DB Cooper

[Farflung 0]

I don’t try to chaff and jam subjects with false claims, or some weird homo-erotic fanboi worship of an employee at a museum, so I’m genuinely looking for some honest validation here.

Georger posted some images of the Cooper money which utterly disproves any notion of the bills being aligned. In fact the images triggered a couple more questions about “tests” which were conducted.

The first image, georger 7, illustrates seven (at least) bills in a pseudo fan arrangement. That eliminates the ‘perfectly aligned’ claim to be sure. But being a mere mortal, who doesn’t know everything, I have to ask how a stack or bundle of money, “buried” in a shallow grave would experience the signs of compression which I may be imagining.

How could these bills be ‘cemented’, stuck or whatever together if they were dropped into a little hole and left behind, after being covered with a little sand? The second misnomer was “bleeding” of the ink. I noticed around the FRB seal some green ink, and some design elements which appear to come from the back of the twenty. Again, I’m just asking, so don’t shit the bed here, but that appears to be a “transfer” and not the result of bleeding. I believe that sort of transfer could be accomplished via pressure, and a great deal of it. Perhaps time and decay would accomplish the same? I don’t know.

Since 377 is the only one with an actual artifact, perhaps he would take a close look for any signs of ink “transfer” on his bill.

I’m curious what some wet currency put under a hydraulic press, at various settings would produce. The same stiff packets which would result in well preserved centers, where the margins are decayed like a 1X3 piece of wood? Nothing? Similar ink transfers? I just don’t know.

[377 21]

Quote

Since 377 is the only one with an actual artifact, perhaps he would take a close look for any signs of ink “transfer” on his bill.

I dont see any ink transfer on my TBT, (Tena Bar Twenty).

Did anyone come up with a good explanation for the holes in the money? Aquatic borer worms or some land animals? It seems to me that the holes might give a clue as to whether they were created on land or underwater and how long the currency resided in that environment.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 37]

Farflung,

A question:

1. IF the salmon fishers scoured the Columbia twice a year for 8+ years from late 1971 onward, and

2. IF the whole Columbia shipping channel had to be re-dredged from Bonneville Dam to some point far downstream (maybe Amazon can pinpoint that) due to the little matter of the Mount St. Helens event, which happened just a few months after the money was found, then

3. WHAT was Tosaw doing looking in the Columbia River depths sometime after the money was found in early 1980?

That would be at least 16 scourings by the salmon fishers plus all the dredging that was required to re-open the river after the Mount St. Helens event (which closed the shipping channel for several months).

Answer: Tosaw was an optimist.

The people at Bonneville Dam have a beautiful exhibit about all the dredging that was done after the Mount St. Helens event.

Also, Amazon's post about the sand in the Columbia and how it is affected by flooding is an extremely important point.

Quite a few decades ago, I spent a couple of years living on a tributary of the Columbia River (actually about 4 miles from the Columbia itself) and the movement of sand on the tributary was plainly evident even to me and my playmates after a high water event.

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

Amazon observed:

“The spoils area on Puget Island just down from my property has almost ZERO rock as a component, its all fine sand. Same goes with the spoils areas on Willow Bar and there along the WA side of the river. The Lower Columbia seems to be a huge sand deposition with that sand being redistributed when high water events come along.”

So this is the dredging version of the ‘Chicken and the Egg’ riddle.

Looking at the cutter head on that dredge betrayed no provision to “filter” sand from the spoils. It appears that I could get the lower half of my body between the tines (?) of that implement. Having an internal device makes little sense as it would do little more than restrict the flow of materials.

Then there is the flow of materials. Hundreds of yards per hour. At 100 yards per hour, assuming sand is 105 lbs per cubic foot, that’s 78 pounds per second of sand flowing through that 24 inch pipe. More than likely, it is much higher than that.

So are the Corps of Engineers contracting areas which are known to be fundamentally sand deposits? Therefore the “filtration” is via serendipity instead of some, in the line, design element which rejects any large objects? A 24 inch pipe is certainly over-kill for sand processing.

What tests have been done with such a device? How much would a canvas bank bag compress? Would that matter? I see there are conveyors and sorting equipment in the Fazio yard, so there must be some clinkers in the spoils.

This too, appears to hinge on ONE report which the FBI infers the dredging as too harsh. I didn’t see one word on the Citizen Sleuths testing or validation, other than to agree with the report. They did conclude with:

“This research did not, however, uncover a better explanation for how the money ended up on Tena Bar.”

[georger 197]

Did anyone come up with a good explanation for the holes in the money? 377

[377 21]

If DBC went in as a no pull I think he would have been missed. A landlord, a postman, a relative, somebody might have connected the dots. There was a TON of publicity right after the event. Everyone was wondering who DBC was. If someone who bore some resemblance to the FBI sketches went missing right after the event, I think it would likely have commanded some attention.

It's pretty hard to just disappear one day and not have inquiries start. Cooper wasnt planning on Norjack being fatal, so I doubt that he would have done all the necessary prep for a clean unnoticed death.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

If DBC went in as a no pull I think he would have been missed. A landlord, a postman, a relative, somebody might have connected the dots. There was a TON of publicity right after the event. Everyone was wondering who DBC was. If someone who bore some resemblance to the FBI sketches went missing right after the event, I think it would likely have commanded some attention.

It's pretty hard to just disappear one day and not have inquiries start. Cooper wasnt planning on Norjack being fatal, so I doubt that he would have done all the necessary prep for a clean unnoticed death.

377

Really! ?

Maybe he had already disappeared. That was the
attractiveness of EVicki's Dad with JT sure he was
he was Franz List or maybe Ed Sullivan.!

Hell I know people who have been gone for 50 years
and never missed. Whole communities of them.
Millions of them! You can see them listed on the
welfare rolls. Phd's driving cabs part time since 1974!

Being missing in America is easy to do. Everything
turned on its head in 1970. America has been run by
the wrong "found people" ever since. Generations
vanished! Poof! Dangling in the wind ...

The real question is: Where have the "found people"
been!

[Farflung 0]

OK, so Cooper lived, that wouldn’t change the process the money took, as it is not dependant on being escorted by Cooper’s corpse. So he could have survived.

But now the model has a parachute which went undetected along with a parachutist. But it could happen. What person are you suggesting is the one which was missed by family, mailmen and landlords?

Did you design equipment at Hughes that had buttons, knobs and blinking lights just in case? Or were those added according to need or customer requirements? Wouldn’t a car with four steering wheels be safer than one with three?

Cooper could have lived, that’s for sure, you just have to add the touch points and requirements to the model to make it work. Is there some data to support this, other than the absence of something?

[Robert99 37]

Quote

If DBC went in as a no pull I think he would have been missed. A landlord, a postman, a relative, somebody might have connected the dots. There was a TON of publicity right after the event. Everyone was wondering who DBC was. If someone who bore some resemblance to the FBI sketches went missing right after the event, I think it would likely have commanded some attention.

It's pretty hard to just disappear one day and not have inquiries start. Cooper wasnt planning on Norjack being fatal, so I doubt that he would have done all the necessary prep for a clean unnoticed death.

377

Would Cooper have hijacked an aircraft from his local airport?

Is there an area near where he apparently wanted to jump that had a relatively high transient population?

Did Cooper have assistants that would not notify the FBI even if they knew Cooper personally?

Questions and more questions.

Robert99

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

If DBC went in as a no pull I think he would have been missed. A landlord, a postman, a relative, somebody might have connected the dots. There was a TON of publicity right after the event. Everyone was wondering who DBC was. If someone who bore some resemblance to the FBI sketches went missing right after the event, I think it would likely have commanded some attention.

It's pretty hard to just disappear one day and not have inquiries start. Cooper wasnt planning on Norjack being fatal, so I doubt that he would have done all the necessary prep for a clean unnoticed death.

377

Would Cooper have hijacked an aircraft from his local airport?

Is there an area near where he apparently wanted to jump that had a relatively high transient population?

Did Cooper have assistants that would not notify the FBI even if they knew Cooper personally?

Questions and more questions.

Robert99

Half the whole population in the west and norwest
was transient - nonexstent.

Dont we know Cooper was a French Canadian
who worked in circuses? I thoutht Tom and Carol
proved that? "Git the show on the road". "American
currency negotiable..."

What we need here is a better paint gun, to slop
some paint on the Cooper case so its a modernist
revisionist piece of monkey art.

Oh! Almost forgot!

Are you done with those C3 tests so we know how
long (how many times) the Ingram money was
exposed to post 1950's nuclear testing air ?
I needed that data - yesterday! Stick the results
in an email and I'll transfer them to Rad Rocz.
Vilniczhovek wants to know too!

[377 21]

Farf wrote

Quote

Cooper could have lived, that’s for sure, you just have to add the touch points and requirements to the model to make it work. Is there some data to support this, other than the absence of something?

Nope, there isnt. I have ZERO evidence that proves Cooper lived.

The canopy was huge though, over 600 sq ft of nylon, which was either white or had multicolored high viz panels. There was about 644 feet of suspension lines too, lot of snag potential Even if the canopy stayed in the pack, the rig is pretty big. Even today they find intact canopies in submerged WW2 aircraft wrecks. If Cooper went in as a no pull, I'd have expected some evidence from his rig to be discovered.

JT thinks the unopened rig is out there somewhere in the Washougal, waiting to be discovered.

Crooks dont discard cash. The presence of thousands at Tena bar suggests to me that Cooper may have gone in as a no pull. Its also possible that he became separated from the money during the jump. That happened to one other skyjacker who survived the jump but landed penniless. That was one honest farmer that turned in the cash loot.

Like I said, the Tena bar money drives me nuts. It puts a constraint on the equation solution that looks so appealing, but in the end it proves nothing about who DBC was or what happened to him.

When the money was originally found I thought BINGO, soon the case will be solved. Boy was I wrong.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

JT thinks the unopened rig is out there somewhere in the Washougal, waiting to be discovered.

377

[georger 197]

How could these bills be ‘cemented’, stuck or whatever together if they were dropped into a little hole and left behind, .

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Farf wrote

Quote

Cooper could have lived, that’s for sure, you just have to add the touch points and requirements to the model to make it work. Is there some data to support this, other than the absence of something?

Nope, there isnt. I have ZERO evidence that proves Cooper lived.

The canopy was huge though, over 600 sq ft of nylon, which was either white or had multicolored high viz panels. There was about 644 feet of suspension lines too, lot of snag potential Even if the canopy stayed in the pack, the rig is pretty big. Even today they find intact canopies in submerged WW2 aircraft wrecks. If Cooper went in as a no pull, I'd have expected some evidence from his rig to be discovered.

JT thinks the unopened rig is out there somewhere in the Washougal, waiting to be discovered.

Crooks dont discard cash. The presence of thousands at Tena bar suggests to me that Cooper may have gone in as a no pull. Its also possible that he became separated from the money during the jump. That happened to one other skyjacker who survived the jump but landed penniless. That was one honest farmer that turned in the cash loot.

Like I said, the Tena bar money drives me nuts. It puts a constraint on the equation solution that looks so appealing, but in the end it proves nothing about who DBC was or what happened to him.

When the money was originally found I thought BINGO, soon the case will be solved. Boy was I wrong.

377

Budda says that if you want to find Cooper and his rig, you have to search where he at, not where you hope he at, or even where you think he at.

The money at Tena Bar is a separate and independent data point. It doesn't indicate who Cooper was but it sure sugggests what happened to him.

Robert99

[Farflung 0]

Those holes in the money look like bug chewings to me, but I can add entomology to the long, long, long list of crap I don’t know.

But I do know that American currency is NOT made of paper but, cotton, linen and silk. That’s right, I took a tour of the Bureau of Engraving, so that makes me an expert and qualifies me to rebuke and denounce any statements I want to.

So I figure that currency would be consumed by critters that like cotton, linen or silk, and leave holes about the same shape and size. See how smart a few hour tour can make you? So here’s an initial guess:

http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/insectid/insect_info.php?363

Perhaps there is a bug-ologist or assistant bug-ologist who can answer this mystery.

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Those holes in the money look like bug chewings to me, but I can add entomology to the long, long, long list of crap I don’t know.

But I do know that American currency is NOT made of paper but, cotton, linen and silk. That’s right, I took a tour of the Bureau of Engraving, so that makes me an expert and qualifies me to rebuke and denounce any statements I want to.

So I figure that currency would be consumed by critters that like cotton, linen or silk, and leave holes about the same shape and size. See how smart a few hour tour can make you? So here’s an initial guess:

http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/insectid/insect_info.php?363

Perhaps there is a bug-ologist or assistant bug-ologist who can answer this mystery.

I'm not a bug-ologist but those critters seem to like air. Do they have any acquatic capabilities? Or even wet (or dry) sand capabilities? If the answer to these questions is no, then it looks like the bugs did their work when the money was exposed to the atmosphere and before it got to its discovery location.

Robert99

[georger 197]

Quote

Those holes in the money look like bug chewings to me, but I can add entomology to the long, long, long list of crap I don’t know.

But I do know that American currency is NOT made of paper but, cotton, linen and silk. That’s right, I took a tour of the Bureau of Engraving, so that makes me an expert and qualifies me to rebuke and denounce any statements I want to.

So I figure that currency would be consumed by critters that like cotton, linen or silk, and leave holes about the same shape and size. See how smart a few hour tour can make you? So here’s an initial guess:

http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/insectid/insect_info.php?363

Perhaps there is a bug-ologist or assistant bug-ologist who can answer this mystery.

Tom says bacteria, but Tom had no facility to do
the dna. Email Tom?

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Those holes in the money look like bug chewings to me, but I can add entomology to the long, long, long list of crap I don’t know.

But I do know that American currency is NOT made of paper but, cotton, linen and silk. That’s right, I took a tour of the Bureau of Engraving, so that makes me an expert and qualifies me to rebuke and denounce any statements I want to.

So I figure that currency would be consumed by critters that like cotton, linen or silk, and leave holes about the same shape and size. See how smart a few hour tour can make you? So here’s an initial guess:

http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/insectid/insect_info.php?363

Perhaps there is a bug-ologist or assistant bug-ologist who can answer this mystery.

I'm not a bug-ologist but those critters seem to like air. Do they have any acquatic capabilities? Or even wet (or dry) sand capabilities? If the answer to these questions is no, then it looks like the bugs did their work when the money was exposed to the atmosphere and before it got to its discovery location.

Robert99

Iwouldnt bet on that. every species has a zone of
habitation - yes? some zones go vertical. These
critters require oxygen - whoever they are. Oxygen
exchange levels vary as a functionof depth, temp.
etc. This aint rocket science!

There are 'vast' catalog of taxonomy of Columbia
shoreline species. Grants make people compete to
make them! One good taxonomist who knows an
area can answer your questions in 30 seconds! That
is no exaggeration. But you have to have some idea
of the questions to ask - that's the researcher's
responsibility. Universities are supposed to teach
people "how to think"!

These guys may shy away from UV. In today's world
you do dna testing to be sure.

[377 21]

G wrote

Quote

Universities are supposed to teach
people "how to think"!

If only they succeeded... sigh.
Sometimes I wonder if thinking is really teachable.

I want to know what ate those holes in my Tena Bar Twenty.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 37]

Quote

G wrote

Quote

Universities are supposed to teach
people "how to think"!

If only they succeeded... sigh.
Sometimes I wonder if thinking is really teachable.

I want to know what ate those holes in my Tena Bar Twenty.

377

377, You are starting with an assumption. What leads you to believe anything "ate" the money to cause those holes?

A better stated question would be, What caused those holes?

Robert99

[Amazon 7]

Quote

G wrote

Quote

Universities are supposed to teach
people "how to think"!

If only they succeeded... sigh.
Sometimes I wonder if thinking is really teachable.

I want to know what ate those holes in my Tena Bar Twenty.

377

http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm26/tm26.htm

[Farflung 0]

It was the best of bills, it was the worst of bills, it was the age of stupidity, it was the age of unimaginable stupidity…..

I know what you’re thinking; what-the-Dickens does that mean?

I was looking at the images of the twenties which georger posted and was surprised at how vast the variance was of the condition. One bill was bug eaten, but looked indistinguishable from what is in my wallet now. The bill labeled ‘Rust’ showed much more wear and represented the opposite end of the spectrum.

Side by side they shared the same ‘insect’ or ‘bacteria?’ damage which indicates that whatever dined on these things, showed little preference for rusty versus clean bills.

Is the ‘Rusty’ bill what it looked like before Cooper got it? Or was the rust stain transferred afterwards? The heavy rust transfer would indicate an environment favoring air over being submerged in water perhaps? The relatively clean bill, presumably from the center of the mass, appears to have avoided any great or obvious water damage. Is this correct? I can almost make out some sort of shape with the rust pattern.

So is this evidence of being out of the water since rust would form and transfer more effectively that way, along with the cleaner bill? Is that the period when the bugs would have chowed down until being evicted by a watery ride to Tena Bar?

Nothing like spending a day realizing how little I know about so much, now I’m depressed.

[377 21]

Quote

377, You are starting with an assumption. What leads you to believe anything "ate" the money to cause those holes?

A better stated question would be, What caused those holes?

Robert99

True! I am reminded that I am not a scientist, just an engineer. We assume starting conditions all the time.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

G wrote

Quote

Universities are supposed to teach
people "how to think"!

If only they succeeded... sigh.
Sometimes I wonder if thinking is really teachable.

I want to know what ate those holes in my Tena Bar Twenty.

377

http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm26/tm26.htm

beautiful!

[georger 197]

Quote

It was the best of bills, it was the worst of bills, it was the age of stupidity, it was the age of unimaginable stupidity…..

I know what you’re thinking; what-the-Dickens does that mean?

I was looking at the images of the twenties which georger posted and was surprised at how vast the variance was of the condition. One bill was bug eaten, but looked indistinguishable from what is in my wallet now. The bill labeled ‘Rust’ showed much more wear and represented the opposite end of the spectrum.

Side by side they shared the same ‘insect’ or ‘bacteria?’ damage which indicates that whatever dined on these things, showed little preference for rusty versus clean bills.

Is the ‘Rusty’ bill what it looked like before Cooper got it? Or was the rust stain transferred afterwards? The heavy rust transfer would indicate an environment favoring air over being submerged in water perhaps? The relatively clean bill, presumably from the center of the mass, appears to have avoided any great or obvious water damage. Is this correct? I can almost make out some sort of shape with the rust pattern.

So is this evidence of being out of the water since rust would form and transfer more effectively that way, along with the cleaner bill? Is that the period when the bugs would have chowed down until being evicted by a watery ride to Tena Bar?

Nothing like spending a day realizing how little I know about so much, now I’m depressed.

dont take rust literally - Tom says its not rust.
I dont know; never saw or handled/tested the bill.
That photo I posted is an old photo from years ago
when someone (Snowmman?) posted the photo,
and I believe it was 377 asked: "Whats that rust?"
People were looking for any sign of the parachute/
chute hardware in associattion with the money find
site. I labeled that photo 'rust' to keep track of that
photo in my files.. that's all. I am sure 377 will recall
and confirm that exchange from years ago here -