DB Cooper

[smokin99 0]

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Of course, there has been a LOT of interpretation of Tom Kaye's investigation into the found bills. One source not quoted here, but one you may want to check is pages 255-256 from Gray's book.

Just saying. Let me quote a partial excerpt:

***'Analyzing the evidence, he (Kaye) was able to make one conclusion. Cooper did survive the jump, he thinks. Under the microscope, Tom noticed the money had been bound for so long, the ink of serial numbers on the bills had bled into each other. When he looked at them further, he found that they lined up precisely behind each other in the stack.

Tom did not expect this. When he used his fishing rod to cast a packet of bills into the Columbia River, what happened was clear: The bills fanned out in the water, like the fins of an exotic fish. So if the Cooper bills had floated together loosely in the water, when they dried and stuck together, the serial numbers would not be in perfect alignment. They would be slightly off.

Which means what exactly?

'The money did not float down the river,' Tom says.
So how did it get to Tena Bar?
'Nonnatural means,' he says.
Which means?
'People...If there's one story the money tells us, it's that.'
He does have more information. A new lead he says. He found it by accident, under his microscope....'

The 'new lead' reference almost certainly means the titanium.

I wasn't referencing interpretations, I was referencing an article with Tom Kaye and Tom Kaye's website.

Many accounts of the money find from 1980 state that the "3 packages were bound together" but none say how. Were the three separate packages just stuck together or were they truly "bound" by something. Was there one band around 3 distinct packages or 3 separate bands around 3 separate packages that were each bound to each other?
Was the money wet when found?
If wet, did the Ingrams try to separate it, dry it out, clean it? Would that have any bearing on Kaye's conclusions? I guess not since it wasn't mentioned.

What about the Crystal/Denise Ingram conflicting stories of who found the money - and additional bills turned in later? There were posts associated with this that alleged some of the money was blackened when originally found. Was that determined not to be the case?

One article states that the money "looked like a piece of driftwood" - and had young Ingram offering it up to Dad as firewood before they realized what it was. Another article addresses further searches in the area found fragments and an FBI agent says he found a "fist-size clump of wadded up $20 bills".

The problem with taking the statement you quote at face value is this: It doesn't take into account things that might account for different conclusions. I just think that for all the science there's still a lot of guessing going on.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[georger 197]

The problem with taking the statement you quote at face value is this: It doesn't take into account things that might account for different conclusions. I just think that for all the science there's still a lot of guessing going on.

Im going to be very God damned clear about this!

Blevins is quoting/reading Geoff Grays book. Blevins
has no hard first-hand info about any of this. In this
area anything Blevins says is pure speculation and
bravado, and 12 times out of 3 he literally doesnt
know what he's talking about -

Geoff Gray got a lot of things wrong.

Geoff Gray damned near got his ass sued by Tom
and Tom's team - it came within minutes of
happening.

Geof Gray is NOT a reliable source in this matter.
Geoff Gray was fishing, Tom wouldnt talk to him, I
wouldnt talk to Gray ... and there you have it.

And now for this nitwit Blevins to chime in, based on
Gray who nobody would talk to ? Blevins does not
know ANYTHING! Better you should go out and talk
to a bird in a tree.

. . .

I was goign to answer your questions about
chemistry in your other post. But now I wont.
I am going to wait for a non-Blevins moment
and maybe I will adddress a few things then.
Until then, Im on vacation. So now Bleinvs has the
floor. Later -

[ps: Go back to Tom's page on Rubber Bands.
It's a crucial part of Tom/CS's analysis and his
theoretical speculation. *There isn't one mention
on the whole page about "temperature". Not one
word. Nothing! ....... if there is anything about
rubber bands you need to know in any forensic
analysis it is the "melt phase transition point" of the
bands in question and the temperatures encounter-
ed in the life history of the bands - that is basic
Rubber Band Forensics 101. But not one mention of
temperature(s) in Tom's whole analysis.

I guess he didn't think that was important. Maybe
Blevins can tell us! ]

[Farflung 0]

Mrshutter45 asked:

“after the sand was deposited onto the bar, does anyone know how much and how far they leveled off the sand?”

The ‘sand’ deposit is part of a contract to accept dredging spoils, which is fancy city talk for rocks and shit from the bottom of the river. The Fazio Brothers farm (look at it in Google maps, I said look at it) is also an aggregate sales operation.

Besides Moo-Cows, you will see many, many rigs with double trailers with belly dumps. There is also an assortment of Michigan loaders, bull dozers, front loaders, monkey spankers and Texas Freight Knockers. This along with the iconic tower conveyers and big assed piles of crushed, washed and sorted aggregate which are used in concrete, asphalt, railroad beds and sand boxes, yes children’s sand boxes Mandrake.

So the beachhead would be a cacophony of material being deposited, choreographed with mens and their huge equipments, scooping load after load after…. I feel woozy…. load of material, and transporting it to the sorting yard. Typically the gubberment would require all spoils to be removed in a short span of time (weeks) since they (the g-man) aren’t stupid enough to pay twice to have the same rocks dredged.

Check it out for yourself, there are Fazio-esque operations along the Columbia every ten or twenty miles.

[mrshutter45 21]

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Sure Mrshutter45,

This is the error induced from rounding minutes and DME, versus radar and the usual problems with averaging data points too close together.

T/O to 14 miles south is 6 minutes, or 2.33 miles @ minute, resulting at 140 knots.

NEXT: 19 DME is 9 minutes, or 2.11 miles @ minute, resulting at 126 knots, for a combined average of 133 knots which is from a dead stop to 19 DME south.

Don’t forget to factor in the one plus, nautical mile of altitude which had to be traversed, which equates to a lower ground speed as well.

Thank you for your question.

I'm not following Farf?

the plane kicks the tires and lights the fires at 7:36 and arrives at 14 DME at 7:40:37 4 minutes and 37 seconds they level off at 7000 and "were gonna have er about down to about a hundred and sixty knots"

that's 14 miles in 4:37 correct? then they travel 5 miles in 3 minute arriving at 19 DME?

I have been taking off at 7:36:33 and climbing to 7000 arriving at 7:40:37 applying 30 degree flaps and slowing to 160 all the way to 7:54 after climbing to 10,000 I speed up to about 170/180 arriving at Toledo/Maylay at around 7:59 I gave up trying to match the two transmits from the start of the flight.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 37]

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Don’t forget to factor in the one plus, nautical mile of altitude which had to be traversed, which equates to a lower ground speed as well.

At 7000 feet ASL (which is about 6500 feet above the Seattle VORTAC elevation) and with a DME reading exactly 19.0, the horizontal distance from the Seattle VORTAC is less than 200 feet lower than the 19.0 DME reading. So it (the altitude) is not a factor at all.

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

Mrshutter45,

Don’t let the reports drive your simulations! There are errors a-plenty in time recording and a bunch of un-synchronized equipment from 1971. The macro measurements should resemble your flight profiles just fine.

There is a problem when measuring with a micrometer what will be cut with an ax. Was the plane’s time started at brake release or lift off? Flying standards allow plus or minus two minutes for a reason, just like an airway is 4 miles wide. Your RMI may indicate you as tracking the 175 radial to the gnat’s ass, but between the acceptable tolerances of the instrument in the cockpit, transmitter on the ground, distance between the two, parallax of the pilot and the dog barking in the distance, you will find a couple minutes and miles being impossible to catch and therefore chase.

You are doing the right thing. Pay no attention to the monkey on the computer, your initial numbers will probably prove to be more accurate than anything thus far.

[Robert99 37]

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Sure Mrshutter45,

This is the error induced from rounding minutes and DME, versus radar and the usual problems with averaging data points too close together.

T/O to 14 miles south is 6 minutes, or 2.33 miles @ minute, resulting at 140 knots.

NEXT: 19 DME is 9 minutes, or 2.11 miles @ minute, resulting at 126 knots, for a combined average of 133 knots which is from a dead stop to 19 DME south.

Don’t forget to factor in the one plus, nautical mile of altitude which had to be traversed, which equates to a lower ground speed as well.

Thank you for your question.

I'm not following Farf?

the plane kicks the tires and lights the fires at 7:36 and arrives at 14 DME at 7:40:37 4 minutes and 37 seconds they level off at 7000 and "were gonna have er about down to about a hundred and sixty knots"

that's 14 miles in 4:37 correct? then they travel 5 miles in 3 minute arriving at 19 DME?

I have been taking off at 7:36:33 and climbing to 7000 arriving at 7:40:37 applying 30 degree flaps and slowing to 160 all the way to 7:54 after climbing to 10,000 I speed up to about 170/180 arriving at Toledo/Maylay at around 7:59 I gave up trying to match the two transmits from the start of the flight.

Mrshutter, If at all possible, use the times in the radio transcripts since they include seconds. And those times are accurate.

The 14 DME point is listed in those transcripts but I have just searched for the 19 DME point again and didn't find it. However, the 19 DME reference is in the "FBI Notes".

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

Wow Robert99,

In your world, climb out airspeed and groundspeed are the same. Man, that makes things so much simpler on the old time-distance equations. Those Bug-smashers are marvelous machines to be sure.

[mrshutter45 21]

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Mrshutter45,

Don’t let the reports drive your simulations! There are errors a-plenty in time recording and a bunch of un-synchronized equipment from 1971. The macro measurements should resemble your flight profiles just fine.

There is a problem when measuring with a micrometer what will be cut with an ax. Was the plane’s time started at brake release or lift off? Flying standards allow plus or minus two minutes for a reason, just like an airway is 4 miles wide. Your RMI may indicate you as tracking the 175 radial to the gnat’s ass, but between the acceptable tolerances of the instrument in the cockpit, transmitter on the ground, distance between the two, parallax of the pilot and the dog barking in the distance, you will find a couple minutes and miles being impossible to catch and therefore chase.

You are doing the right thing. Pay no attention to the monkey on the computer, your initial numbers will probably prove to be more accurate than anything thus far.

the flight plans/testing what ever you want to call it is emailed thru Hominid on each test we do, I just fly the plane I don't come close to the knowledge he has.

by the way, I just checked and it takes aprox, 34 seconds to take off, I have been starting the clock at movement.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 37]

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Wow Robert99,

In your world, climb out airspeed and groundspeed are the same. Man, that makes things so much simpler on the old time-distance equations. Those Bug-smashers are marvelous machines to be sure.

"Bug-smashers"? You need to re-read some of your wise cracks from yesterday and then get your memory fixed.

Assuming you weren't exposed to trigonometry in the third grade, the angle of climb for the hijacked airliner was very small. Perhaps you can find an online calculator to help you with the rest.

Climb out airspeed and ground speed the same? That may be routinely true in YOUR world, but in real life it takes an unusual set of circumstances for that to be the case. Among other things, you do know what winds aloft are don't you?

Based on this and some of your earlier posts, I suggest that you get in touch with your navigator and kiss his or her ring and then gift them with something like a case of Johnny Walker Red/White/Blue.

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

Here’s another consideration Mrshutter45,

The DME measure came from a station which resides at the end of Runway 16C. So from brake release, Flight 305 would have begun with a measure of (minus) -1.7 DME.

Not that it will have any major impact, but you and Hominid appear to be taking this to a new level.

[mrshutter45 21]

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Here’s another consideration Mrshutter45,

The DME measure came from a station which resides at the end of Runway 16C. So from brake release, Flight 305 would have begun with a measure of (minus) -1.7 DME.

Not that it will have any major impact, but you and Hominid appear to be taking this to a new level.

yes, it's there on my simulator

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Farflung 0]

Let’s see how all your ‘store bought trig’ works compared to knowing the location of the station, versus the ‘200 foot ambiguity’ gun you jumped when you read DME induced error. Nice one. Tena Bar isn’t getting any closer to your fantasy location because of this.

[georger 197]

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Mrshutter45 asked:

“after the sand was deposited onto the bar, does anyone know how much and how far they leveled off the sand?”

The ‘sand’ deposit is part of a contract to accept dredging spoils, which is fancy city talk for rocks and shit from the bottom of the river. The Fazio Brothers farm (look at it in Google maps, I said look at it) is also an aggregate sales operation.

Besides Moo-Cows, you will see many, many rigs with double trailers with belly dumps. There is also an assortment of Michigan loaders, bull dozers, front loaders, monkey spankers and Texas Freight Knockers. This along with the iconic tower conveyers and big assed piles of crushed, washed and sorted aggregate which are used in concrete, asphalt, railroad beds and sand boxes, yes children’s sand boxes Mandrake.

So the beachhead would be a cacophony of material being deposited, choreographed with mens and their huge equipments, scooping load after load after…. I feel woozy…. load of material, and transporting it to the sorting yard. Typically the gubberment would require all spoils to be removed in a short span of time (weeks) since they (the g-man) aren’t stupid enough to pay twice to have the same rocks dredged.

Check it out for yourself, there are Fazio-esque operations along the Columbia every ten or twenty miles.

The dredging near T_Bar was from August 6 1974
through September 18, 1974. There was no more
dreging at this site from these dates to Feb 1980.

Material dredged was placed in several locations on
or near the Fazio Farm and at one location across
the river on the Oregon side. (Nobody ever talks about that site and if it was explored )

The dredge material deposited at the money
location came from the north half of the channel
between mile markers 96 + 38 feet and marker 97
+ 17 feet. (That area was explored but again nobody talks about that except anecdotally by Tom in one remark on his wewsbite ...)

The material at the money location was deposited
between August 19 and the 25th, 1974.

The material deposited consisted of 91,100 cubic
yards of Columbia bottom material.

The material deposited was spread with tractors over
an area of approximately 50 yards in each direction
from the pipe pile. The Fazios did the spreading with
their tractors.

See the charts on Tom's CS website & USGS photos
Ckret posted at Dropzone.

Lastly, when did the Fazio Sand operation start and
for how long had dredge material been being
desposited on the Fazio propoerty and where? I dont
have any definitive information on this - but Tom
might? Or you could call the last Fazio brother if he
is still around.

[georger 197]

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Georger says, with my replies shown:

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Im going to be very God damned clear about this!

Blevins is quoting/reading Geoff Grays book. Blevins
has no hard first-hand info about any of this. In this
area anything Blevins says is pure speculation and
bravado, and 12 times out of 3 he literally doesnt
know what he's talking about -

Geoff Gray got a lot of things wrong.

Robert replies: So has everyone else involved in exploring the Cooper case. I've forwarded some theories on the money, but I never said I was an expert on it. And I made something else clear...that it was merely a quote from Gray's book. It's obvious you don't like HIM, either? Am I right about this? What did Gray ever do to YOU?

Georger says: Geoff Gray damned near got his ass sued by Tom and Tom's team - it came within minutes of happening.

Robert replies: Why? You have proof of this allegation? I think you are pissed off at Gray because he said this in his book, page 220, which refers to when Kaye, Jerry Thomas, Geoff Gray, and the rest of the CS team (Carol A and Alan Stone) gathered for a little trip to Tena Bar:

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'Noticeably missing from Tom's team is Georger, (real name left out for this post) who had referred him to Larry Carr at the FBI. Before the trip there was a falling out. Tom's issue was confidentiality. After his discovery of silver on the bills, he emailed a copy of his microscopic scan to (Georger), who posted it on the Drop Zone website. Tom felt the leak was a violation of trust. According to Tom, that's why (Georger) chose not to come...'

Georger says: Geof Gray is NOT a reliable source in this matter. Geoff Gray was fishing, Tom wouldnt talk to him, I wouldnt talk to Gray ... and there you have it.

And now for this nitwit Blevins to chime in, based on
Gray who nobody would talk to ? Blevins does not
know ANYTHING! Better you should go out and talk
to a bird in a tree.

Robert says: But you were not there, correct? And all I did was quote a bit from the book. I think you are overreacting again, and that some of this is based on previous events.

GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD -

YOU KNOW NOTHING.

THAT IS OBVIOUS, MR OBVIOUS.

Itwas you not there! And youre still not here!

GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD & STOP TROLLING -

[Farflung 0]

Georger,



http://www.cityofvancouver.us/shorelineupdate/Documents/Letters/General/100319x_Fazio_Brothers_Letter.pdf


Just a general description of their operations and the spoils storage area. I can’t imagine someone contracting to have all that material ‘spread’ around the river bank. The Fazio aggregate operation is much larger than that, is someone misquoting things here? Again??

I really truly and honestly think that ‘hump’ is a deposit fan from the dredge discharge and not from tractors ‘smoothing’ it out. Something isn’t making any sense here.

Where do the Fazio’s get all the material for the storage yard? 91,000 (91 thousand cubic yards) wouldn’t that be a 100 yard square area which is 27 feet tall? Something about this math is not making me happy and I want to be happy. But I’m just a monkey who can’t do math and the CS are a team of many.

Oooo-oooo-EEEEEE-ah-ah-ah

[georger 197]

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No one's 'trolling'. I was merely responding to your rather tasteless post where you call me a 'nitwit'.

As usual, you respond with a pithy remark...typical.

You were the one making the allegation that Kaye and his team were 'minutes from' filing a lawsuit against Geoff Gray, presumably for some things he may have said in Skyjack. YOU said that. I responded with what I believe is your motivation for not liking the guy, and then saying the things you did.
.

Its not an allegation - its a well known fact.

Talk to Tom. You are Tom's fictional associate!

Blevins you are spouting nonsense about things you
obviously know nothing about - why would anyone
do that except to troll?

Who the fuck is Robert M Blevins in all of this !!!!!!
That's what I want to know. Go preach to your cat!

Go play "know-it-all" with one of your neighbors.

What you need Blevins a Ouija Board - go buy one.

[smokin99 0]

Pictures of the Tina Bar area here.....includes a historical one of folks digging. I think Sluggo posted or referenced these in the past...Anyway..not gonna copy just sharing the link if anyone's interested....
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM52N0_Legend_of_D_B_Cooper_Vancouver_Washington

http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=470e386e-d07f-4922-92b7-ac230b74a820

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

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Pictures of the Tina Bar area here.....includes a historical one of folks digging. I think Sluggo posted or referenced these in the past...Anyway..not gonna copy just sharing the link if anyone's interested....
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM52N0_Legend_of_D_B_Cooper_Vancouver_Washington

http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=470e386e-d07f-4922-92b7-ac230b74a820

did ya see this one 99?

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Farflung 0]

So looking at the Citizen Sleuth site created more questions than anything. Here it goes:

1. How did they determine the discovery site if they used trees in a photo which were gone save one that had been felled?

2. The 50 yards of bull dozing sounds more like a conditional limit to keep from pushing too much material back into the river than the certified smoothing zone. Is this mis-read legaleze?

3. There was no more dredging after 1974, or no more dredging from the Corps of Engineers?

4. What is the undulating mass in the photo from 1979 which was not present in 1974?

5. Are materials typically “bulldozed” in aggregate operations or loaded into dump trucks and transported to storage yards?

Now get to work smokin99, or anyone else who digs pain.

[georger 197]

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Pictures of the Tina Bar area here.....includes a historical one of folks digging. I think Sluggo posted or referenced these in the past...Anyway..not gonna copy just sharing the link if anyone's interested....
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM52N0_Legend_of_D_B_Cooper_Vancouver_Washington

http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=470e386e-d07f-4922-92b7-ac230b74a820

did ya see this one 99?

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html

If you go back to the USGS photos Ckret posted and
do some internet searches you can see that the
whole beachfront was undergoing replenishment
from dredging from 1954 on - Farflung acknowledg-
ed this in his post. It is in this context that the Fazio
property became involved, and some time between
1970-1976, the Fazio got into the act taking dredge
material onto the south end of their property (just
above Catapillar Island) and then began processing
sand as a business.

The USGS kept records of everything. They were
able to identify exactly where the '74 deposits to
the Fazio beach front came from. My data I posted
is from the Bechley and another report.

Following the money find, people dragged the area
and divers explored it, where the dredge material
had cpome from on the opposite side of the
river. Tousaw and his teams arrived and explored
the same and relatd areas again ...

There was rather extensive research by geologists
and environmental chemists throughout this whole
area, sometimes on dredge deposits specifically,
out of Portland State, UWash, etc ... thus a number
of profiles to compare Tena Bar chemistry (and the
money sediments) with. Tom chose not to include
information of that kind in his project .... ?

The idea of a CS team arose, in part, due to a
concern (conflict) between the FBI FP and Thomas'
easterly Washougal route, on top of the fact that
Palmer etal had mentioned the Washougal as a
possible source for the Tena Bar money. That theory
was very active among the FBI agents at the time of
the Tena Bar excavation. And the thought was the
Cooper money (and the sediments between bills)
might very well show traces of time spent in the
Washougal environment, prior to a later arrival at
Tena Bar (say in the flood of 1979). Palmer had
commented that he thought the Cooper money was
a 'late arrival' at Tena Bar, and he said his geology
supported that idea ... but no thorough chemistry
had ever been done on the Cooper money (several
agents said) ... which turned out to be not entirely
true. That problem was the central at the time, as
a motivation for having forensics done on the
Cooper money (finally) by somebody, and lead to
the organising of a forensic team ...

At length, we never found anything of an obvious
nature to tie the money to the Washougal area and
its geology/biology. In other words, the money
analysis was being used to try and clarify flight path
and dropzone options. There was no plan to do
anything but evaluate te money in a laboratory
environment, fufilling a task the FBI said had never
been done after the money was found.

So far as I know, Palmer never conducted any
laboratory forensics, especially on the money.

[skyjack71 0]

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Sounds like what SafeCrackingPLF said in his analysis using Occam's Razor -- most probable solution is the simplest, one that introduces the fewest assumptions.
Any accurate information on the dredging would be key.
And again, I come back to the fact that some seem to be ignoring -- how do you explain the pitted, blackened, worn, tattered condition of the Tena Bar bills? Check out 377's 20 -- if he'll let you. If the bills got to Tena's Bar by "unnatural means," ie, someone planted them there, way after the fact, then how did the planter get the bills to look so tattered and worn? Did DBC take the money and chemically "antique" the bills, then later plant a few bundles at Tena's Bar just to throw us all off? Or maybe it was a passerby, at some later time, who found the DBC money bag, after it had been rolling down the River for years, and then planted 3 bundles at Tena's Bar -- just to throw us all off -- just to get a good laugh?
All kiddinh aside, I believe there is a logical explanation, we just haven't found it yet. Any theory that does not explain the tattered condition of the bills is bs, plain and simple. MeyerLouie

I will go back the late afternoon we arrived in The Dalles area. Duane took me into dinner in The Dalles and told me lots of things about river boats and the area. That evening he told me I could Sleep In because he had something he had to do. He set the alarm for 6:30 and left around 7:30 telling me he would be back by check-out time.

Check-out time came and I was frantic. I called the front desk and told them I was worried he had been in a accident or something. The clerk told me not to worry the bill had been paid and the maid was on the other end cleaning - I was going to take my things out to one of the stone picnic tables, but she told me not to. She did contact the highway patrol and they had NO reports of an accident.

Within a 1/2 hour Duane pulled up and put my things in the car.
He was soid and needed a few minutes to clean-up. I called the front desk to let them know he was here and safe - I thanked her for her assistance and she again said the maid was on the other end so if we needed some extra time - no problem.

Duane had a pair blue coveralls he kept in the trunk of the car to put over his clothes in the event he had to change a tire or such.
Duane NEVER allowed me into the trunk of his vehicle. One time I asked him what he kept in that metal file cabinet (before we were married)and now I forgot what he said. That item would remain in the trunk of our car for yrs. When I did see some of the contents it was the OLD income tax records from 1969 to until the yr he married me. Those would only have taken up a small portion of that metal file box, because eventually he did bring them into the house, but I never saw them UNTIL after he DIED! Make out of that what you will - I found it puzzling! I did not know they had been added to our tax report files.

Duane's explanation was he went to see someone he used to know - I wondered why I was not invited. All he told me was (and I did not remember this until this very moment).... xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxx I just deleted this portion, but will add - one does not getting that dirty just moving something for someone. He explained nothing else to me.

Yet when we got near Hood River he told me a few things about that area and he used to know some guy who worked around Mt. Hood. We did not go there, but this is about where we crossed the River and I now know that to be the Bridge of the Gods. Of course JT claimed we stayed on the OR side, but I found everything I had describe to that xxxxxxx when I went out there in 2010 - two yrs ago.

Let you guys fill in the xxx's because what I think of JT just about covers every BAD word I know and then some.

I believe around the Dalles or someplace within a 2 hr drive is where the money may have been buried...from 1971 until 1979. He was gone for 5 hrs plus hours that day in The Dalles.

I have NO ideas where he went or what he did. He would again disappear on the day before we left Seattle for about 5 hrs. I was worried because that was the night of the FAREWELL banquet and the guys told me when I called their room that they had not seen Duane since noon when they broke up the meeting.

They thought perhaps he had gone to a bar and I jumped all over him when he did get to the room and we were past time for the cocktail hour. We did make it down stair before the dinner started.

This is when I took the attached photo - I accused him of drinking and he blew in my face and said I have not had a drink but fix me one while I get cleaned up and changed. I did and as I handed him this drink this is what he did - a jump action and screamed Jeronimo.
I did NOT know that was a jumper terminology and that the stance he took was one a jumper would have made out the door of the plane.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

3. There was no more dredging after 1974, or no more dredging from the Corps of Engineers?

A: Apparently no more sand placed on the beach front - but possibly on the south end of the Fazio property after 1975-76 from other area of the Columbia. I was never able to get a comprehensive list of dates... but by '76 the Fazio's were running a
reclamation project (as equipment there shows)

4. What is the undulating mass in the photo from 1979 which was not present in 1974?

A: Nobody ever explaiend that either ... I asked a
number of people... I wasnt able to connect with the
Fazios directly and I just got busy with other
matters - its a weak excuse.

[Hominid 0]

Quote

At what point are BOTH sites triangulating 305?
Then how far south (beyond PDX?).

I had never checked on where the North Bend station (just N. of Coos Bay) could have tracked the flight, since we've been concerned with N. of PDX. On checking, I see that there are lots and lots of relative low mountains between the station and the flightpath. So, rather than checking for blockage by individual mountains, I used Google Earth to check on coverage of all three stations that would have covered the flight.

The way to do it is to accentuate the terrain by a factor of 4/3, mark the radar site locations, then fly the path at 4/3 of the actual altitude (13,333 ft) while searching for your site markers.

I found that the North Bend site should have been able to track the flight starting at about the area we're mostly concerned with--Merwin to Vancouver. The Hebo site could have tracked along with the North Bend site to about Eugene. In the intervening path, there would be some triangulation--especially for latitudes between the two site. The North Bend site tracking while the flight was up around Vancouver would not have helped much because the azimuths from the two sites would have been close to the same and the angular resolution from the North Bend site would not have been nearly as good as for the Hebo site.

The North Bend site could have tracked south to about Grants Pass. The "Keno" site over by Klamath Falls could have tracked starting at about Myrtle Cr. From there to Grants Pass the flight could have been tracked simultaneously by both sites.

The range capability of the radars would never have been an issue. Given high enough siting and target altitudes, they could track out to 220nm.

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Let’s see how all your ‘store bought trig’ works compared to knowing the location of the station, versus the ‘200 foot ambiguity’ gun you jumped when you read DME induced error. Nice one. Tena Bar isn’t getting any closer to your fantasy location because of this.

Farflung, You are getting to be as bad as Jo Weber in mis-stating things.

If you paid attention, you would remember that I mentioned in a post within the last few days where the Seattle VORTAC station was located. I have also specified the location of the Seattle VORTAC any number of times in posts over the last three years.

"Store bought trig"? I did buy and pay for all of my trig books, as well as all other books, over the years.

Didn't you learn any "trig" at the Academy?

Robert99