mrshutter45 21 #41101 June 21, 2013 pic #1 shows that the rear stairs are missing. pic #2 shows a jumper (blue circle) and the red line shows where the stairs should be. the rear stair were removed....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41102 June 21, 2013 Shutter Stated: the only problem I have with the testing in SE Asia is the fact of the stairs being removed. the rear door was used to pressurize the plane at will. it doesn't show or explain the stairs could be deployed. Jo Stated: Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways. Shutter Stated: Jo, you can clearly see in the video the back part where the stairs are supposed to be are no longer there. it appears it was a voided area. they could close the bulkhead door and pressurize the plane when needed. I will get a pic for you..... Jo Stated: Flying with the aft open was too much stress for the plane and increased fuel and decreased mobility. The STAIR WAY IS ALL that was removed. THEY left the part that closed the belly. YES the could have closed the Bulk head door, but that would NOT have solved the problem. Using the plane to support jumpers and cargo just meant the stairs themselves and any extensions where removed....NOT the door way itself - other wise they would have compromised the engineering of the plane itself and its ability to get in and out of where it had to go for an operative. Taking jumpers up for a exercise - they might have removed the entire thing - but it was NOT removed for the 1968 exercises nor was it removed for an exercise done AFTER the crime with a dummy or a crate. In the 1968 clip you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and out!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41103 June 21, 2013 skyjack71****** Quotethe only problem I have with the testing in SE Asia is the fact of the stairs being removed. the rear door was used to pressurize the plane at will. it doesn't show or explain the stairs could be deployed. Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways. Jo, you can clearly see in the video the back part where the stairs are supposed to be are no longer there. it appears it was a voided area. they could close the bulkhead door and pressurize the plane when needed. I will get a pic for you..... if the stairs were in place, you would see them below the aircraft.....I believe several steps where part of the plane, while the rest where part of the door. this is why a ramp is seen. NO - you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and out! jo, you would have to drop the stairs in order to get out!!!! you could not put cargo weight on these stairs. it's very simple...they removed the whole door! this picture should help you understand. the red line is where the stairs are hinged to the plane. there are several stairs above that. this is where you see the "sliding" happen and where they installed metal over this portion of the stairs. the door was removed...end of story."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41104 June 21, 2013 Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways Flying with the aft open was too much stress for the plane and increased fuel and decreased mobility. The STAIR WAY IS ALL that was removed. THEY left the part that closed the belly. YES the could have closed the Bulk head door, but that would NOT have solved the problem. Using the plane to support jumpers and cargo just meant the stairs themselves and any extensions where removed....NOT the door way itself - other wise they would have compromised the engineering of the plane itself and its ability to get in and out of where it had to go for an operative. Taking jumpers up for a exercise - they might have removed the entire thing - but it was NOT removed for the 1968 exercises nor was it removed for an exercise done AFTER the crime with a dummy or a crate. In the 1968 clip you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and outCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41105 June 21, 2013 do we have to automatically expect Cooper to of known the stairs would deploy in flight? testing and criminal active share a certain bond, the word "hope" plays a role in testing and criminal activity. I know the stairs have accidentally opened in flight, but not sure on the date. if he read this he could of got his answer as well? Quote 377 has made a few crucial comments imho, I want to address later - What Cooper knew or didn't know we won't know until we know who Cooper was, or talk to him. Lacking that one fact is crucial. regardless of who Cooper was or what he knew. Those rear stairs locked vs. unlocked present a totally different set of problems to anyone using them to exit while in flight. Unlocked they are unstable. Locked they are far more stable. In Cooper's situation we know the stairs were unlocked. Accordingly, as the Transcript and other factual records documents: Cooper spent what may be an inordinate of time testing those unlocked stairs, flap settings were changed to try and slow and stabilize the aircraft in turbulence so Cooper could bail from those UNLOCKED stairs, and there was a period of the flight just prior to Cooper bailing (not fully documented in the sanitized Transcripts but documented in other records) where Cooper and the pilots communicated on the interphone, either directly or through Tina before she went forward, trying to slow and stabilize the aircraft so Cooper could bail off those unstable UNLOCKED stairs. This is the actual record. Once Cooper's weight was off those stairs they at some point slammed back closed (the Pressure Bump). So, whatever his training or lack of training, or what he knows or does not know, he had to deal with the problem of those stairs under the flight conditions at the time, and he apparently did so successfully and separated from the aircraft (uninjured and alive?), and neither his body or his parachute were ever found. The crew has testified that the period during which Cooper bailed off the unlocked stairs was characterised by 'turbulence'. The pilot (Rataczak) has commented at length to any number of people about the problems he had slowing and stabilizing the plane during this period of turbulence specifically setting up conditions under which Cooper could bail, because they wanted him to bail and be gone along with his bomb!. The Transcripts DO NOT reflect the full communications which went on regarding those unlocked stairs and the dangers implicit in that condition - which people at Boeing and others were concerned about. One concern was that Cooper's bomb might be set off, whether he intended to or not, due to the turbulence and unstable nature of those unlocked stairs, at the time! And nobody knew for certain the nature of his bomb or whether it was still on the plane or perhaps even tied to those stairs - So, regardless of what Cooper knew or did not know, had training or had no training, was a military trained expert or a rank novice ... the nature of those unstable unlocked stairs riding in turbulence was the same, for anyone. We don't have the record of what Boeing witnesses said or did not say on the matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41106 June 21, 2013 skyjack71 Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways Flying with the aft open was too much stress for the plane and increased fuel and decreased mobility. The STAIR WAY IS ALL that was removed. THEY left the part that closed the belly. YES the could have closed the Bulk head door, but that would NOT have solved the problem. Using the plane to support jumpers and cargo just meant the stairs themselves and any extensions where removed....NOT the door way itself - other wise they would have compromised the engineering of the plane itself and its ability to get in and out of where it had to go for an operative. Taking jumpers up for a exercise - they might have removed the entire thing - but it was NOT removed for the 1968 exercises nor was it removed for an exercise done AFTER the crime with a dummy or a crate. In the 1968 clip you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and out Jo, the rear stairs...95% are the rear door! they were removed in the SE Asia film documentation. you must understand the door and stairs are the same. there are approx 4 to 5 stairs that don't move. this is where the slide plate was added. over those few stairs. the door and majority of the rear steps were removed....... I don't know how much more clear I can be on this. look at this diagram and you will see two different locations for the stairs. the bulkhead door swings open out of the way Jo....separate door from the stairwell door."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41107 June 21, 2013 Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41108 June 21, 2013 skyjack71Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again! Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41109 June 21, 2013 the plane is on the ground, he is giving a demonstration on how to exit. if you seen the video it's clear he is on the ground. the picture of the man exiting the plane is from the same 1968 video...... these two last diagrams should help you understand"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41110 June 21, 2013 Quotemrshutter45*** Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways Flying with the aft open was too much stress for the plane and increased fuel and decreased mobility. The STAIR WAY IS ALL that was removed. THEY left the part that closed the belly. YES the could have closed the Bulk head door, but that would NOT have solved the problem. Using the plane to support jumpers and cargo just meant the stairs themselves and any extensions where removed....NOT the door way itself - other wise they would have compromised the engineering of the plane itself and its ability to get in and out of where it had to go for an operative. Taking jumpers up for a exercise - they might have removed the entire thing - but it was NOT removed for the 1968 exercises nor was it removed for an exercise done AFTER the crime with a dummy or a crate. In the 1968 clip you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and out Jo, the rear stairs...95% are the rear door! they were removed in the SE Asia film documentation. you must understand the door and stairs are the same. there are approx 4 to 5 stairs that don't move. this is where the slide plate was added. over those few stairs. the door and majority of the rear steps were removed....... I don't know how much more clear I can be on this. look at this diagram and you will see two different locations for the stairs. the bulkhead door swings open out of the way Jo....separate door from the stairwell door. I understand where the Bulk head door is, but did NOT realize it was about 6 ft/7ft above the opening of the belly - so that is where they created the slide. Also was going by the picture of the simulation they did after the crime. I could only watch the videos AGES ago when Snowman put them on the thread - in 3 second times - I have dial-up and to watch it in its entirety I have never been able to do. NOW I can't even open anything. but still pics. I never ever got to see the video in real time Snowmman posted. ONE time and it took forever and forever. Someone was supposed to send me a disk or tape of it - but it never happened. Now I don't have a way to view videos - just CD's on 9 inch screen. All of the tapes I have - can't go back and view any of them. Just got them stored a way in a dry safe place.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41111 June 21, 2013 I still think Cooper must have known that a 727 could be jumped. Without that knowledge he was very possibly entering an aluminum jail cell that would prevent his escape until landing. With my 727 knowledge and skydiving experience in 71 I never wound have tried what Cooper did because I could not be sure I could get out of the plane in flight. Not any of the cockpit crew nor anyone at NWA ops could could determine whether the plane could be safely flown stairs down. They had to call Boeing. Turns out Boeing knew because they had done extensive flight tests probably for the CIA. 377Quote Regardless of what ANYONE KNEW! (which includes you and Cooper) ... the core facts of those stairs and how they react in turbulence was a set of facts anyone was going to have to face, one way or another, under the conditions Cooper decided to bail in from the plane On Nov 24th 1971, 8:10.... In the words of one former Boeing official I talked with: "Cooper got out of that hole by the skin of his teeth, whether he knew it or not. Those stairs were unlocked and very unstable. The tests after the hijacking proved that....." The Boeing person emphasized to me, it would have stressed anyone's experience or training and luck regardless of who they were, due to the physics of those stairs under the flight conditions at the time ... as documented by the post hijacking tests. This opinion helped form the idea that Cooper probably hadn't survived the jump and may have been injured trying to separate from the stairs ... And I am just as sure people will reply: People do it all the time. I'm trying to bring the focus back to the nature of those stairs under the conditions of the flight vs. what people knew or did not know, or what Cooper knew or did not know, and what one person would do or not do versus another person. The nature of those stairs during Cooper's hijacking remains the same, and may pose a serious problem when unlocked, in any event. And I am actually not sure what the implications of that is, for a trained person vs an untrained person. The Boeing guy I talked to, who helped design the Cooper vane later, basically was saying: 'It doesn't matter whether he was trained or not. The issues would be difficult if not impossible, for anyone'. These experts don't deal in Cult Candidate Crunching! So, Himmelsbach's contention, for example, that Cooper had died, did not come out of a vacuum. It was based on expert opinions like the Boeing official above. And his opinion (and other's similar opinions) remain unchanged, to this very day. These opinions were based on actual force and time data .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41112 June 21, 2013 Robert99 ***Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again! Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99 Let's take this fantasy a little bit futher. I think I see a tatoo on his left forearm...and a black watch band. Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! That me at this stage of the game - CRAZY and tired!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41113 June 21, 2013 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41114 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41115 June 21, 2013 georger ***well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41116 June 21, 2013 I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... ckret Jan 10, 2008 I got a call yesterday from one of the guys who did the jumps from the 727 for the movie "Pursuit of DB Cooper" said they jumped at 150 knots and that was as fast as they would go. I don't know if the studio capped the speed or they did, but my impression from talking to him was 150 knots was as much as any of them wanted to jump at."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41117 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). Let's throw this into the mix to be fair - Would an experienced person have an advantage? I think yes. The Boeing people seem to have taken a stronger stance saying 'pribably no'. Were the Boeing people and the FBi looking for a preconceived result? I think not. They took time to gather data and shared the data out impartially. Are the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed known and has that been shared - yes. Was any test conducted which duplicated the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed - evidently not. People tried to extrapolate and surmise based on the new tests and skydiver tests done after the fact. (Flight engineer Anderson participated in some of the later tests and felt the "bump" had been duplicated by the closing shut of the stairs... so far as I know). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41118 June 21, 2013 georger***I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41119 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41120 June 21, 2013 georger *********I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - I'm thinking the test might just be a little different. if not mistaken they pushed the sled down the stairs? this to me would cause a difference rather than one standing on it. seems it would have snapped or flung the door back up faster then just jumping off? they should of just let that guy jump that wanted too "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41121 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41122 June 21, 2013 are you speaking of this photo?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41123 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41124 June 21, 2013 Robert99***are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Yes, I'm doing this right now, but the best I can do (probably) is show what they read. impossible to read the gauges numbers...... here is one pic.... the bottom gauge (needle) appears to be black or a different color than the two above? still working on different things with the pic..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41125 June 22, 2013 mrshutter45well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... As you guys probably already know here, Paul Joseph Cini skyjacked a Canadian airlines DC-8 on November 13, 1971. Eleven days before Cooper. In Sept. of 1971 after a long night of drinking and watching a story on TV about a failed hijacking he had a EUREKA MOMENT. Jumping from the plane is the best way to escape. I believe Paul Cini was the first to try and parachute as a way to escape. Anyways......Can one safely jump from a commercial DC-8? It appears the doors wouldn't want to come open in mid-flight. Plus a parachuter might hit the pesky tail in the back. DC-8 Picture http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/media/images/DC-8EAA.JPG Paul Cini Article http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/post/53036464519/6-paul-joseph-cini Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1640 1641 1642 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 1650 Next Page 1645 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
mrshutter45 21 #41106 June 21, 2013 skyjack71 Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways Flying with the aft open was too much stress for the plane and increased fuel and decreased mobility. The STAIR WAY IS ALL that was removed. THEY left the part that closed the belly. YES the could have closed the Bulk head door, but that would NOT have solved the problem. Using the plane to support jumpers and cargo just meant the stairs themselves and any extensions where removed....NOT the door way itself - other wise they would have compromised the engineering of the plane itself and its ability to get in and out of where it had to go for an operative. Taking jumpers up for a exercise - they might have removed the entire thing - but it was NOT removed for the 1968 exercises nor was it removed for an exercise done AFTER the crime with a dummy or a crate. In the 1968 clip you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and out Jo, the rear stairs...95% are the rear door! they were removed in the SE Asia film documentation. you must understand the door and stairs are the same. there are approx 4 to 5 stairs that don't move. this is where the slide plate was added. over those few stairs. the door and majority of the rear steps were removed....... I don't know how much more clear I can be on this. look at this diagram and you will see two different locations for the stairs. the bulkhead door swings open out of the way Jo....separate door from the stairwell door."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41107 June 21, 2013 Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41108 June 21, 2013 skyjack71Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again! Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41109 June 21, 2013 the plane is on the ground, he is giving a demonstration on how to exit. if you seen the video it's clear he is on the ground. the picture of the man exiting the plane is from the same 1968 video...... these two last diagrams should help you understand"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41110 June 21, 2013 Quotemrshutter45*** Think about what you just said. The testing was done - the aft door was NOT removed just the stairs so they could slide the cargo out. In fact they could have had a slide over the stairs. The complete Aft way was NOT removed - just modified or altered to accommodate cargo going out the door and putting jumpers out the door faster! WHO did the modification. The authorities, Boeing and who were the mechanics who did the work for the modification? A lot of people involved in a lot of different ways Flying with the aft open was too much stress for the plane and increased fuel and decreased mobility. The STAIR WAY IS ALL that was removed. THEY left the part that closed the belly. YES the could have closed the Bulk head door, but that would NOT have solved the problem. Using the plane to support jumpers and cargo just meant the stairs themselves and any extensions where removed....NOT the door way itself - other wise they would have compromised the engineering of the plane itself and its ability to get in and out of where it had to go for an operative. Taking jumpers up for a exercise - they might have removed the entire thing - but it was NOT removed for the 1968 exercises nor was it removed for an exercise done AFTER the crime with a dummy or a crate. In the 1968 clip you can see them sliding out and the cargo being slid out! The stairs was gone but the door was NOT...it became the conveyor for the cargo and the jumpers. Perhaps the extension was removed but the bottom part of the plane WAS not. Perhaps the stairs extented beyond the aft way. The closure was NOT removed at least not in what Snowman posted. They are sliding down and out Jo, the rear stairs...95% are the rear door! they were removed in the SE Asia film documentation. you must understand the door and stairs are the same. there are approx 4 to 5 stairs that don't move. this is where the slide plate was added. over those few stairs. the door and majority of the rear steps were removed....... I don't know how much more clear I can be on this. look at this diagram and you will see two different locations for the stairs. the bulkhead door swings open out of the way Jo....separate door from the stairwell door. I understand where the Bulk head door is, but did NOT realize it was about 6 ft/7ft above the opening of the belly - so that is where they created the slide. Also was going by the picture of the simulation they did after the crime. I could only watch the videos AGES ago when Snowman put them on the thread - in 3 second times - I have dial-up and to watch it in its entirety I have never been able to do. NOW I can't even open anything. but still pics. I never ever got to see the video in real time Snowmman posted. ONE time and it took forever and forever. Someone was supposed to send me a disk or tape of it - but it never happened. Now I don't have a way to view videos - just CD's on 9 inch screen. All of the tapes I have - can't go back and view any of them. Just got them stored a way in a dry safe place.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41111 June 21, 2013 I still think Cooper must have known that a 727 could be jumped. Without that knowledge he was very possibly entering an aluminum jail cell that would prevent his escape until landing. With my 727 knowledge and skydiving experience in 71 I never wound have tried what Cooper did because I could not be sure I could get out of the plane in flight. Not any of the cockpit crew nor anyone at NWA ops could could determine whether the plane could be safely flown stairs down. They had to call Boeing. Turns out Boeing knew because they had done extensive flight tests probably for the CIA. 377Quote Regardless of what ANYONE KNEW! (which includes you and Cooper) ... the core facts of those stairs and how they react in turbulence was a set of facts anyone was going to have to face, one way or another, under the conditions Cooper decided to bail in from the plane On Nov 24th 1971, 8:10.... In the words of one former Boeing official I talked with: "Cooper got out of that hole by the skin of his teeth, whether he knew it or not. Those stairs were unlocked and very unstable. The tests after the hijacking proved that....." The Boeing person emphasized to me, it would have stressed anyone's experience or training and luck regardless of who they were, due to the physics of those stairs under the flight conditions at the time ... as documented by the post hijacking tests. This opinion helped form the idea that Cooper probably hadn't survived the jump and may have been injured trying to separate from the stairs ... And I am just as sure people will reply: People do it all the time. I'm trying to bring the focus back to the nature of those stairs under the conditions of the flight vs. what people knew or did not know, or what Cooper knew or did not know, and what one person would do or not do versus another person. The nature of those stairs during Cooper's hijacking remains the same, and may pose a serious problem when unlocked, in any event. And I am actually not sure what the implications of that is, for a trained person vs an untrained person. The Boeing guy I talked to, who helped design the Cooper vane later, basically was saying: 'It doesn't matter whether he was trained or not. The issues would be difficult if not impossible, for anyone'. These experts don't deal in Cult Candidate Crunching! So, Himmelsbach's contention, for example, that Cooper had died, did not come out of a vacuum. It was based on expert opinions like the Boeing official above. And his opinion (and other's similar opinions) remain unchanged, to this very day. These opinions were based on actual force and time data .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41112 June 21, 2013 Robert99 ***Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again! Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99 Let's take this fantasy a little bit futher. I think I see a tatoo on his left forearm...and a black watch band. Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! That me at this stage of the game - CRAZY and tired!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41113 June 21, 2013 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41114 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41115 June 21, 2013 georger ***well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41116 June 21, 2013 I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... ckret Jan 10, 2008 I got a call yesterday from one of the guys who did the jumps from the 727 for the movie "Pursuit of DB Cooper" said they jumped at 150 knots and that was as fast as they would go. I don't know if the studio capped the speed or they did, but my impression from talking to him was 150 knots was as much as any of them wanted to jump at."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41117 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). Let's throw this into the mix to be fair - Would an experienced person have an advantage? I think yes. The Boeing people seem to have taken a stronger stance saying 'pribably no'. Were the Boeing people and the FBi looking for a preconceived result? I think not. They took time to gather data and shared the data out impartially. Are the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed known and has that been shared - yes. Was any test conducted which duplicated the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed - evidently not. People tried to extrapolate and surmise based on the new tests and skydiver tests done after the fact. (Flight engineer Anderson participated in some of the later tests and felt the "bump" had been duplicated by the closing shut of the stairs... so far as I know). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41118 June 21, 2013 georger***I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41119 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41120 June 21, 2013 georger *********I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - I'm thinking the test might just be a little different. if not mistaken they pushed the sled down the stairs? this to me would cause a difference rather than one standing on it. seems it would have snapped or flung the door back up faster then just jumping off? they should of just let that guy jump that wanted too "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41121 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41122 June 21, 2013 are you speaking of this photo?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41123 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41124 June 21, 2013 Robert99***are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Yes, I'm doing this right now, but the best I can do (probably) is show what they read. impossible to read the gauges numbers...... here is one pic.... the bottom gauge (needle) appears to be black or a different color than the two above? still working on different things with the pic..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41125 June 22, 2013 mrshutter45well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... As you guys probably already know here, Paul Joseph Cini skyjacked a Canadian airlines DC-8 on November 13, 1971. Eleven days before Cooper. In Sept. of 1971 after a long night of drinking and watching a story on TV about a failed hijacking he had a EUREKA MOMENT. Jumping from the plane is the best way to escape. I believe Paul Cini was the first to try and parachute as a way to escape. Anyways......Can one safely jump from a commercial DC-8? It appears the doors wouldn't want to come open in mid-flight. Plus a parachuter might hit the pesky tail in the back. DC-8 Picture http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/media/images/DC-8EAA.JPG Paul Cini Article http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/post/53036464519/6-paul-joseph-cini Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1640 1641 1642 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 1650 Next Page 1645 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
georger 197 #41111 June 21, 2013 I still think Cooper must have known that a 727 could be jumped. Without that knowledge he was very possibly entering an aluminum jail cell that would prevent his escape until landing. With my 727 knowledge and skydiving experience in 71 I never wound have tried what Cooper did because I could not be sure I could get out of the plane in flight. Not any of the cockpit crew nor anyone at NWA ops could could determine whether the plane could be safely flown stairs down. They had to call Boeing. Turns out Boeing knew because they had done extensive flight tests probably for the CIA. 377Quote Regardless of what ANYONE KNEW! (which includes you and Cooper) ... the core facts of those stairs and how they react in turbulence was a set of facts anyone was going to have to face, one way or another, under the conditions Cooper decided to bail in from the plane On Nov 24th 1971, 8:10.... In the words of one former Boeing official I talked with: "Cooper got out of that hole by the skin of his teeth, whether he knew it or not. Those stairs were unlocked and very unstable. The tests after the hijacking proved that....." The Boeing person emphasized to me, it would have stressed anyone's experience or training and luck regardless of who they were, due to the physics of those stairs under the flight conditions at the time ... as documented by the post hijacking tests. This opinion helped form the idea that Cooper probably hadn't survived the jump and may have been injured trying to separate from the stairs ... And I am just as sure people will reply: People do it all the time. I'm trying to bring the focus back to the nature of those stairs under the conditions of the flight vs. what people knew or did not know, or what Cooper knew or did not know, and what one person would do or not do versus another person. The nature of those stairs during Cooper's hijacking remains the same, and may pose a serious problem when unlocked, in any event. And I am actually not sure what the implications of that is, for a trained person vs an untrained person. The Boeing guy I talked to, who helped design the Cooper vane later, basically was saying: 'It doesn't matter whether he was trained or not. The issues would be difficult if not impossible, for anyone'. These experts don't deal in Cult Candidate Crunching! So, Himmelsbach's contention, for example, that Cooper had died, did not come out of a vacuum. It was based on expert opinions like the Boeing official above. And his opinion (and other's similar opinions) remain unchanged, to this very day. These opinions were based on actual force and time data .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41112 June 21, 2013 Robert99 ***Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again! Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99 Let's take this fantasy a little bit futher. I think I see a tatoo on his left forearm...and a black watch band. Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! That me at this stage of the game - CRAZY and tired!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41113 June 21, 2013 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41114 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41115 June 21, 2013 georger ***well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41116 June 21, 2013 I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... ckret Jan 10, 2008 I got a call yesterday from one of the guys who did the jumps from the 727 for the movie "Pursuit of DB Cooper" said they jumped at 150 knots and that was as fast as they would go. I don't know if the studio capped the speed or they did, but my impression from talking to him was 150 knots was as much as any of them wanted to jump at."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41117 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). Let's throw this into the mix to be fair - Would an experienced person have an advantage? I think yes. The Boeing people seem to have taken a stronger stance saying 'pribably no'. Were the Boeing people and the FBi looking for a preconceived result? I think not. They took time to gather data and shared the data out impartially. Are the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed known and has that been shared - yes. Was any test conducted which duplicated the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed - evidently not. People tried to extrapolate and surmise based on the new tests and skydiver tests done after the fact. (Flight engineer Anderson participated in some of the later tests and felt the "bump" had been duplicated by the closing shut of the stairs... so far as I know). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41118 June 21, 2013 georger***I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41119 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41120 June 21, 2013 georger *********I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - I'm thinking the test might just be a little different. if not mistaken they pushed the sled down the stairs? this to me would cause a difference rather than one standing on it. seems it would have snapped or flung the door back up faster then just jumping off? they should of just let that guy jump that wanted too "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41121 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41122 June 21, 2013 are you speaking of this photo?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41123 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41124 June 21, 2013 Robert99***are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Yes, I'm doing this right now, but the best I can do (probably) is show what they read. impossible to read the gauges numbers...... here is one pic.... the bottom gauge (needle) appears to be black or a different color than the two above? still working on different things with the pic..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41125 June 22, 2013 mrshutter45well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... As you guys probably already know here, Paul Joseph Cini skyjacked a Canadian airlines DC-8 on November 13, 1971. Eleven days before Cooper. In Sept. of 1971 after a long night of drinking and watching a story on TV about a failed hijacking he had a EUREKA MOMENT. Jumping from the plane is the best way to escape. I believe Paul Cini was the first to try and parachute as a way to escape. Anyways......Can one safely jump from a commercial DC-8? It appears the doors wouldn't want to come open in mid-flight. Plus a parachuter might hit the pesky tail in the back. DC-8 Picture http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/media/images/DC-8EAA.JPG Paul Cini Article http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/post/53036464519/6-paul-joseph-cini Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1640 1641 1642 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 1650 Next Page 1645 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
skyjack71 0 #41112 June 21, 2013 Robert99 ***Cooper if alive would be 89 yrs old and regardless of who he was is deceased. We can discuss this till the end of time and NO one is ever going to agree on very little about the crime. Strange - did any one notice something in one of the pics that Mrshutter posted. The man with the V neck tee shirt. He doesn't have a chute on! Yet, he has a something infront of my like a belly pack. Obviously the pic is made from the ground - but, is my mind completely going or am I seeing Duane everywhere I look or turn. That guy sure looks like Duane as a much younger man.....the way he looked in the Early 60's - such as 1962 to 1964. Surely that picture is dated AFTER that time period - but, I thought I might be having an episode when l quickly opened it. Think I will go back and look at it again! Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99 Let's take this fantasy a little bit futher. I think I see a tatoo on his left forearm...and a black watch band. Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! That me at this stage of the game - CRAZY and tired!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41113 June 21, 2013 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41114 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45 well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41115 June 21, 2013 georger ***well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that! "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41116 June 21, 2013 I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... ckret Jan 10, 2008 I got a call yesterday from one of the guys who did the jumps from the 727 for the movie "Pursuit of DB Cooper" said they jumped at 150 knots and that was as fast as they would go. I don't know if the studio capped the speed or they did, but my impression from talking to him was 150 knots was as much as any of them wanted to jump at."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41117 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). Let's throw this into the mix to be fair - Would an experienced person have an advantage? I think yes. The Boeing people seem to have taken a stronger stance saying 'pribably no'. Were the Boeing people and the FBi looking for a preconceived result? I think not. They took time to gather data and shared the data out impartially. Are the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed known and has that been shared - yes. Was any test conducted which duplicated the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed - evidently not. People tried to extrapolate and surmise based on the new tests and skydiver tests done after the fact. (Flight engineer Anderson participated in some of the later tests and felt the "bump" had been duplicated by the closing shut of the stairs... so far as I know). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41118 June 21, 2013 georger***I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41119 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41120 June 21, 2013 georger *********I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - I'm thinking the test might just be a little different. if not mistaken they pushed the sled down the stairs? this to me would cause a difference rather than one standing on it. seems it would have snapped or flung the door back up faster then just jumping off? they should of just let that guy jump that wanted too "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41121 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41122 June 21, 2013 are you speaking of this photo?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41123 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41124 June 21, 2013 Robert99***are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Yes, I'm doing this right now, but the best I can do (probably) is show what they read. impossible to read the gauges numbers...... here is one pic.... the bottom gauge (needle) appears to be black or a different color than the two above? still working on different things with the pic..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites testxyz 0 #41125 June 22, 2013 mrshutter45well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... As you guys probably already know here, Paul Joseph Cini skyjacked a Canadian airlines DC-8 on November 13, 1971. Eleven days before Cooper. In Sept. of 1971 after a long night of drinking and watching a story on TV about a failed hijacking he had a EUREKA MOMENT. Jumping from the plane is the best way to escape. I believe Paul Cini was the first to try and parachute as a way to escape. Anyways......Can one safely jump from a commercial DC-8? It appears the doors wouldn't want to come open in mid-flight. Plus a parachuter might hit the pesky tail in the back. DC-8 Picture http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/media/images/DC-8EAA.JPG Paul Cini Article http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/post/53036464519/6-paul-joseph-cini Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1640 1641 1642 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 1650 Next Page 1645 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
mrshutter45 21 #41120 June 21, 2013 georger *********I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers - I'm thinking the test might just be a little different. if not mistaken they pushed the sled down the stairs? this to me would cause a difference rather than one standing on it. seems it would have snapped or flung the door back up faster then just jumping off? they should of just let that guy jump that wanted too "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41121 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45******I wonder how much difference there was with thew filming of the movie where the stuntman jumped off the stairs. the plane was going about 150. don't know if they were talking knots or MPH. I'm sure they did several jumps. here is a pic of the stuntman jumping. note they put the ripcord on the right... Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41122 June 21, 2013 are you speaking of this photo?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41123 June 21, 2013 mrshutter45are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41124 June 21, 2013 Robert99***are you speaking of this photo? Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Yes, I'm doing this right now, but the best I can do (probably) is show what they read. impossible to read the gauges numbers...... here is one pic.... the bottom gauge (needle) appears to be black or a different color than the two above? still working on different things with the pic..."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
testxyz 0 #41125 June 22, 2013 mrshutter45well of course they had the stairs on them for the FBI test. cooper jumped off the stairs. the guys in the video clearly went down the slide and out of the plane. no reason to have stairs in the military operation. the railing would have caused trouble as well. they cleared it out in order to have a smooth slot for cargo exit. I doubt it was a big deal putting the plane back to spec. here is a pic of the plane used in the demonstration.... "Hell I don't even remember which arm had the tatoo on the forearm and which one was the upper arm. I am tired of trying to remember things! Time for me to take my nap - again! " according to Duane's prison record his arms were full of them... As you guys probably already know here, Paul Joseph Cini skyjacked a Canadian airlines DC-8 on November 13, 1971. Eleven days before Cooper. In Sept. of 1971 after a long night of drinking and watching a story on TV about a failed hijacking he had a EUREKA MOMENT. Jumping from the plane is the best way to escape. I believe Paul Cini was the first to try and parachute as a way to escape. Anyways......Can one safely jump from a commercial DC-8? It appears the doors wouldn't want to come open in mid-flight. Plus a parachuter might hit the pesky tail in the back. DC-8 Picture http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/media/images/DC-8EAA.JPG Paul Cini Article http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/post/53036464519/6-paul-joseph-cini Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
