discuss and I got it. Thanks xyz and shutter. Im just being an idiot - I think I read the same articles you did - physical description didn't fit so once again the FBI cut bait. Once again the FBI cuts bait based on a "physical description". Makes you wonder what description they are using, but they must have faith in it whatever description 'they' are using, enough so to make or break an investigation ... and they move on. That to me is interesting. What physical description are they using? They must have faith in it (like Larry said) whatever 'it' is. A certain party has told me that Wild Bill was 'occupied and elsewhere' on the day of the hijacking so along with physical description he was dismissed rather quickly ? However, I am 100% serious in the fact nobody apparently except for locals in MN and WS, has brought Wild Bill forward as a cult Cooper candidate. He didn't make the front page in Cooper media tabloids? Ive never heard or seen his name in any discussion group until now. And, I believe if Geoff had run across Wild Bill while looking at FBI files, Wild Bill would be mentioned in Geoff's book - he's just too colorful a character not to include. But, this phrase 'ruled out on the basis of physical description' seems to be real, or it's a convenient ploy the FBI keeps repeating over and over and over again... They either have what they feel is a reliable physical description that they use... or it's a catch phrase they continue to use ... It makes you wonder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41075 June 21, 2013 smokin99 ******I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz What I said about those Coopers in the Shenandoah Valley is not made up. Star Tannery to be precise. howdy cuz via my Daddy's rabi. 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BobKnoss 0 #41053 June 20, 2013 "Dan Cooper comics were in Canada......" McCoy had a major comic book collection and spent a lot of time in Canada. It was McCoy who chose the name Dan Cooper. He showed me the comic book that gave him the idea. There was an identity set up for Duane as Dan Cooper, and another complete set of papers for him as Duane Weber after the jump. The Weber papers were placed in his locker with the 'dummy' parachute that he actually jumped with. Those are the real facts. That's what happened. Not your Wild Goose story. You guys are funny. Just dumber than a sedimentary rock. That's where all the sludge settles to the bottom and solidifies. Or "Petrified Dinosaur Poop". That might be a close analogy. Minerals replace plant and animal matter and morph the poop to stone. If you dump enough misdirection on Cooper you hope to morph Weber into someone else, cast in stone. Won't happen! I have the real story to tell, and I'm going to keep telling it. Because we are supposed to be above board and honest, not liars. (Not pointing fingers today) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41054 June 20, 2013 I would be more worried about Marla, she is claiming the CIA made LD do the jump, not Duane! maybe you could help her out with your records lmao. she also used Nixon....just like you did. how does it feel to have someone use your own words lmao..... "The Weber papers" you mean the LD files....try to keep up in the modern deception....you are fading out fast...The Weber papers, oh crap that's funny "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
testxyz 0 #41055 June 20, 2013 Attached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41056 June 20, 2013 the report in Vancouver is not the same LD. also it appears to be the wrong LD in the newspaper. the guy on the far right is much older for the time period. he looks about mid 40's to early 50's if you ask me. no resemblance at all... LD was a surveyor later in life. after the hijacking from what I have found. you know....when he was in hiding Ha Ha.... nice digging around though!!! what are your thoughts about this photo??? the second pic shows the inside of a cabin close to what they had. these things were not made for a Family..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41057 June 20, 2013 testxyzAttached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41058 June 20, 2013 Robert99 ***Attached is a February 2nd, 1961 Picture from the Oregonian newspaper of a L.D. Cooper that worked as a line-man for the Portland Gas and Electric Company. His crew was from the Williamette Valley which basically runs along I-5 from Eugene to Portland Oregon. There is report of a Lynn Doyle Cooper living in Vancouver Wa. in 1969 and 1970, right across the river from Portland and also one that lived in Eugene, Oregon. It has been reported L.D. Cooper worked as a Engineering Surveyor. Speculating here, possibly a promotion position after working as a line-man for a number of years. At first I thought the newspaper picture L.D. didn't look like Marla's L.D. Cooper. It appears the man in the Newspaper pic has a moustache or is holding something in his mouth. Hard to tell. Plus he has glasses and a hardhat on. (L.D. would be about 30 at this time if born in 1931) When I put the two pictures of L.D. Cooper (I'm pretty sure they are pics of Marla's L.D.) next to the Newspaper L.D. pic I can see a resemblance. Maybe you guys know more of L.D. Cooper's work history. The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99 correct, I blew the pic up, it's a cigar, it's sticking upward from the left side of his mouth.....nice catch.."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41059 June 20, 2013 With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41060 June 21, 2013 skyjack71With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down! XYZ has not shown any intentions towards you. no reason for intimidation."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #41061 June 21, 2013 I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
testxyz 0 #41062 June 21, 2013 Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41063 June 21, 2013 testxyz Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL the open shell is how they would look as a logger's cabin. I'm sure after a while people moved in them put up dry wall, bathroom etc. but still to small to start putting walls inside....no room. I don't think any of the guys in the news article look like LD at all.. smokin99...the pics on the right are LD....you could possibly contact Dale Miller in Eugene where LD died, but I don't know how he will react to questions? I have the addy...... here is the August 5, 2011 interview http://newsok.com/marla-cooper-uncut/multimedia/video/1095753368001"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
testxyz 0 #41064 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 ***Marla's Gramps house doesn't appear to be 3 bedroom. Just an open shell if I'm viewing correctly. Somebody said groucho marx in regards to the L.D. Cooper news pic. I agree. It's interesting how popular the initials L.D. and Cooper are together. There seems to be no job record after L.D. got out of the Navy in 1955. Dewey did work as a line man per his widow Janet in a Mountain news interview. "All I know is that he worked power line construction – out of the union here in Salem, and they’d send him all over – out of state, too.” Seems like the brothers would follow each others lead...like L.D. going into Navy following his older brother. So the bottomline on the picture. L.D. was Groucho Marx or L.D. Cooper is one of the other guys or guys using L.D. initials in front of Cooper are not rare. LOL the open shell is how they would look as a logger's cabin. I'm sure after a while people moved in them put up dry wall, bathroom etc. but still to small to start putting walls inside....no room. I don't think any of the guys in the news article look like LD at all.. smokin99...the pics on the right are LD....you could possibly contact Dale Miller in Eugene where LD died, but I don't know how he will react to questions? I have the addy...... here is the August 5, 2011 interview http://newsok.com/marla-cooper-uncut/multimedia/video/1095753368001 That was a great interview with Marla. My Take Away.... She believes what she is saying is true. She is unintentionally sloppy with the facts at time. The FBI has devoted many man hours into researching her story. The FBI knows more than what us little people can dig up on L.D. Here is some more stuff that might be helpful to someone. Maybe. On January 23, 1964 the Oregonian newspaper ran a Safeway ad. A Mrs. Dewey Cooper won a free trip to Disneyland for 2. It was a Safeway promotion contest for a new Disney Movie called "Sword in the Stone" Attached is the proof...lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41065 June 21, 2013 well, I thought a lot of signs showed up. body language tells different stories. she never kept her eye's on the person asking a question. she closed her eye's a lot as if to remember. the big one was when he asked her about the money and she grabbed her ear. this is usually a sign of deception. not that it happens to everyone, but it happened at the exact moment. the funny one was her getting Dewey's name spelled wrong, but she could of been nervous. .The FBI was supposed to give an update in early 2012? one has to wonder where the jump area is according to Marla. she stated on a phone interview he landed inside a 6 mile area 7 miles from the home of LD. The only record floating around at the time was the home in Vancouver who everyone thought was Marla's LD. if that was what she was referring too? if not it must of been in a different area than the original jump site that many believe is now wrong. if it was in a different area they would have had zero problems going back for the money. she stated he landed over farmland, and yet nobody found the money or chute? on farmland? this was because he was a surveyor, which in incorrect because he wasn't one in this time period. she said he was able to pin point this because he was a surveyor and knew the area. which area was this? Reno, Eugene, Sisters, Washington? this story is going on two years now and the FBI has said nothing. I find that a little strange. as for the CIA? look up a man's name on here of Bob Knoss. if you want to read a crazy story about the Cooper case gone CIA. he's your man. it's very possible Marla could of read his story, been on here for years..... he just made a post on the last page before this one.....here is the phone interview..... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41066 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45***With the things posted by XYZ he sounds more and more like the BULL & FOX who contacted me for over 2 months. If it is the same he had Duane as his subject then and like you guys I kept finding the flaws in his story which he was building just the way Knoss built his. A house built of sticks and straws is pretty easy to blow down! XYZ has not shown any intentions towards you. no reason for intimidation. Definitely NO INTIMIDATION on my part. Just stating the facts that he sounds like - Bull and Fox which were one and the same. Check you PM's. Simply an observation on my part.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41067 June 21, 2013 airtwardo Quote I have never even seen a commercial airliner in the USA use only the rear stairs for boarding and deplaning. I have...In San Diego & Hawaii...also in Guam but that's arguably not U.S.A. (yet) YOUR 'personal experience' seems to be rather limited in this instance. Odd you should mention this about San Diego. I know that Duane and his lady of the day - took jobs with a service crew that cleaned the planes and delivered the meals to the planes in between 1962 and 1969. I would have to go back to my notes as I tried to take notes as she talked and/or after I got off the phone with her. So much of this I have not revisited in several yrs. Two note spiral note books of conversation I had with her after I was able to establish a relationship with her after the FBI scared the wits out of her when the contacted her around 1997- 1998. I would have to reference the note books to be accurate. TOO much information to keep in my now feeble mind.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41068 June 21, 2013 now, Marla is claiming the CIA put him up to this correct. why would he have to go into hiding and lose touch with his family? why where they worried the money was marked and Marla Quotes "he just knew that it (the crime) was wrong" he would be free a clear if the CIA was involved. did the CIA pick him and Dewey over military trained people? why Dewey, why would the CIA use him. Bob Knoss also claims it was Nixon dealing with airport security....very similar???? she claims her father told her a lot about the crime, her mother supposedly knows about it. nothing about CIA? not every family is tight. I had two Uncles that I seen maybe 10 times. this was before I came to Florida in 77. never seen them since. when I see records of these guys all over the place, flags go up when someone claims they are in hiding. I have a real hard time buying the hiding part. ok Jo, but the first post was saying XYZ was promoting Marla, then you made the second post.....I don't see anything in my PM box?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41069 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well, I thought a lot of signs showed up. body language tells different stories. she never kept her eye's on the person asking a question. she closed her eye's a lot as if to remember. the big one was when he asked her about the money and she grabbed her ear. this is usually a sign of deception. not that it happens to everyone, but it happened at the exact moment. the funny one was her getting Dewey's name spelled wrong, but she could of been nervous. .The FBI was supposed to give an update in early 2012? one has to wonder where the jump area is according to Marla. she stated on a phone interview he landed inside a 6 mile area 7 miles from the home of LD. The only record floating around at the time was the home in Vancouver who everyone thought was Marla's LD. if that was what she was referring too? if not it must of been in a different area than the original jump site that many believe is now wrong. if it was in a different area they would have had zero problems going back for the money. she stated he landed over farmland, and yet nobody found the money or chute? on farmland? this was because he was a surveyor, which in incorrect because he wasn't one in this time period. she said he was able to pin point this because he was a surveyor and knew the area. which area was this? Reno, Eugene, Sisters, Washington? this story is going on two years now and the FBI has said nothing. I find that a little strange. as for the CIA? look up a man's name on here of Bob Knoss. if you want to read a crazy story about the Cooper case gone CIA. he's your man. it's very possible Marla could of read his story, been on here for years..... he just made a post on the last page before this one.....here is the phone interview..... It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. Geoff would never fail to seize an opportunity like this if it presented itself. The colour alone is worth a mention. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #41070 June 21, 2013 smokin99 I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #41071 June 21, 2013 georger It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud. Just going off the one article I read they said the physical description didn't fit but I haven't had time to do any digging to see what they based that on. His basic profile is certainly intriguing. Hey if nothing else - I asked for something new to discuss and I got it. Thanks xyz and shutter.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #41072 June 21, 2013 Amazon ***I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41073 June 21, 2013 I haven't checked anything either. he is missing. here is the poster again....it's possible the FBI or US Marshal knew where he was at during the crime....don't know..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41074 June 21, 2013 smokin99 *** It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ? I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud. Just going off the one article I read they said the physical description didn't fit but I haven't had time to do any digging to see what they based that on. His basic profile is certainly intriguing. Hey if nothing else - I asked for something new to discuss and I got it. Thanks xyz and shutter. Im just being an idiot - I think I read the same articles you did - physical description didn't fit so once again the FBI cut bait. Once again the FBI cuts bait based on a "physical description". Makes you wonder what description they are using, but they must have faith in it whatever description 'they' are using, enough so to make or break an investigation ... and they move on. That to me is interesting. What physical description are they using? They must have faith in it (like Larry said) whatever 'it' is. A certain party has told me that Wild Bill was 'occupied and elsewhere' on the day of the hijacking so along with physical description he was dismissed rather quickly ? However, I am 100% serious in the fact nobody apparently except for locals in MN and WS, has brought Wild Bill forward as a cult Cooper candidate. He didn't make the front page in Cooper media tabloids? Ive never heard or seen his name in any discussion group until now. And, I believe if Geoff had run across Wild Bill while looking at FBI files, Wild Bill would be mentioned in Geoff's book - he's just too colorful a character not to include. But, this phrase 'ruled out on the basis of physical description' seems to be real, or it's a convenient ploy the FBI keeps repeating over and over and over again... They either have what they feel is a reliable physical description that they use... or it's a catch phrase they continue to use ... It makes you wonder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41075 June 21, 2013 smokin99 ******I'm just seeing Groucho Marx. I'm also seeing, if those pictures on the right are of LD, in pictures taken at two different times in his life, he apparently had a thing for big sideburns. Those kind of sideburns just don't seem to be the type of style that a guy would wear on and off. If you like that look on yourself, there's a reason - you probably think you see Elvis when you look in the mirror or something. Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz What I said about those Coopers in the Shenandoah Valley is not made up. Star Tannery to be precise. howdy cuz via my Daddy's rabi. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
