DB Cooper

[377 20]

Georger wrote

Quote

Facts count

Indeed they do. But I don't have a reliable fact filter to run forum data through. For example: was there a currency debris field? If so how was it distributed? We're shards found sub surface?

Supposed eye witnesses have taken contradictory position on this subject.

And what about the chutes? Norman has a different story than Cossey. Who is right?

And why blame Blevins for everything that is wrong here? Plenty was amiss prior to his entry.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[propblast 0]

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Georger wrote

Quote

I seem to remember the following passages:

'was hit by the tractor blade as he was making a new
road ... '

'kids saw the chute partially unearthed ... pulled on it
but it wouldn't come out ... father got off the tractor
and looked ... so went home ... and came back
and finally cut the chute free ... '

I do remember reading this tractor story Georger but I have no way of knowing if it is true or accurate. The problem with researching "facts" on this forum is that it isn't a peer reviewed publication. As BK denmonstrates, anyone can get published. Any wild theory can get publsihed as alleged fact.

If the tractor account is accurate I'd sure like to know what remained unexcavated. I cant imagine that the FBI or the US military wouldnt have wanted to see if human remains were there. The US military goes to GREAT lengths to investigate freshly discovered old crash sites to see if human remains can be found and identified.

What lies beneath? To me that's an interesting question. Maybe Bruce will find out someday.

377

Yep,
This is something Im interested in. Cooper or not.

Propblast

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

mrshutter45:

You say

"I will have to read up again on the Mountain news, but I recall Hayden coming up short on any real evidence proving his chutes were used, but don't quote me on it...."

I say Hayden provided two back chutes and only got one back from the FBI. That makes me think DB used one of Hayden's chutes. I think Bruce will back up this information as true facts.

Cossey can claim that DB used one of his chutes but I don't believe him. I wish Hayden and 377 could examine the Amboy chute, but that will never happen,

Bob Sailshaw
[email protected]

well, I read Bruce's story again, I must say it sounds good, but a couple lines make me wonder.

"Norman says the cabbie returned with the signed receipt, but that he can’t find it presently."

“They paid up very nicely,” Norman said. “It was a very good experience with Northwest Airlines.”

"Sadly, however, Norman was unable to provide any authenticating documents for the parachute."

If he went to court to regain the chute, wouldn't this be evidence it was in the hijacking? why did he
fail to produce the other documents? receipt from NW or the cabbie?

just more mystery around the chutes........

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[MeyerLouie 5]

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Quote

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Robert99 replies: Blevins, the information above states that the maximum cargo load is 400 pounds, not that the parachute weighs 400 pounds.


Robert99

Damn! I wish you hadnt posted that!

Doncha know that all cargo parachutes weigh 400
pounds? Blevins carries one around everyday just for
exercise .... the 400 lb Haynes jockey strap!

4 Clydesdale gonads abreast!

Sorry.

I was going to let Blevins continue just to see how far he wold go with this ... it's classic Blevins-speak.

__________________________________________________

Blevins:

This is a classic example of why you have no credibility -- speaking about parachutes and skydiving stuff you know absoluely nothing about. Notice the other non-skydivers and folks here who don't know much about parachutes and skydiving are not speaking much here. Maybe that's something you ought to try sometime. Speak only when you know what you're talking about or have some valid information to offer. Otherwise, be quiet! Unbelievable!

MeyerLouie

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99 replies:

Just exactly who was buying cargo parachutes in February 1945 other than the military?

Robert99

ROBERT! Smoke jumper used cargo chutes to get their equipment to the ground OR to get supplies to the jumpers after they were on the ground - ALL of this is in a smoke jumper book!

I expect this is why someone a while back questioned if there had been any fires in the area of the Amboy find.

ONE of the few things that explain a cargo chute. Could also have been a training drop.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Quote

the 400 lb Haynes jockey strap!

Which ties right in to Duane Webers CB handle.

377

When I was reading the posts made today - that is exactly what I was thinking about and was going to make a post - YOU beat me to it!

Worlds Greatest Jock Carrier!
Duane Weber's CB handle.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Robert99 replies:

Just exactly who was buying cargo parachutes in February 1945 other than the military?

Robert99

ROBERT! Smoke jumper used cargo chutes to get their equipment to the ground OR to get supplies to the jumpers after they were on the ground - ALL of this is in a smoke jumper book!

I expect this is why someone a while back questioned if there had been any fires in the area of the Amboy find.

ONE of the few things that explain a cargo chute. Could also have been a training drop.

Jo, I doubt very much if the Smoke Jumpers needed a parachute that could handle 400 pounds.

Remember that Smoke Jumpers were for jumping into remote areas with minimal equipment in order to fight the fire until more personnel could arrive by land. So Smoke Jumpers at the start of a fire would basically be few in numbers and using only tools that they could carry and use by hand. Of course, those tools were dropped in by small parachutes but they sure didn't weigh 400 pounds.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99 states:

Just exactly who was buying cargo parachutes in February 1945 other than the military?

Jo Replies:

ROBERT! Smoke jumper used cargo chutes to get their equipment to the ground OR to get supplies to the jumpers after they were on the ground - ALL of this is in a smoke jumper book!

I expect this is why someone a while back questioned if there had been any fires in the area of the Amboy find.

ONE of the few things that explains a cargo chute. Could also have been a training drop.


Robert Replies:
Jo, I doubt very much if the Smoke Jumpers needed a parachute that could handle 400 pounds.

Remember that Smoke Jumpers were for jumping into remote areas with minimal equipment in order to fight the fire until more personnel could arrive by land. So Smoke Jumpers at the start of a fire would basically be few in numbers and using only tools that they could carry and use by hand. Of course, those tools were dropped in by small parachutes but they sure didn't weigh 400 pounds.

JO REPLIES!

I have some OLD books that will contradict what you stated above, but right now I am in the middle of something else. Yes, they carried their immediate equipment with them, but they also dropped supplies to the camps. One can only carry so much. Men and Tall Trees is the book I think addresses this or Young Men and Fires (I do not have a copy of this last book, but made some copies of a few of the pages that were of interest to me). I will state CATEGORICALLY and with CONFIDENCE YOU ARE WRONG!

When those jumpers get on the ground they only have so much in rations and food and equipment is dropped. I remember one of the articles about their Dropping Radio Equipment to the crew. I remember this because it was significant to the things I knew about Weber.

Smoke Jumpers and forestry was the very first part of my research and it WAS extensive. This was because of things Duane had told me about people he knew (which it turns out he was talking about himself in 3rd person).

It took me a long time to realize what he had done during the 17 yrs of my marriage to him. He could NOT tell me he was an ex-con, but he sure did talk about ex-cons, crimes and smokejumper and he knew all of the equipment.

How I knew about Spokane - WHAT the FBI never wanted me to know! An old jumper in Spokane by the name of Harris was the key and that name turned up Paperlegs and others he spoke of. WONDER WHY the FBI NEVER acknowledge that Weber had an arrest record in WA prior to 1950!

One story Duane told me and I did NOT get what he was talking about - crates of supplies dropped in to a camp site. This dropping of crates might not have had to do with smokejumpers, but it did have to do with Forestry workers...since it is obvious Weber was NOT stationed overseas during WAR time.

Now if U want we can discuss - covert and soldiers of fortune, but frankly I do NOT like going in that direction - but, THE FBI was the one who caused me to even entertain this, plus Duane talking about 3 training sites during Paperlegs reign with Intermountain Operations out of Canon, Leadville and AZ and a small area North of Ft. Collins.

This may have been Duane's connections to Tony Wong, Tommy Gunn, Paperlegs and P.Harris and perhaps his connection to MOUSE! I now believe I know who Mouse was because that would explain Duane's fascination with a fire in the Western location in the after 88. He told me he knew 2 guys who worked that area and this was the same media event in which he mentioned he was fire training. The time of this was 1962 to 1966 - Duane was known as John (Johnnie) Collins.

This is ALSO the same time era of Ed Horan who I believe to also have been an excon - an escapee!

A guy with xxxxxsssss was also known to hire excons in that time frame - approached me after I enquired of him about Duane's confession and Duane's employment with him. The man made a statement that is NOT puzzling if you want to believe the soldier of fortune or covert stories. "I wasn't proud of all I did". IT was a slip of the tongue in a conversation - but he quickly caught himself when I asked what that was about.

Individuals from the past of Duane seemed to be far and between except those from the era of John (Johnnie) Collins.
Duane was a man without a past to most who knew him other than casually. WHY?

Does it make sense why I drift in and out of the covert / soldier of fortune - even mafia things? Remember that the MAIN man (NOT the man mentioned above) was CONNECTED to many things and polilticians and he arranged a lot of security and he had connection to people in HIGH Places...Political and under the table! That is why he was able to warn of foreboding, but he was ignored. When that happened he did WHAT he could to protect the individual he admired - but those who do NOT want to be protected cannot be protected.

The inevitable then happens, but all of this is just the ACTIVE imagination of a WOMAN who is not suppose to know anything about any of this. She is crazy, Off her rocker and delusional.

It is easier for me to be heard when others think I am making up a bunch of CRAP! Espionage - NO that is NOT the case....but, there were individuals who worked to protect America - and these men were NOT acknowledge as this was NOT a government nor a co-op operation, but a PRIVATE battle a great man waged because of a love for this country. Not sure the government ever sanctioned his means of finding information to help the country he loved....but they know he did provide reliable information when it was needed.

I can now tell this, but I couldn't before - just encase any of U actually care! What I have said above IS all I can state and I have to state - it is ONLY MY OPINION! DO not ask me to prove it! When the time comes perhaps the truths will be known as it stands now there is a man who did many things for his country - but sometime had to scoop down into the underground to obtain information - no one else could.

ONE person posting here just "may" know what I am referring to and I do wish he would contact me. CAN I prove the things I have stated? NO!
Do these things have ANYTHING to do with Cooper? NO!

JUST something I had to say and that maybe someday someone will understand some of these things. THIS man had NOTHING to do with Cooper, but knew who John Collins aka Duane Weber was or the other away around.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[propblast 0]

Robert,
You would be incorrect on the smokejumper equipment drop. They absolutely dropped/drop cargo. A easy historical example for you to see this would be the Mann Gulch Fire Tragedy.

Propblast

[BruceSmith 3]

Greetings All,

I have completed a draft chapter on the subject of Cooper copycats and have a list of ten guys who did the Cooper jump.

Here's an excerpt from the chapter;

Chapter 21
Copycats and the possibility of a group effort

At the risk of becoming lost in the fog of conspiracy, we need to look more closely at the possibility of a group job in the Norjak case and examine the copycats, if for no other reason than some in the FBI, such as Ralph Himmelsbach, consider DB Cooper to be one.

“You have to remember that Cooper was a copycat,” he told me when I visited him at his home in Oregon.

Once Ralph launched into his subject he re-iterated numerous details of the early extortive skyjackings, with the first being conducted by a fellow he called “Gaylord.”

However, the skyjacker’s name was actually Paul Cini and he skyjacked an Air Canada flight out of Calgary, Alberta two weeks before Cooper’s caper.

“With each new skyjacking, the skyjackers improved their techniques,” Ralph said, echoing fellow FBI agent Russ Calame’s evaluation of McCoy’s effort.

When Ralph began discussing McCoy I was surprised to hear him confirm Calame’s conclusion that McCoy was not home in Provo during the Cooper skyjacking. However, what I found most interesting was that Ralph was willing to hold an opinion wholly in opposition to the current view held by the FBI.

“We did look at McCoy in the Cooper case, but he was in Las Vegas when the Cooper skyjacking took place,” Ralph declared.

"But what did McCoy do in Las Vegas during the Cooper hijacking? Was he just passing through?" I mused but was unable to pursue because Ralph’s dinner company arrived. To date, I have not been able to follow-up on this lead with him.

I’d also like Ralph to amplify his perspective on the copycats, as he is the only one I know to have stated that there were twenty Cooper-esque skyjackers in the months following Norjak. Other published accounts say a dozen or fifteen, such as Wikipedia. But exactly what are the details of these hijackings? At least what are their names? I have not been able to find a list and Himmelsbach does not provide a complete rendition of the copycats in his book.

Nor does anyone else, but most authors talk about the four primary copycats: McCoy, Robb Heady, Martin McNally, and Frederick Hahneman. All made it to the ground safely - even McNally even though he had never parachuted before – proving false the proposition that the Cooper jump was too dangerous to be successful.

But the essential question remains: are they a group? Did any of them know DB Cooper, or Paul Cini? Were they coached, or orchestrated in any manner? How did these skyjackings evolve, as Himmelsbach has observed. Was it an organic process and achieved by skyjackers merely reading newspaper accounts of previous hijackings?

Frankly, there is not enough information available to the public to make any determination, and that shows some of the limitations of a non-law enforcement investigation – we just don’t have enough muscle to dig out that kind of data.

Nevertheless, let’s look at what we have, starting with a list of the known copycats – and the proviso that to be a copycat a hijacker has to ask for a ransom and at least one parachute.

Thus, the known copycats are:
1. Paul Cini, 11. 13. 71
2. DB Cooper, 11. 24. 71
3. Everett Holt, 12. 24. 71
4. Billy Hurst, Jr., 1. 12. 72
5. Richard LaPoint, 1. 20. 72
6. Richard McCoy, 4. 7. 72
7. Stanley Spreck, 4. 9 72
8. Frederick Hahneman, 5. 5. 72
9. Robb Heady, 6. 2. 72
10. Martin McNally, 6. 23. 72

There are plenty of other skyjackers, and many of them are fascinating, such as Robert Sibley, who commandeered an airplane in Reno a few months after Robb Heady and ended up being arrested at Sea-Tac by some of the FBI agents who were on the Norjak case. But these other skyjackers didn’t ask for a parachute, and their getaway plan was of a more traditional form - either flying to a foreign destination like Algeria, or storming away in a car, which usually resulted in a fatal shoot-out.

[skyjack71 0]

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Robert,
You would be incorrect on the smokejumper equipment drop. They absolutely dropped/drop cargo. A easy historical example for you to see this would be the Mann Gulch Fire Tragedy.

THANK YOU! JO is no idiot and Jo did do her research in the area. I have played dumb about a lot of things I know, but it is time for me to move on. So much of what you guy go over and over is repetitive.

Please note the post prior to this one. I have finally made my statement - and there will be nothing more said. IF and WHEN the appropriate parties contact me - perhaps someday more about Duane's Webers past will come to the surface.

I THINK it is time to reveal the REST of the STORY, but that is NOT up to ME. I am letting and putting on notice - that I have known this since DAY one and waited for someone to trust me enough to tell me the rest of the story, but it was NOT forthcoming.

Therefore the story of Cooper will never be complete....this individual probably did NOT know Weber was Cooper and may have learned only after the fact.
The Cooper caper had NOTHING to do with the great things this man did and the means by which he accomplished his goals.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

The Amboy chute appears to have all the shroud lines cut at a point that is above where the lines attach to the risers (risers are four webbing straps that connect the lines to the harness).

If Cooper jumped with a rig that had Capewell cutaway riser attachments why would he have cut any lines? Capewells are quick release connectors that connect the risers to the harness. It's a time consuming and pointless process to cut all the shroud lines if you can just pop the two Capewells and free the canopy from the harness.

Do we know if the folks who found the Amboy canopy did the line cutting perhaps to avoid excavating part of the rig that remained buried? It might be easy to tell as fresh cut lines wouldnt have the exposed cross section area very dirty. If the lines were cut before the canopy was buried, the exposed cross section areas at the cut ends would likely be very dirty.

377

"Brian" at Nick's Tavern in Amboy told Meyer and me that he and his buddies had cut plenty of shroud lines off of the chute when it as still buried. They used them to make fishing sinkers, which I don't understand, but that is what I heard him say.

[Robert99 37]

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Robert,
You would be incorrect on the smokejumper equipment drop. They absolutely dropped/drop cargo. A easy historical example for you to see this would be the Mann Gulch Fire Tragedy.

Propblast, Please take a look at my original post (#42047) in which I stated that equipment WAS dropped to Smoke Jumpers by cargo parachutes.

You can ignore Jo Weber's response above since she thinks Smoke Jumpers operated about like a US Army Airborne Division.

In the WW2 and earlier days, Smoke Jumpers operated in very small groups, sometimes just two jumpers. Of course after they landed, they were fire fighters and if they couldn't handle the fire then more fire fighters would be sent either by parachute, if only a few were need, or by ground, if a large number were needed.

Smoke Jumpers were basically "first responders" whose job was to attack the fire as early as possible in its evolution. For fires that were beyond their ability to control, the "ground troops" were sent in.

But the early Smoke Jumpers basically only had hand tools to fight the fires.

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Personally I don't think smoke jumpers fit Cooper's profile. These guys
were cautious about things, they took risks, but not when it to came
to safety. these guys looked like they were going to a fencing match!
I just can't see one jumping out of a plane over a wooded area with
with plain clothes and loafers.....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 37]

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Quote

Robert,
You would be incorrect on the smokejumper equipment drop. They absolutely dropped/drop cargo. A easy historical example for you to see this would be the Mann Gulch Fire Tragedy.

THANK YOU! JO is no idiot and Jo did do her research in the area. I have played dumb about a lot of things I know, but it is time for me to move on. So much of what you guy go over and over is repetitive.

Please note the post prior to this one. I have finally made my statement - and there will be nothing more said. IF and WHEN the appropriate parties contact me - perhaps someday more about Duane's Webers past will come to the surface.

I THINK it is time to reveal the REST of the STORY, but that is NOT up to ME. I am letting and putting on notice - that I have known this since DAY one and waited for someone to trust me enough to tell me the rest of the story, but it was NOT forthcoming.

Therefore the story of Cooper will never be complete....this individual probably did NOT know Weber was Cooper and may have learned only after the fact.
The Cooper caper had NOTHING to do with the great things this man did and the means by which he accomplished his goals.

Jo, You also need to read my original post on this matter (#42047) since I did state that Smoke Jumpers used small parachutes for dropping fire fighting equipment.

"The Cooper caper had NOTHING to do with the great things this man (Duane Weber?) did and the means by which he accomplished his goals." Are you really talking about Duane? He must have been an extraordinary con man.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

You can ignore Jo Weber's response above since she thinks Smoke Jumpers operated about like a US Army Airborne Division.


Robert99

ROBERT U ARE WRONG! Smokejumpers - did have equipment dropped with a separate chute - AND one was just quoted to U. Mann Gluch.
Perhaps U need to READ the books I have read!

Weber did NOT need to be a smokejumper - but in close association with jumpers and worked in the camps and with the forestry. U let too much trivia get in YOUR way!

I am not a precise poster, but I do recall what I have read. Since this is a MUTE point U need to go back and read a couple of post I made above. Cooper is NOT about Smokejumpers or forestry or espionage or coverts.

U dwelled too much on precise language - U need to look at all of the story.

I have better things to do than look up books and post and recited them to U.

As I tried to say before I am moving on and made some statements that only one person in this thread might even have a clue what the postings tonight are all about!

If U do not read the clarity of my posting tonight then U sir have NOT a clue about this case nor Cooper nor the background of Duane L. Weber - aka Johnnie Collins. Johnnie and that damn peanut jar!

I leave U with a riddle and all of the solutions - U figure them out, but U will probably not get it until the STORY is put right in front of U. Sorry, but I came here with mission tonight and it was not to argue with U or anyone else. Merrily to make statements about what I do know.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

Quote

You can ignore Jo Weber's response above since she thinks Smoke Jumpers operated about like a US Army Airborne Division.


Robert99

Jo writes:

ROBERT U ARE WRONG! Smokejumpers - did have equipment dropped with a separate chute ...

Robert99 replies:

Jo, that is precisely what I said in post #42047. It would be nice if you would read a post before hitting the panic button.

Jo writes:

If U do not read the clarity of my posting tonight then U sir have NOT a clue about this case nor Cooper nor the background of Duane L. Weber - aka Johnnie Collins. Johnnie and that damn peanut jar!

Robert99 replies:

Huh?

Jo writes:

I leave U with a riddle and all of the solutions - U figure them out, but U will probably not get it until the STORY is put right in front of U. Sorry, but I came here with mission tonight and it was not to argue with U or anyone else. Merrily to make statements about what I do know.

Robert99 replies:

Did you accomplish your mission?

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

I communicated with Bruce earlier tonight and told him about the book by David G. Hubbard - THE SKYJACKER
His Flights of FANTASY.
Published in 1971. I have the book and was one of the first book I acquired and I forget who sent me that book.

Since Bruce is doing a pretty good job regarding the past skyjackers I recommended he acquire and read this book.

The book was the result of a study by grant from an individual who did NOT want to be known...and required anonymity for himself.

THis book is a study of early skyjackings prior to 1971. In the book he profiles several (multiple) skyjackers. Hubbard was a DALLAS benefactor who backed Hubbard for the study into the 20 skyjackers. Most of the interviews where conducted within the penal system.

I felt this book would be a reference point for Bruce since he seems engrossed in the prior skyjackers.

P.S. I know who the benefactor was - but NO ONE else does and my lips are sealed. The benefactor was a powerful man and humanitarian. Strangely it could have been the research into this book and Coopers knowledge of the benefactor that motivated him to commit the crime in 1971. How appropriate since the book was published in 1971.

NOTE: Hubbard was a pshychiatrist in Dallas and consultant to the U.S. Public Health Research Center in Fort Worth and to the MEDICAL CENTER for Federal Prisoners in SPRINGFIELD Missouri.

The benefactor also resided in Texas. Duane was in Jefferson 1966 to 1968. Duane knew the benefactor. Can I prove it? DON't even think for one moment that I can! Maybe yes, maybe no.

When I read the book - I had knowledge of some of these little known and remembered individuals ...why? Because someone mentioned a few of them to me over the yrs!

When U guys figure out this puzzle I will be long gone. JO may appear on the surface to be a tease, but she had been told some of the stories and yet until someone gifted her with the book many yrs ago - she was unaware of the connections.

The creator has a strange way of letting those who need to know secrets kept for many yrs. Did Hubbard's book or did the benefactors interest in Skyjacking influence Cooper to make the jump in Nov of 1971?

Riddles - I won't solve this case for you guys - U will have to do that, but like others my secret won't be taken to the grave with me, but they also won't be revealed in this thread.

I leave U with these quotes from the book:

Thus, we create an expensive polic state, based on fllacious assumptions. I t will be tremendously expensive to create, even more so to operate. It will be ineffective, and worse yet, will engender mutaion of the crime, which will sharply increase the overall risk to the airplane public.

But, Congress give these caree employees no choice. They've got to work within the permission they are allowed, even if, in the process, they must like to themselves, their superiors, and the public.

These same congressional attitudes tie the hand of the Department of State, in such a way that diplomacy is rendered impossible.

But you and I are damn fools if we expect a career man to lay that career on the line by telling Congress the truth about itself or its methods. Only a sef-supporting person can safely"stand-up" to speak the fact. (The accuracy of that statement may well be tested in coming months by what happens to my federal conultancies.).

THINK and the ANSWERS will be forthcoming! The book went to press and was on the market by NOV of 1971.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Georger: As I said previously, NO. I don't believe Cossey's explanation that because the Amboy chute (he says) is made out of silk and not nylon...that this is why it can't be Cooper's. Maybe it isn't Cooper's. But that explanation doesn't make sense. Since you support that explanation wholeheartedly, (you've SAID so) I would like to hear why you think Cossey is right. Can't have it both ways. You've said you would believe anything he says over me. Fine. Then WHY do you think he's right in saying the chute is silk when all the available info casts that into serious doubt.

Quote

*Now Entering No Waffling Zone*

[georger 197]

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Quote

The Amboy chute appears to have all the shroud lines cut at a point that is above where the lines attach to the risers (risers are four webbing straps that connect the lines to the harness).

If Cooper jumped with a rig that had Capewell cutaway riser attachments why would he have cut any lines? Capewells are quick release connectors that connect the risers to the harness. It's a time consuming and pointless process to cut all the shroud lines if you can just pop the two Capewells and free the canopy from the harness.

Do we know if the folks who found the Amboy canopy did the line cutting perhaps to avoid excavating part of the rig that remained buried? It might be easy to tell as fresh cut lines wouldnt have the exposed cross section area very dirty. If the lines were cut before the canopy was buried, the exposed cross section areas at the cut ends would likely be very dirty.

377

"Brian" at Nick's Tavern in Amboy told Meyer and me that he and his buddies had cut plenty of shroud lines off of the chute when it as still buried. They used them to make fishing sinkers, which I don't understand, but that is what I heard him say.

Were they cargo fishing sinkers - this is vital

Blevins will ask: I think you are mistaken or lying.
How can you cut anything off a parachute that is
buried?

[skyjack71 0]

Gotcha!

DEAD GIVE AWAY!
My sweet Baboon!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Did you accomplish your mission?

Robert99

Gotcha - didn't I!

Both U and Georger need to rethink JO WEBER....she surprises U once in-a-while!

READ my postings tonight and then DENY it! To most it is riddles, but to those who KNOW it is NO riddle - just the truths presented. ONLY those in the know - KNOW what has transpired! Facts posed in a way only U who know can decipher.

Now I am doing the Weber thinking talking in 3rd person about myself! Whew!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Jo STATED:

THANK YOU! JO is no idiot and Jo did do her research in the area. I have played dumb about a lot of things I know, but it is time for me to move on. So much of what you guy go over and over is repetitive.

Please note the post prior to this one. I have finally made my statement - and there will be nothing more said. IF and WHEN the appropriate parties contact me - perhaps someday more about Duane's Webers past will come to the surface.

I THINK it is time to reveal the REST of the STORY, but that is NOT up to ME. I am letting and putting on notice - that I have known this since DAY one and waited for someone to trust me enough to tell me the rest of the story, but it was NOT forthcoming.

[/RED]Therefore the story of Cooper will never be complete....this individual probably did NOT know Weber was Cooper and may have learned only after the fact.
The Cooper caper had NOTHING to do with the great things this man did and the means by which he accomplished his goals.[RED]

[skyjack71 0]

Below is a repost of my posting the 1st post Robert altered tonight by using quotes but inserting language and word within my post that I did not have in the orginal post below

I hope he understands that to do this is a violation of the forum rules and is punishable by being banned;
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Quote

Robert99 states:

Just exactly who was buying cargo parachutes in February 1945 other than the military?

Jo Replies:

ROBERT! Smoke jumper used cargo chutes to get their equipment to the ground OR to get supplies to the jumpers after they were on the ground - ALL of this is in a smoke jumper book!

I expect this is why someone a while back questioned if there had been any fires in the area of the Amboy find.

ONE of the few things that explains a cargo chute. Could also have been a training drop.


Robert Replies:
Jo, I doubt very much if the Smoke Jumpers needed a parachute that could handle 400 pounds.

Remember that Smoke Jumpers were for jumping into remote areas with minimal equipment in order to fight the fire until more personnel could arrive by land. So Smoke Jumpers at the start of a fire would basically be few in numbers and using only tools that they could carry and use by hand. Of course, those tools were dropped in by small parachutes but they sure didn't weigh 400 pounds.

JO REPLIES!

I have some OLD books that will contradict what you stated above, but right now I am in the middle of something else. Yes, they carried their immediate equipment with them, but they also dropped supplies to the camps. One can only carry so much. Men and Tall Trees is the book I think addresses this or Young Men and Fires (I do not have a copy of this last book, but made some copies of a few of the pages that were of interest to me). I will state CATEGORICALLY and with CONFIDENCE YOU ARE WRONG!

When those jumpers get on the ground they only have so much in rations and food and equipment is dropped. I remember one of the articles about their Dropping Radio Equipment to the crew. I remember this because it was significant to the things I knew about Weber.

Smoke Jumpers and forestry was the very first part of my research and it WAS extensive. This was because of things Duane had told me about people he knew (which it turns out he was talking about himself in 3rd person).

It took me a long time to realize what he had done during the 17 yrs of my marriage to him. He could NOT tell me he was an ex-con, but he sure did talk about ex-cons, crimes and smokejumper and he knew all of the equipment.

How I knew about Spokane - WHAT the FBI never wanted me to know! An old jumper in Spokane by the name of Harris was the key and that name turned up Paperlegs and others he spoke of. WONDER WHY the FBI NEVER acknowledge that Weber had an arrest record in WA prior to 1950!

One story Duane told me and I did NOT get what he was talking about - crates of supplies dropped in to a camp site. This dropping of crates might not have had to do with smokejumpers, but it did have to do with Forestry workers...since it is obvious Weber was NOT stationed overseas during WAR time.

Now if U want we can discuss - covert and soldiers of fortune, but frankly I do NOT like going in that direction - but, THE FBI was the one who caused me to even entertain this, plus Duane talking about 3 training sites during Paperlegs reign with Intermountain Operations out of Canon, Leadville and AZ and a small area North of Ft. Collins.

This may have been Duane's connections to Tony Wong, Tommy Gunn, Paperlegs and P.Harris and perhaps his connection to MOUSE! I now believe I know who Mouse was because that would explain Duane's fascination with a fire in the Western location in the after 88. He told me he knew 2 guys who worked that area and this was the same media event in which he mentioned he was fire training. The time of this was 1962 to 1966 - Duane was known as John (Johnnie) Collins.

This is ALSO the same time era of Ed Horan who I believe to also have been an excon - an escapee!

A guy with xxxxxsssss was also known to hire excons in that time frame - approached me after I enquired of him about Duane's confession and Duane's employment with him. The man made a statement that is NOT puzzling if you want to believe the soldier of fortune or covert stories. "I wasn't proud of all I did". IT was a slip of the tongue in a conversation - but he quickly caught himself when I asked what that was about.

Individuals from the past of Duane seemed to be far and between except those from the era of John (Johnnie) Collins.
Duane was a man without a past to most who knew him other than casually. WHY?

Does it make sense why I drift in and out of the covert / soldier of fortune - even mafia things? Remember that the MAIN man (NOT the man mentioned above) was CONNECTED to many things and polilticians and he arranged a lot of security and he had connection to people in HIGH Places...Political and under the table! That is why he was able to warn of foreboding, but he was ignored. When that happened he did WHAT he could to protect the individual he admired - but those who do NOT want to be protected cannot be protected.

The inevitable then happens, but all of this is just the ACTIVE imagination of a WOMAN who is not suppose to know anything about any of this. She is crazy, Off her rocker and delusional.

It is easier for me to be heard when others think I am making up a bunch of CRAP! Espionage - NO that is NOT the case....but, there were individuals who worked to protect America - and these men were NOT acknowledge as this was NOT a government nor a co-op operation, but a PRIVATE battle a great man waged because of a love for this country. Not sure the government ever sanctioned his means of finding information to help the country he loved....but they know he did provide reliable information when it was needed.

I can now tell this, but I couldn't before - just encase any of U actually care! What I have said above IS all I can state and I have to state - it is ONLY MY OPINION! DO not ask me to prove it! When the time comes perhaps the truths will be known as it stands now there is a man who did many things for his country - but sometime had to scoop down into the underground to obtain information - no one else could.

ONE person posting here just "may" know what I am referring to and I do wish he would contact me. CAN I prove the things I have stated? NO!
Do these things have ANYTHING to do with Cooper? NO!

JUST something I had to say and that maybe someday someone will understand some of these things. THIS man had NOTHING to do with Cooper, but knew who John Collins aka Duane Weber was or the other away around.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Then WHY do you think he's right in saying the chute is silk when all the available info casts that into serious doubt?

Take your time. I'm here all week, as the saying goes.

What "all available information" ?

Oh! You mean that Cossey is a govt certified longtime
expert on parachutes and you are a toilet cleaner
sometime writer ?

Then yes Blevins. I would back Cossey any day over
you.

It's simple. Your claim to having all available
information or even knowing all available
information is false.. therefore, your reference to
all available information is typical Third Reich
exaggeration.

Say hello to Wally the Moose.

I see you and Jo Weber are really on a roll tonight.
You twins don;t even need a full moon!
My guess is you both sleep like rocks without any
conscience too. It's one of those benefits only Wally
Worlders & Shape Shifters get.

You claim to all available information means that
you have accessed all available information,
therefore, you must be FBI! People have questioned
the FBI about it. So far they decline to give a straight
answer@! So you must be Wally World and
not FBI ? Hell Im only guessing here ... but you know
and will tell me!

Play it again Sham Wow.