mrshutter45 21 #35026 October 27, 2012 Quote Quote I really wish you would stop using me when you are posting to someone else!! Come on. Half the time people re-post and re-quote material on this thread so much it can be tough to figure ownership. This one's yours, right? Besides, I used names in that last post. 'Georger', 'Smith'. Didn't see your name. YES, at the top of the post! where you direct the post too! this is between you and George.....keep it that way "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #35027 October 27, 2012 There’s nothing funny about empty claims of using the stuff…. then getting caught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #35028 October 27, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I really wish you would stop using me when you are posting to someone else!! Come on. Half the time people re-post and re-quote material on this thread so much it can be tough to figure ownership. This one's yours, right? Besides, I used names in that last post. 'Georger', 'Smith'. Didn't see your name. YES, at the top of the post! where you direct the post too! this is between you and George.....keep it that way Correction: Its between Blevins and Blevins! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #35029 October 27, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote I really wish you would stop using me when you are posting to someone else!! Come on. Half the time people re-post and re-quote material on this thread so much it can be tough to figure ownership. This one's yours, right? Besides, I used names in that last post. 'Georger', 'Smith'. Didn't see your name. YES, at the top of the post! where you direct the post too! this is between you and George.....keep it that way His name isn't 'George'. It's Jerry. And half the time no one reads the subject line anyway. Are you an English teacher by any chance? You admittedly have a "THING" for me. Dont start up with Shutter. Pick on Farflung! Get over yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35030 October 27, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote I really wish you would stop using me when you are posting to someone else!! Come on. Half the time people re-post and re-quote material on this thread so much it can be tough to figure ownership. This one's yours, right? Besides, I used names in that last post. 'Georger', 'Smith'. Didn't see your name. YES, at the top of the post! where you direct the post too! this is between you and George.....keep it that way His name isn't 'George'. It's Jerry. And half the time no one reads the subject line anyway. Are you an English teacher by any chance? does it say Jerry on the post "Professor" ??? or on any of his postings? I don't care if his name is Fred! on here it's Georger, if you want to post something to Georger by all means do it, keep Re: mrshutter45 out of it! are we clear! why does it always get to this point with you on every subject??? wasn't talking about the subject line, you directed the post to me."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #35031 October 27, 2012 Quote If you READ the post I made THIS is WHAT IT SAID! PLEASE STOP TWISTING MY WORDS. if YOU are GOING to use MY words PLEASE COPY my post prior to YOUR opinion of what I said. This IS EXACTLY what someone with an AGENDA does to discredit other posters - MAKING that poster sound LIKE a liar. QUOTE: My post below on the subject you TWISTED: "Perhaps - but, he wanted to jump from the aft stairs because he felt that was SAFER! Remember Cooper may have been in association with military pilots - and Weber was WELL AWARE the 727 could be jumped as 377 will tell you. For yrs I told these guys the plane was used during some exercises in the late 60's but NO one believed me until SNOWMMAN found the very clip that Duane was watching when he made the statement. It was a specific thing and was aired during the yrs of 1990 to 1994 because I remembered were he was sitting when the clip was on a TV program. Again - Jo's memory is pretty DAMN good. Bet Snowmman could even find the date the clip was shown in a documentary of TV." The above is what I said. I did NOT say Duane made that statement. JO WEBER: YOU DO SAY THAT DUANE MADE THAT STATEMENT!!! STARTING WITH SNOWMAN'S NAME, ". . . SNOWMAN FOUND THE VERY CLIP THAT DUANE WAS WATCHING WHEN HE MADE THE STATEMENT". THIS WHOLE THING IS IN YOUR QUOTATION ABOVE. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #35032 October 27, 2012 Every time the co-pilots statement comes up - and it is the SAME as he told me on the phone yrs ago - it seems I ask the SAME question EVERY TIME and no one answers it. If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him! NO one - not even the FBI want to reply to this. It is like it is a forbiddent subject. This statement VALIDATES what he told me yrs ago on the phone and I never never forgot it. WHY I have argued and argued with the thread and the book writers about the path of the plane. Georger, explain this to me in a simple language a Dumb Broad will get. According to the projectory of the fight as per the thread - Vancouver would have been slightly left and as the plane crossed the Columbia so would Portland. NOW you explain his statement about seeing the light to the right? NOT possible and the co-pilot also said more to me - WHY I have ARGUED till I am argued regarding the Flight Path the FBI adopted AFTER the 1980 money find was ALTERED to explain the money find and MAKE COOPER just go away. SO the FBI and others just ignore what the co-pilot has said for yrs and yrs. He was MISS Quoted by the media at a retirement party for - Mr. H. That statement is different if I remember correctly. He is on the RIGHT side of the Plane and HE sees to his right WHAT he thought was Vancouver and Portland. THIS makes NO sense and why NO ONE wants the co-pilot to talk to the media. He was stating ALL OF THIS BEFORE HIS ACCIDENT so NO one can ACCUSE him of being CONFUSED. I have heard that arguement of one particular individual - need NOT aske who. NOT one of the super sleuths will even address this - I went over and over it with Sluggo - and he just would not listen. NO one will listen. OK Mrshutter you have the simulated flight! HOW can you make the CO-pilot who was SITTING in the Co-Pilots SEAT which is one the RIGHT Front side of the plane be able to see the what he thought was Vancouver and Portland to his right. With the Flight pattern as this thread and the FBI have proposed AFTER the money find - this is just NOT possible - at least not with my non pilot dumb woman sydrome. You pilot the plane from the Left side just like you do a car. The Co-pilot sits on the RIGHT. THEY DO NOT CHANGE SEATS! Rat NEVERS SAYS in front of him or to his left - IT has always been to the right. There was a continuation of our conversation beyond that point but the thread told me I didn't knwo what I was talking about. It does NOT take a pilot or a genius to figure this out. THE FBI wants Cooper to GO away and the flight path is the propaganda they have promoted for several yrs now. The map used after 1980 and this thread IGNORE what the pilot has said for yrs. and yrs. and yrs.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35033 October 27, 2012 Back to Cooper: Quote Getting back to Cooper > if R sees lights on his right he's east of V23, as per Jo ? if as Ckret said: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' then they are conceivably right on V23 headed straight to PDX ?? Thats one discrepancy between the two reports: Interviewer vs. Ckret. I forget if Ckret called and talked to Rataczak? (this thing has become jumbled in my mind). ????????????? If he's west of V27 then what? No interview makes sense, ie fits? Let me throw one more thing out- Farflung referred to construction on Hayden Island. Bet he thinks we all forgot that. Nohhhhh! If 305 crosses near Hayden Island, then is Farflung happy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35034 October 27, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I really wish you would stop using me when you are posting to someone else!! Come on. Half the time people re-post and re-quote material on this thread so much it can be tough to figure ownership. This one's yours, right? Besides, I used names in that last post. 'Georger', 'Smith'. Didn't see your name. YES, at the top of the post! where you direct the post too! this is between you and George.....keep it that way You admittedly have a "THING" for me. Dont start up with Shutter. Pick on Farflung! Get over yourself. Thing for you? Don't make me laugh. If you continue on that track, I will post up your 'Top 25 Insults and Name-Calls.' I got nothing against Shutter. He goes ballistic over a subject line. As if no one here has ever reposted a subject line with a different subject...Farflung? I got no problem with him. At least he has a sense of humor. Hey Dude! We are busy with the subject of this thread. Solve your own problems for a change. STOP INTERUPTING! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35035 October 27, 2012 "ballistic" I simple asked you to stop posting to me, in the upper left side of every post you will see this...Re: {insert name} this tells you who you are posting too correct? that's what I asked you to do correct? I didn't mention anything about the subject line correct? putting a mean face on a sentence validates "ballistic" ???? JUDGES??????"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35036 October 27, 2012 "If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him!" if he seen lights of Vancouver or Portland sitting on the right side of the plane looking right he wouldn't be west of these two?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #35037 October 27, 2012 QuoteBack to Cooper: Quote Getting back to Cooper > if R sees lights on his right he's east of V23, as per Jo ? if as Ckret said: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' then they are conceivably right on V23 headed straight to PDX ?? Thats one discrepancy between the two reports: Interviewer vs. Ckret. I forget if Ckret called and talked to Rataczak? (this thing has become jumbled in my mind). ????????????? If he's west of V27 then what? No interview makes sense, ie fits? I believe all of that happened when R (I like that better than Rat) had his accident if My memory is correct. R was not communicating to well for some time after that - which is understandable - pain drugs mess with your mind. My conversations with him were before and AFTER his accident. The one after the accident was not as sharp as the one yrs before that. The last conversation he had a lot going on but we had a decent conversation - I just did NOT press because I understood the situation regarding his health and his wife's health 1st hand. I have left it up to him to reconnect when he is ready - because the conversation was left at "WE need to do something about this". I had contacted him regarding all of the crap going on with Tina after Bruce and Galen pounced on her....and I felt responsible for them finding her. He then asked me to put him in touch with Tina - which I did. I have done all I can do except the WA history and the Family history regarding CA and WA. THIS is being done and they are my last hurtles - then I put it infront of the PUBLIC....LOUD and CLEAR. It will sound like an OLD BOEING is coming down on your house! So close you will feel the vibrations. Will U be on Board or sitting in the middle of the woods trying to keep warm looking for Cooper's booty. It is TIME to put a stop to ALL of thisCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35038 October 27, 2012 Will U be on Board or sitting in the middle of the woods trying to keep warm looking for Cooper's booty. It is TIME to put a stop to ALL of this Are you asking liddle ole ME ? Me on board or sitting in the middle ... trying to keep warm ... looking for Cooper's booty/bones ??? Yes dear. I did post saying there is activity at the ole Bar. I have no current planes to go up there. Ok? Are you going there? And who in hell told you!? Or did you guess? [Im betting youcalled someone right? Confess it!] Please answer Shutters post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35039 October 27, 2012 I believe the path just might be right as well, but nobody has tried flying it the way we are doing it, Tom backs us 100% on what we are doing so as I mentioned before, if it's right we will have documentation along with the hard work by others flying the path on paper. (calculations)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35040 October 27, 2012 Georger, I’m such a simplistic animal when it comes to work and play. I’m motivated by my laziness and greed whenever I design a process or product. Simply put; fewer touch-points, mean less cost and lower probability of failure. UNTIL (until that is) something comes along which causes a material change to the less complex, less expensive and therefore more likely solution; many potential solutions can exist until the dependent variables are measured. This of course has been buttseksed off this thread with poorly hidden agendas, egos and the usual bevy of insecurities which make Olive Garden Restaurants stay in business. The simplest way to get anything from a plane traveling V-23, to Tena Bar would involve a drop in the Columbia River. One step and passive velocity, what could be simpler? All I’ve read is obscenely complex solutions which would be obvious if any of the professionals would invest the time to craft a process dialog (step by step) of how ‘their’ solution works. I would imagine they would be surprised at the voluminous amount of dependencies they would create and the vast number of timing elements which would transpire. That does not mean that it happened that way, and RobertMBlevins will have to remove his puckered lips from Tom Kaye’s starfish, it simply means it is the most simplistic solution as a starting point. RobertMBlevins licking some butthole at a museum will not change that equation any more than the ridiculous list of other reasons why some else’s theory is more gooder better. The fact that the very suggestion of dredging was shot down with such violence and bitterness, only indicated what a sorry crew of insecure underachievers were willing to sacrifice their credibility, for some little point. The Port of Portland told me they used all forms of dredging techniques and asked the rhetorical “How exactly would one remove a 24 inch obstacle with a 20 inch suction dredge?” That was the point I dropped the subject. I do get embarrassed. If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #35041 October 27, 2012 Quote"If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him!" if he seen lights of Vancouver or Portland sitting on the right side of the plane looking right he wouldn't be west of these two? OH, I missed this until I got to Georger's post after fooling around a little. I think that is WHAT I said? The co-pilot sits on the right side of the plane - if he is looking out his window to the right and sees Vancouver or Portland - HE cannot be crossing the Columbia at Tena's bar. Does that help. R has ALWAYS said right and NOT dead on - now at a party for Mr. H after a few drinks (someone quoted him regarding a similar statement), but I do not recall what the party claimed. Maybe that was the Pilot at the party and not the co-pilot. Right is what led to the rest of the conversation I had with R. We talked about a hwy and a couple of other places on the EAST side of Vancouver and Portland - but, everyone else told me I was a fruit cake - everyone but R and originally Mr. H, but then Mr H. changed his story later on.... Those early days of my search were very hectic so I don't remember who said what.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35042 October 27, 2012 QuoteGeorger, I’m such a simplistic animal when it comes to work and play. I’m motivated by my laziness and greed whenever I design a process or product. Simply put; fewer touch-points, mean less cost and lower probability of failure. UNTIL (until that is) something comes along which causes a material change to the less complex, less expensive and therefore more likely solution; many potential solutions can exist until the dependent variables are measured. This of course has been buttseksed off this thread with poorly hidden agendas, egos and the usual bevy of insecurities which make Olive Garden Restaurants stay in business. The simplest way to get anything from a plane traveling V-23, to Tena Bar would involve a drop in the Columbia River. One step and passive velocity, what could be simpler? All I’ve read is obscenely complex solutions which would be obvious if any of the professionals would invest the time to craft a process dialog (step by step) of how ‘their’ solution works. I would imagine they would be surprised at the voluminous amount of dependencies they would create and the vast number of timing elements which would transpire. That does not mean that it happened that way, and RobertMBlevins will have to remove his puckered lips from Tom Kaye’s starfish, it simply means it is the most simplistic solution as a starting point. RobertMBlevins licking some butthole at a museum will not change that equation any more than the ridiculous list of other reasons why some else’s theory is more gooder better. The fact that the very suggestion of dredging was shot down with such violence and bitterness, only indicated what a sorry crew of insecure underachievers were willing to sacrifice their credibility, for some little point. The Port of Portland told me they used all forms of dredging techniques and asked the rhetorical “How exactly would one remove a 24 inch obstacle with a 20 inch suction dredge?” That was the point I dropped the subject. I do get embarrassed. If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35043 October 27, 2012 Georger states: “Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months.” That’s the beginning of many unknowns which would be good to have cataloged, but is typically decimated by the rogues gallery once they sense something may not lead to their preselected answer. Tena Bar is a site of massive material processing. There are hundreds of thousands of yards of material, which share some homogeneity by virtue of being mechanically processed within a dozen miles. How much variation exists in that band (I don’t know)? Is it significant? Has it been mapped? Second variable is the former Tomahawk Island, which is directly under V-23 and had 40% of the landmass removed, for the construction of four marinas, between 1970 and 1985. This excavation had nothing to do with the Corps of Engineers since it wasn’t about maintaining navigability and the schedule of material transport is an unknown (to me). I checked with the historical society but had little luck regarding the rabid construction projects. So the dredge ‘Slot Machine’ has three reels (at least) of probability. Spoil deposits to Tena Bar, ephemeral deposit by dropping off a Tomahawk Island barge (falling off the boat) or any other number of activities which dislodge or directly transport the bundle (erosion, serendipity). Either way, there was an enormous amount of materials being moved from 1970 -1985, with construction and the expansion (not just maintenance) of the navigable waterway. Tena Bar being downstream (DOWN-frapping-STREAM) from V-23 makes passive transport, a zero sum gain, since it could have been moved through other means. A minimum (minimum) protocol for the money should have included being in a bag, attached to a body/rig, being compressed under heavy equipment wheels, under several masses of material and in loose formats. The study with a single bundle is weak, anemic and so unbalanced as to be virtually worthless (save the single bundle theory). There are many, many, many reasonable unknowns to remove before engaging in some of the brain dead leaps of logic. How someone could even entertain arriving at some macro conclusion is pure folly. Of course, I make NO claim of any knowledge to any of the scant uncharted conditions listed. I do know, how very little, I do know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #35044 October 27, 2012 QuoteFarflung writes: If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Georger writes: Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35045 October 27, 2012 Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise: Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23. Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River. End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.” This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No? If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it. If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points? You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point. How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same. Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35046 October 27, 2012 QuoteQuoteFarflung writes: If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Georger writes: Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99 Beautiful. I will reply to Farflung tomorrow. I have things yet to finish tonight and a ball game at 11:00 tomorrow. Nice post! I think you got the 'drift' of what was trying to say. Spoils placed 'over' something already in place would tend to lock it in until such time as erosion exposes it again, and there are ways to test that thesis. That's one scenario. Had something arrived at TBar early and not been covered over, then it might erode out rather quickly with any flood event. Its a matter of selecting between the options - based on evidence 'which applies to that problem'. One usual route is to look at chemistries, including chemistries of dredge spoils in particular. And Far is dead on. There was a lot of research on dredge spoils including at Tena Bar, before 1980. More to come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #35047 October 27, 2012 I do NOT know where you guys are going with this, but I know that a packet of packets of money were buried across from the PDK and just West of there. There were house built there later - There was a railroad track. Duane parked the car and told me to stay in the car. He went down a steep incline after opening the trunk of the car. He was there for some time. I is my theory he buried some of the money along the bank at that point. Then we get into the car and go to another area West of the highway - that was Tena's bar. Besides the tree and the house there was a shed - again he told me to stay in the car and he would be right back. Then we go to the Red Lion and this is when he throws a paper bag in to the water and whatched it going down stream that would have been in the direction of Tena's bar. He had already thrown something into water at the bridge that goes over to the OR side - He told me it was a candy wrapper. Three location he threw money or something into the river. One he buried because he had a shovel. I do not remember if he carried the shovel to Tena's bar, I though he went to the shed under the trees. When the FBI took me there - the shed was not there, but the guy said there used to be a shed there. I have no idea what you guys are trying to do other than to say it was part of the spoils - it wasn't it was all planted. It was damaged and not spendable. After we crossed the river to Portland and drove along the river he points out home basically built on the water and the we go as far as where the bridge was over on the WA side, but we are on the Or. side. He mentions a marina on that other side and a boat stolen and the let the boat loose right infront of the PDX. He had a smile on his face as he said that. There was mention of man who lived in one of the house that were built out on the water. I though what a great idea. I don't want to forget the green Tank on the WA side that we stood and talked about, but he didn't put anything in the water at that time. This big Tank was green and it was on a platform for floating it on the river - I suppose to move fuel of a place for fuel to be delivered for storage for the boat or equipment used on the river. I had gotten read for bed and went out side to do the Dirty (I smoke when I am ponder something and need to keep down. It is a private thing I do. The weather to night is great and I could NOt GET my mind of of the thing Duane did in a short period of time. What he did or why I do not know. but that was in Sept of 1999 and the money if found in Feb of March and then DUANE buys 2 new cars and leaves me in Co while he goes east - after H takes some thing to Omaho and puts them in a safedeposit box. None of this is scienctific, but my memories of the man who did do some strange things on that trip. WHY! Who was Stanley and who was Mattie Fillingham - what did the have to do with this. She was related to the Fargurers who had the airstrip near amboy. Why did Duane points this out to me. Oh Well no one cars No on give a Damn - but out side to night I could smell something going on. Duane worked on Government Island - but you know this already Well, I have one more little cigar left and I am going to smoke it before I die. It is amost 5 AM here.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #35048 October 27, 2012 Robert Blevins said: Quote Make fun of this if you wish, but it's hard to explain how MORE THAN ONE BUNDLE of the cash ended up buried together in the condition it was found. Three bundles together (approximate amount) is much harder to explain using dredging or washdown, especially above the water line. Part of Kaye's conclusions were based on the published FBI flight path being inconsistent with money ending up on T. Bar. So putting that aside...... why is it hard to imagine the money staying together under Farflung's scenario? What I think he is suggesting is that one natural way for the 3 bundles of money to stay together is that they were wet compressed/compacted - in or out of a bag - for a period of time before whatever mechanical or natural means brought them to their final resting place. Many of Kaye's conclusions (bundles coming apart, rubber bands degrading, assume that the money bundles were being stressed by moving constantly in the water for several + years. Even if the bundles got to T bar by dredging or flood, it doesn't seem likely that they just floated around wily nily for years. BTW...Kayes team chunked some banded bills in the river - and, because they found a bundle without the rubber band, they assumed that it degraded. Tell that to the walleye that thought he was about to feast on a worm. Plus the rubber band analysis fails to report the size and length of the rubber used in the underwater experiments AND we don't know the size or degree of stretch used on hijacked money. Small points maybe and I'm not saying that Kaye's stuff is irrelevant at all - a lot of it makes sense, and in a case like this I guess one is forced to make assumptions, Just saying that they made a lot of assumptions. Just saying...for a person that "QUESTIONs EVERYTHING", you don't seem to question a whole hell of a lot. One other point - I appreciate Kaye's work on the Cooper stuff. Some points, I think, are valid, some, I think, are just conjectures based on random probability. However, as he himself attests, none of it was done in a vacuum. Read the footnotes. He relied on a lot of previous work - some by past and present posters to this thread. To quote Farflung: Quote A minimum (minimum) protocol for the money should have included being in a bag, attached to a body/rig, being compressed under heavy equipment wheels, under several masses of material and in loose formats. The study with a single bundle is weak, anemic and so unbalanced as to be virtually worthless (save the single bundle theory). There are many, many, many reasonable unknowns to remove before engaging in some of the brain dead leaps of logic. How someone could even entertain arriving at some macro conclusion is pure folly. Of course, I make NO claim of any knowledge to any of the scant uncharted conditions listed. I do know, how very little, I do know. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #35049 October 27, 2012 Jo wroteQuote... I know that a packet of packets of money were buried across from the PDK and just West of there. There were house built there later - There was a railroad track. Jo, How do you know it was a packet of money? If Duane wanted to dispose of unusable or incriminating currency, why trek to the NW and risk observation and possible arrest? He had a lot of experience in getting caught and I assume he'd learn something from that. I just don't buy the "plant portions of the loot to make it look like Cooper died" stories. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35050 October 27, 2012 "I have one thought for the flight sim process, though. Those sim maps are probably based on recent sat photos or whatever they use to create them. In other words, the ground lights and buildings shown may not be completely accurate, since the hijacking was 40+ years ago and many of the areas over the flight path have been developed much further (civilization inroads) since that time. Clearcuts where once was heavy forest, housing developments where once was nothing, etc. This especially applies to areas around Battleground and Vancouver, and less so further north nearer the Merwin Lake Dam." you are correct to some degree, the system has a date calendar on it, but, does not change the surroundings, 99% of the roads are on the sim, I'm not worried whether K-mart is there or not, the navigation speed and altitude are things that need to be correct. most of the city placements are very accurate and buildings in between are not, rivers lakes even golf courses are correct, the main goal is the flight in general. as for the lights, well they are a lot brighter on this end, not that they are 100% accurate, but they give a good idea of where you are in flight, I can see Vancouver and Portland from Lake Mewin easily (no cloud cover) the navigation system (not scenery) are very accurate with distance, altitude and coordinate's only showing a difference of up to about 200 feet on other maps. the software and add ons alone take up lots of space on my computer, I couldn't imagine how large the program would be if it changed the scenery with each year. I have a dedicated computer just for this system to function with little issues. still have some kinks to correct "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 Next Page 1402 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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skyjack71 0 #35032 October 27, 2012 Every time the co-pilots statement comes up - and it is the SAME as he told me on the phone yrs ago - it seems I ask the SAME question EVERY TIME and no one answers it. If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him! NO one - not even the FBI want to reply to this. It is like it is a forbiddent subject. This statement VALIDATES what he told me yrs ago on the phone and I never never forgot it. WHY I have argued and argued with the thread and the book writers about the path of the plane. Georger, explain this to me in a simple language a Dumb Broad will get. According to the projectory of the fight as per the thread - Vancouver would have been slightly left and as the plane crossed the Columbia so would Portland. NOW you explain his statement about seeing the light to the right? NOT possible and the co-pilot also said more to me - WHY I have ARGUED till I am argued regarding the Flight Path the FBI adopted AFTER the 1980 money find was ALTERED to explain the money find and MAKE COOPER just go away. SO the FBI and others just ignore what the co-pilot has said for yrs and yrs. He was MISS Quoted by the media at a retirement party for - Mr. H. That statement is different if I remember correctly. He is on the RIGHT side of the Plane and HE sees to his right WHAT he thought was Vancouver and Portland. THIS makes NO sense and why NO ONE wants the co-pilot to talk to the media. He was stating ALL OF THIS BEFORE HIS ACCIDENT so NO one can ACCUSE him of being CONFUSED. I have heard that arguement of one particular individual - need NOT aske who. NOT one of the super sleuths will even address this - I went over and over it with Sluggo - and he just would not listen. NO one will listen. OK Mrshutter you have the simulated flight! HOW can you make the CO-pilot who was SITTING in the Co-Pilots SEAT which is one the RIGHT Front side of the plane be able to see the what he thought was Vancouver and Portland to his right. With the Flight pattern as this thread and the FBI have proposed AFTER the money find - this is just NOT possible - at least not with my non pilot dumb woman sydrome. You pilot the plane from the Left side just like you do a car. The Co-pilot sits on the RIGHT. THEY DO NOT CHANGE SEATS! Rat NEVERS SAYS in front of him or to his left - IT has always been to the right. There was a continuation of our conversation beyond that point but the thread told me I didn't knwo what I was talking about. It does NOT take a pilot or a genius to figure this out. THE FBI wants Cooper to GO away and the flight path is the propaganda they have promoted for several yrs now. The map used after 1980 and this thread IGNORE what the pilot has said for yrs. and yrs. and yrs.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #35033 October 27, 2012 Back to Cooper: Quote Getting back to Cooper > if R sees lights on his right he's east of V23, as per Jo ? if as Ckret said: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' then they are conceivably right on V23 headed straight to PDX ?? Thats one discrepancy between the two reports: Interviewer vs. Ckret. I forget if Ckret called and talked to Rataczak? (this thing has become jumbled in my mind). ????????????? If he's west of V27 then what? No interview makes sense, ie fits? Let me throw one more thing out- Farflung referred to construction on Hayden Island. Bet he thinks we all forgot that. Nohhhhh! If 305 crosses near Hayden Island, then is Farflung happy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #35034 October 27, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I really wish you would stop using me when you are posting to someone else!! Come on. Half the time people re-post and re-quote material on this thread so much it can be tough to figure ownership. This one's yours, right? Besides, I used names in that last post. 'Georger', 'Smith'. Didn't see your name. YES, at the top of the post! where you direct the post too! this is between you and George.....keep it that way You admittedly have a "THING" for me. Dont start up with Shutter. Pick on Farflung! Get over yourself. Thing for you? Don't make me laugh. If you continue on that track, I will post up your 'Top 25 Insults and Name-Calls.' I got nothing against Shutter. He goes ballistic over a subject line. As if no one here has ever reposted a subject line with a different subject...Farflung? I got no problem with him. At least he has a sense of humor. Hey Dude! We are busy with the subject of this thread. Solve your own problems for a change. STOP INTERUPTING! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35035 October 27, 2012 "ballistic" I simple asked you to stop posting to me, in the upper left side of every post you will see this...Re: {insert name} this tells you who you are posting too correct? that's what I asked you to do correct? I didn't mention anything about the subject line correct? putting a mean face on a sentence validates "ballistic" ???? JUDGES??????"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35036 October 27, 2012 "If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him!" if he seen lights of Vancouver or Portland sitting on the right side of the plane looking right he wouldn't be west of these two?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #35037 October 27, 2012 QuoteBack to Cooper: Quote Getting back to Cooper > if R sees lights on his right he's east of V23, as per Jo ? if as Ckret said: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' then they are conceivably right on V23 headed straight to PDX ?? Thats one discrepancy between the two reports: Interviewer vs. Ckret. I forget if Ckret called and talked to Rataczak? (this thing has become jumbled in my mind). ????????????? If he's west of V27 then what? No interview makes sense, ie fits? I believe all of that happened when R (I like that better than Rat) had his accident if My memory is correct. R was not communicating to well for some time after that - which is understandable - pain drugs mess with your mind. My conversations with him were before and AFTER his accident. The one after the accident was not as sharp as the one yrs before that. The last conversation he had a lot going on but we had a decent conversation - I just did NOT press because I understood the situation regarding his health and his wife's health 1st hand. I have left it up to him to reconnect when he is ready - because the conversation was left at "WE need to do something about this". I had contacted him regarding all of the crap going on with Tina after Bruce and Galen pounced on her....and I felt responsible for them finding her. He then asked me to put him in touch with Tina - which I did. I have done all I can do except the WA history and the Family history regarding CA and WA. THIS is being done and they are my last hurtles - then I put it infront of the PUBLIC....LOUD and CLEAR. It will sound like an OLD BOEING is coming down on your house! So close you will feel the vibrations. Will U be on Board or sitting in the middle of the woods trying to keep warm looking for Cooper's booty. It is TIME to put a stop to ALL of thisCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35038 October 27, 2012 Will U be on Board or sitting in the middle of the woods trying to keep warm looking for Cooper's booty. It is TIME to put a stop to ALL of this Are you asking liddle ole ME ? Me on board or sitting in the middle ... trying to keep warm ... looking for Cooper's booty/bones ??? Yes dear. I did post saying there is activity at the ole Bar. I have no current planes to go up there. Ok? Are you going there? And who in hell told you!? Or did you guess? [Im betting youcalled someone right? Confess it!] Please answer Shutters post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35039 October 27, 2012 I believe the path just might be right as well, but nobody has tried flying it the way we are doing it, Tom backs us 100% on what we are doing so as I mentioned before, if it's right we will have documentation along with the hard work by others flying the path on paper. (calculations)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35040 October 27, 2012 Georger, I’m such a simplistic animal when it comes to work and play. I’m motivated by my laziness and greed whenever I design a process or product. Simply put; fewer touch-points, mean less cost and lower probability of failure. UNTIL (until that is) something comes along which causes a material change to the less complex, less expensive and therefore more likely solution; many potential solutions can exist until the dependent variables are measured. This of course has been buttseksed off this thread with poorly hidden agendas, egos and the usual bevy of insecurities which make Olive Garden Restaurants stay in business. The simplest way to get anything from a plane traveling V-23, to Tena Bar would involve a drop in the Columbia River. One step and passive velocity, what could be simpler? All I’ve read is obscenely complex solutions which would be obvious if any of the professionals would invest the time to craft a process dialog (step by step) of how ‘their’ solution works. I would imagine they would be surprised at the voluminous amount of dependencies they would create and the vast number of timing elements which would transpire. That does not mean that it happened that way, and RobertMBlevins will have to remove his puckered lips from Tom Kaye’s starfish, it simply means it is the most simplistic solution as a starting point. RobertMBlevins licking some butthole at a museum will not change that equation any more than the ridiculous list of other reasons why some else’s theory is more gooder better. The fact that the very suggestion of dredging was shot down with such violence and bitterness, only indicated what a sorry crew of insecure underachievers were willing to sacrifice their credibility, for some little point. The Port of Portland told me they used all forms of dredging techniques and asked the rhetorical “How exactly would one remove a 24 inch obstacle with a 20 inch suction dredge?” That was the point I dropped the subject. I do get embarrassed. If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #35041 October 27, 2012 Quote"If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him!" if he seen lights of Vancouver or Portland sitting on the right side of the plane looking right he wouldn't be west of these two? OH, I missed this until I got to Georger's post after fooling around a little. I think that is WHAT I said? The co-pilot sits on the right side of the plane - if he is looking out his window to the right and sees Vancouver or Portland - HE cannot be crossing the Columbia at Tena's bar. Does that help. R has ALWAYS said right and NOT dead on - now at a party for Mr. H after a few drinks (someone quoted him regarding a similar statement), but I do not recall what the party claimed. Maybe that was the Pilot at the party and not the co-pilot. Right is what led to the rest of the conversation I had with R. We talked about a hwy and a couple of other places on the EAST side of Vancouver and Portland - but, everyone else told me I was a fruit cake - everyone but R and originally Mr. H, but then Mr H. changed his story later on.... Those early days of my search were very hectic so I don't remember who said what.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35042 October 27, 2012 QuoteGeorger, I’m such a simplistic animal when it comes to work and play. I’m motivated by my laziness and greed whenever I design a process or product. Simply put; fewer touch-points, mean less cost and lower probability of failure. UNTIL (until that is) something comes along which causes a material change to the less complex, less expensive and therefore more likely solution; many potential solutions can exist until the dependent variables are measured. This of course has been buttseksed off this thread with poorly hidden agendas, egos and the usual bevy of insecurities which make Olive Garden Restaurants stay in business. The simplest way to get anything from a plane traveling V-23, to Tena Bar would involve a drop in the Columbia River. One step and passive velocity, what could be simpler? All I’ve read is obscenely complex solutions which would be obvious if any of the professionals would invest the time to craft a process dialog (step by step) of how ‘their’ solution works. I would imagine they would be surprised at the voluminous amount of dependencies they would create and the vast number of timing elements which would transpire. That does not mean that it happened that way, and RobertMBlevins will have to remove his puckered lips from Tom Kaye’s starfish, it simply means it is the most simplistic solution as a starting point. RobertMBlevins licking some butthole at a museum will not change that equation any more than the ridiculous list of other reasons why some else’s theory is more gooder better. The fact that the very suggestion of dredging was shot down with such violence and bitterness, only indicated what a sorry crew of insecure underachievers were willing to sacrifice their credibility, for some little point. The Port of Portland told me they used all forms of dredging techniques and asked the rhetorical “How exactly would one remove a 24 inch obstacle with a 20 inch suction dredge?” That was the point I dropped the subject. I do get embarrassed. If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35043 October 27, 2012 Georger states: “Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months.” That’s the beginning of many unknowns which would be good to have cataloged, but is typically decimated by the rogues gallery once they sense something may not lead to their preselected answer. Tena Bar is a site of massive material processing. There are hundreds of thousands of yards of material, which share some homogeneity by virtue of being mechanically processed within a dozen miles. How much variation exists in that band (I don’t know)? Is it significant? Has it been mapped? Second variable is the former Tomahawk Island, which is directly under V-23 and had 40% of the landmass removed, for the construction of four marinas, between 1970 and 1985. This excavation had nothing to do with the Corps of Engineers since it wasn’t about maintaining navigability and the schedule of material transport is an unknown (to me). I checked with the historical society but had little luck regarding the rabid construction projects. So the dredge ‘Slot Machine’ has three reels (at least) of probability. Spoil deposits to Tena Bar, ephemeral deposit by dropping off a Tomahawk Island barge (falling off the boat) or any other number of activities which dislodge or directly transport the bundle (erosion, serendipity). Either way, there was an enormous amount of materials being moved from 1970 -1985, with construction and the expansion (not just maintenance) of the navigable waterway. Tena Bar being downstream (DOWN-frapping-STREAM) from V-23 makes passive transport, a zero sum gain, since it could have been moved through other means. A minimum (minimum) protocol for the money should have included being in a bag, attached to a body/rig, being compressed under heavy equipment wheels, under several masses of material and in loose formats. The study with a single bundle is weak, anemic and so unbalanced as to be virtually worthless (save the single bundle theory). There are many, many, many reasonable unknowns to remove before engaging in some of the brain dead leaps of logic. How someone could even entertain arriving at some macro conclusion is pure folly. Of course, I make NO claim of any knowledge to any of the scant uncharted conditions listed. I do know, how very little, I do know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #35044 October 27, 2012 QuoteFarflung writes: If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Georger writes: Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #35045 October 27, 2012 Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise: Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23. Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River. End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.” This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No? If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it. If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points? You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point. How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same. Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #35046 October 27, 2012 QuoteQuoteFarflung writes: If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Georger writes: Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99 Beautiful. I will reply to Farflung tomorrow. I have things yet to finish tonight and a ball game at 11:00 tomorrow. Nice post! I think you got the 'drift' of what was trying to say. Spoils placed 'over' something already in place would tend to lock it in until such time as erosion exposes it again, and there are ways to test that thesis. That's one scenario. Had something arrived at TBar early and not been covered over, then it might erode out rather quickly with any flood event. Its a matter of selecting between the options - based on evidence 'which applies to that problem'. One usual route is to look at chemistries, including chemistries of dredge spoils in particular. And Far is dead on. There was a lot of research on dredge spoils including at Tena Bar, before 1980. More to come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #35047 October 27, 2012 I do NOT know where you guys are going with this, but I know that a packet of packets of money were buried across from the PDK and just West of there. There were house built there later - There was a railroad track. Duane parked the car and told me to stay in the car. He went down a steep incline after opening the trunk of the car. He was there for some time. I is my theory he buried some of the money along the bank at that point. Then we get into the car and go to another area West of the highway - that was Tena's bar. Besides the tree and the house there was a shed - again he told me to stay in the car and he would be right back. Then we go to the Red Lion and this is when he throws a paper bag in to the water and whatched it going down stream that would have been in the direction of Tena's bar. He had already thrown something into water at the bridge that goes over to the OR side - He told me it was a candy wrapper. Three location he threw money or something into the river. One he buried because he had a shovel. I do not remember if he carried the shovel to Tena's bar, I though he went to the shed under the trees. When the FBI took me there - the shed was not there, but the guy said there used to be a shed there. I have no idea what you guys are trying to do other than to say it was part of the spoils - it wasn't it was all planted. It was damaged and not spendable. After we crossed the river to Portland and drove along the river he points out home basically built on the water and the we go as far as where the bridge was over on the WA side, but we are on the Or. side. He mentions a marina on that other side and a boat stolen and the let the boat loose right infront of the PDX. He had a smile on his face as he said that. There was mention of man who lived in one of the house that were built out on the water. I though what a great idea. I don't want to forget the green Tank on the WA side that we stood and talked about, but he didn't put anything in the water at that time. This big Tank was green and it was on a platform for floating it on the river - I suppose to move fuel of a place for fuel to be delivered for storage for the boat or equipment used on the river. I had gotten read for bed and went out side to do the Dirty (I smoke when I am ponder something and need to keep down. It is a private thing I do. The weather to night is great and I could NOt GET my mind of of the thing Duane did in a short period of time. What he did or why I do not know. but that was in Sept of 1999 and the money if found in Feb of March and then DUANE buys 2 new cars and leaves me in Co while he goes east - after H takes some thing to Omaho and puts them in a safedeposit box. None of this is scienctific, but my memories of the man who did do some strange things on that trip. WHY! Who was Stanley and who was Mattie Fillingham - what did the have to do with this. She was related to the Fargurers who had the airstrip near amboy. Why did Duane points this out to me. Oh Well no one cars No on give a Damn - but out side to night I could smell something going on. Duane worked on Government Island - but you know this already Well, I have one more little cigar left and I am going to smoke it before I die. It is amost 5 AM here.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #35048 October 27, 2012 Robert Blevins said: Quote Make fun of this if you wish, but it's hard to explain how MORE THAN ONE BUNDLE of the cash ended up buried together in the condition it was found. Three bundles together (approximate amount) is much harder to explain using dredging or washdown, especially above the water line. Part of Kaye's conclusions were based on the published FBI flight path being inconsistent with money ending up on T. Bar. So putting that aside...... why is it hard to imagine the money staying together under Farflung's scenario? What I think he is suggesting is that one natural way for the 3 bundles of money to stay together is that they were wet compressed/compacted - in or out of a bag - for a period of time before whatever mechanical or natural means brought them to their final resting place. Many of Kaye's conclusions (bundles coming apart, rubber bands degrading, assume that the money bundles were being stressed by moving constantly in the water for several + years. Even if the bundles got to T bar by dredging or flood, it doesn't seem likely that they just floated around wily nily for years. BTW...Kayes team chunked some banded bills in the river - and, because they found a bundle without the rubber band, they assumed that it degraded. Tell that to the walleye that thought he was about to feast on a worm. Plus the rubber band analysis fails to report the size and length of the rubber used in the underwater experiments AND we don't know the size or degree of stretch used on hijacked money. Small points maybe and I'm not saying that Kaye's stuff is irrelevant at all - a lot of it makes sense, and in a case like this I guess one is forced to make assumptions, Just saying that they made a lot of assumptions. Just saying...for a person that "QUESTIONs EVERYTHING", you don't seem to question a whole hell of a lot. One other point - I appreciate Kaye's work on the Cooper stuff. Some points, I think, are valid, some, I think, are just conjectures based on random probability. However, as he himself attests, none of it was done in a vacuum. Read the footnotes. He relied on a lot of previous work - some by past and present posters to this thread. To quote Farflung: Quote A minimum (minimum) protocol for the money should have included being in a bag, attached to a body/rig, being compressed under heavy equipment wheels, under several masses of material and in loose formats. The study with a single bundle is weak, anemic and so unbalanced as to be virtually worthless (save the single bundle theory). There are many, many, many reasonable unknowns to remove before engaging in some of the brain dead leaps of logic. How someone could even entertain arriving at some macro conclusion is pure folly. Of course, I make NO claim of any knowledge to any of the scant uncharted conditions listed. I do know, how very little, I do know. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #35049 October 27, 2012 Jo wroteQuote... I know that a packet of packets of money were buried across from the PDK and just West of there. There were house built there later - There was a railroad track. Jo, How do you know it was a packet of money? If Duane wanted to dispose of unusable or incriminating currency, why trek to the NW and risk observation and possible arrest? He had a lot of experience in getting caught and I assume he'd learn something from that. I just don't buy the "plant portions of the loot to make it look like Cooper died" stories. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #35050 October 27, 2012 "I have one thought for the flight sim process, though. Those sim maps are probably based on recent sat photos or whatever they use to create them. In other words, the ground lights and buildings shown may not be completely accurate, since the hijacking was 40+ years ago and many of the areas over the flight path have been developed much further (civilization inroads) since that time. Clearcuts where once was heavy forest, housing developments where once was nothing, etc. This especially applies to areas around Battleground and Vancouver, and less so further north nearer the Merwin Lake Dam." you are correct to some degree, the system has a date calendar on it, but, does not change the surroundings, 99% of the roads are on the sim, I'm not worried whether K-mart is there or not, the navigation speed and altitude are things that need to be correct. most of the city placements are very accurate and buildings in between are not, rivers lakes even golf courses are correct, the main goal is the flight in general. as for the lights, well they are a lot brighter on this end, not that they are 100% accurate, but they give a good idea of where you are in flight, I can see Vancouver and Portland from Lake Mewin easily (no cloud cover) the navigation system (not scenery) are very accurate with distance, altitude and coordinate's only showing a difference of up to about 200 feet on other maps. the software and add ons alone take up lots of space on my computer, I couldn't imagine how large the program would be if it changed the scenery with each year. I have a dedicated computer just for this system to function with little issues. still have some kinks to correct "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 Next Page 1402 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
georger 197 #35038 October 27, 2012 Will U be on Board or sitting in the middle of the woods trying to keep warm looking for Cooper's booty. It is TIME to put a stop to ALL of this Are you asking liddle ole ME ? Me on board or sitting in the middle ... trying to keep warm ... looking for Cooper's booty/bones ??? Yes dear. I did post saying there is activity at the ole Bar. I have no current planes to go up there. Ok? Are you going there? And who in hell told you!? Or did you guess? [Im betting youcalled someone right? Confess it!] Please answer Shutters post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35039 October 27, 2012 I believe the path just might be right as well, but nobody has tried flying it the way we are doing it, Tom backs us 100% on what we are doing so as I mentioned before, if it's right we will have documentation along with the hard work by others flying the path on paper. (calculations)"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #35040 October 27, 2012 Georger, I’m such a simplistic animal when it comes to work and play. I’m motivated by my laziness and greed whenever I design a process or product. Simply put; fewer touch-points, mean less cost and lower probability of failure. UNTIL (until that is) something comes along which causes a material change to the less complex, less expensive and therefore more likely solution; many potential solutions can exist until the dependent variables are measured. This of course has been buttseksed off this thread with poorly hidden agendas, egos and the usual bevy of insecurities which make Olive Garden Restaurants stay in business. The simplest way to get anything from a plane traveling V-23, to Tena Bar would involve a drop in the Columbia River. One step and passive velocity, what could be simpler? All I’ve read is obscenely complex solutions which would be obvious if any of the professionals would invest the time to craft a process dialog (step by step) of how ‘their’ solution works. I would imagine they would be surprised at the voluminous amount of dependencies they would create and the vast number of timing elements which would transpire. That does not mean that it happened that way, and RobertMBlevins will have to remove his puckered lips from Tom Kaye’s starfish, it simply means it is the most simplistic solution as a starting point. RobertMBlevins licking some butthole at a museum will not change that equation any more than the ridiculous list of other reasons why some else’s theory is more gooder better. The fact that the very suggestion of dredging was shot down with such violence and bitterness, only indicated what a sorry crew of insecure underachievers were willing to sacrifice their credibility, for some little point. The Port of Portland told me they used all forms of dredging techniques and asked the rhetorical “How exactly would one remove a 24 inch obstacle with a 20 inch suction dredge?” That was the point I dropped the subject. I do get embarrassed. If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #35041 October 27, 2012 Quote"If the co-pilot is piloting the plane he is in the Co-pilots seat on the right side of the plane and he see the lights of Vancouver or Portland thur the haze (note he says to his RIGHT) and NOT directly infront of him!" if he seen lights of Vancouver or Portland sitting on the right side of the plane looking right he wouldn't be west of these two? OH, I missed this until I got to Georger's post after fooling around a little. I think that is WHAT I said? The co-pilot sits on the right side of the plane - if he is looking out his window to the right and sees Vancouver or Portland - HE cannot be crossing the Columbia at Tena's bar. Does that help. R has ALWAYS said right and NOT dead on - now at a party for Mr. H after a few drinks (someone quoted him regarding a similar statement), but I do not recall what the party claimed. Maybe that was the Pilot at the party and not the co-pilot. Right is what led to the rest of the conversation I had with R. We talked about a hwy and a couple of other places on the EAST side of Vancouver and Portland - but, everyone else told me I was a fruit cake - everyone but R and originally Mr. H, but then Mr H. changed his story later on.... Those early days of my search were very hectic so I don't remember who said what.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #35042 October 27, 2012 QuoteGeorger, I’m such a simplistic animal when it comes to work and play. I’m motivated by my laziness and greed whenever I design a process or product. Simply put; fewer touch-points, mean less cost and lower probability of failure. UNTIL (until that is) something comes along which causes a material change to the less complex, less expensive and therefore more likely solution; many potential solutions can exist until the dependent variables are measured. This of course has been buttseksed off this thread with poorly hidden agendas, egos and the usual bevy of insecurities which make Olive Garden Restaurants stay in business. The simplest way to get anything from a plane traveling V-23, to Tena Bar would involve a drop in the Columbia River. One step and passive velocity, what could be simpler? All I’ve read is obscenely complex solutions which would be obvious if any of the professionals would invest the time to craft a process dialog (step by step) of how ‘their’ solution works. I would imagine they would be surprised at the voluminous amount of dependencies they would create and the vast number of timing elements which would transpire. That does not mean that it happened that way, and RobertMBlevins will have to remove his puckered lips from Tom Kaye’s starfish, it simply means it is the most simplistic solution as a starting point. RobertMBlevins licking some butthole at a museum will not change that equation any more than the ridiculous list of other reasons why some else’s theory is more gooder better. The fact that the very suggestion of dredging was shot down with such violence and bitterness, only indicated what a sorry crew of insecure underachievers were willing to sacrifice their credibility, for some little point. The Port of Portland told me they used all forms of dredging techniques and asked the rhetorical “How exactly would one remove a 24 inch obstacle with a 20 inch suction dredge?” That was the point I dropped the subject. I do get embarrassed. If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #35043 October 27, 2012 Georger states: “Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months.” That’s the beginning of many unknowns which would be good to have cataloged, but is typically decimated by the rogues gallery once they sense something may not lead to their preselected answer. Tena Bar is a site of massive material processing. There are hundreds of thousands of yards of material, which share some homogeneity by virtue of being mechanically processed within a dozen miles. How much variation exists in that band (I don’t know)? Is it significant? Has it been mapped? Second variable is the former Tomahawk Island, which is directly under V-23 and had 40% of the landmass removed, for the construction of four marinas, between 1970 and 1985. This excavation had nothing to do with the Corps of Engineers since it wasn’t about maintaining navigability and the schedule of material transport is an unknown (to me). I checked with the historical society but had little luck regarding the rabid construction projects. So the dredge ‘Slot Machine’ has three reels (at least) of probability. Spoil deposits to Tena Bar, ephemeral deposit by dropping off a Tomahawk Island barge (falling off the boat) or any other number of activities which dislodge or directly transport the bundle (erosion, serendipity). Either way, there was an enormous amount of materials being moved from 1970 -1985, with construction and the expansion (not just maintenance) of the navigable waterway. Tena Bar being downstream (DOWN-frapping-STREAM) from V-23 makes passive transport, a zero sum gain, since it could have been moved through other means. A minimum (minimum) protocol for the money should have included being in a bag, attached to a body/rig, being compressed under heavy equipment wheels, under several masses of material and in loose formats. The study with a single bundle is weak, anemic and so unbalanced as to be virtually worthless (save the single bundle theory). There are many, many, many reasonable unknowns to remove before engaging in some of the brain dead leaps of logic. How someone could even entertain arriving at some macro conclusion is pure folly. Of course, I make NO claim of any knowledge to any of the scant uncharted conditions listed. I do know, how very little, I do know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #35044 October 27, 2012 QuoteFarflung writes: If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Georger writes: Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #35045 October 27, 2012 Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise: Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23. Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River. End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.” This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No? If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it. If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points? You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point. How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same. Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #35046 October 27, 2012 QuoteQuoteFarflung writes: If some data puts Flight 305 right over Tena Bar, then I would have no desire to ‘force’ the flight back to centerline because my non-thinking boner won’t permit it. I’ve never been closed to many solutions in the matrix, just baffled at the total vacuum of sophistication regarding process analysis. Wills always beat out wits. Georger writes: Had the dredge spoils never been put on Tena Bar would the monies have been found there at all, over months. The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99 Beautiful. I will reply to Farflung tomorrow. I have things yet to finish tonight and a ball game at 11:00 tomorrow. Nice post! I think you got the 'drift' of what was trying to say. Spoils placed 'over' something already in place would tend to lock it in until such time as erosion exposes it again, and there are ways to test that thesis. That's one scenario. Had something arrived at TBar early and not been covered over, then it might erode out rather quickly with any flood event. Its a matter of selecting between the options - based on evidence 'which applies to that problem'. One usual route is to look at chemistries, including chemistries of dredge spoils in particular. And Far is dead on. There was a lot of research on dredge spoils including at Tena Bar, before 1980. More to come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #35047 October 27, 2012 I do NOT know where you guys are going with this, but I know that a packet of packets of money were buried across from the PDK and just West of there. There were house built there later - There was a railroad track. Duane parked the car and told me to stay in the car. He went down a steep incline after opening the trunk of the car. He was there for some time. I is my theory he buried some of the money along the bank at that point. Then we get into the car and go to another area West of the highway - that was Tena's bar. Besides the tree and the house there was a shed - again he told me to stay in the car and he would be right back. Then we go to the Red Lion and this is when he throws a paper bag in to the water and whatched it going down stream that would have been in the direction of Tena's bar. He had already thrown something into water at the bridge that goes over to the OR side - He told me it was a candy wrapper. Three location he threw money or something into the river. One he buried because he had a shovel. I do not remember if he carried the shovel to Tena's bar, I though he went to the shed under the trees. When the FBI took me there - the shed was not there, but the guy said there used to be a shed there. I have no idea what you guys are trying to do other than to say it was part of the spoils - it wasn't it was all planted. It was damaged and not spendable. After we crossed the river to Portland and drove along the river he points out home basically built on the water and the we go as far as where the bridge was over on the WA side, but we are on the Or. side. He mentions a marina on that other side and a boat stolen and the let the boat loose right infront of the PDX. He had a smile on his face as he said that. There was mention of man who lived in one of the house that were built out on the water. I though what a great idea. I don't want to forget the green Tank on the WA side that we stood and talked about, but he didn't put anything in the water at that time. This big Tank was green and it was on a platform for floating it on the river - I suppose to move fuel of a place for fuel to be delivered for storage for the boat or equipment used on the river. I had gotten read for bed and went out side to do the Dirty (I smoke when I am ponder something and need to keep down. It is a private thing I do. The weather to night is great and I could NOt GET my mind of of the thing Duane did in a short period of time. What he did or why I do not know. but that was in Sept of 1999 and the money if found in Feb of March and then DUANE buys 2 new cars and leaves me in Co while he goes east - after H takes some thing to Omaho and puts them in a safedeposit box. None of this is scienctific, but my memories of the man who did do some strange things on that trip. WHY! Who was Stanley and who was Mattie Fillingham - what did the have to do with this. She was related to the Fargurers who had the airstrip near amboy. Why did Duane points this out to me. Oh Well no one cars No on give a Damn - but out side to night I could smell something going on. Duane worked on Government Island - but you know this already Well, I have one more little cigar left and I am going to smoke it before I die. It is amost 5 AM here.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #35048 October 27, 2012 Robert Blevins said: Quote Make fun of this if you wish, but it's hard to explain how MORE THAN ONE BUNDLE of the cash ended up buried together in the condition it was found. Three bundles together (approximate amount) is much harder to explain using dredging or washdown, especially above the water line. Part of Kaye's conclusions were based on the published FBI flight path being inconsistent with money ending up on T. Bar. So putting that aside...... why is it hard to imagine the money staying together under Farflung's scenario? What I think he is suggesting is that one natural way for the 3 bundles of money to stay together is that they were wet compressed/compacted - in or out of a bag - for a period of time before whatever mechanical or natural means brought them to their final resting place. Many of Kaye's conclusions (bundles coming apart, rubber bands degrading, assume that the money bundles were being stressed by moving constantly in the water for several + years. Even if the bundles got to T bar by dredging or flood, it doesn't seem likely that they just floated around wily nily for years. BTW...Kayes team chunked some banded bills in the river - and, because they found a bundle without the rubber band, they assumed that it degraded. Tell that to the walleye that thought he was about to feast on a worm. Plus the rubber band analysis fails to report the size and length of the rubber used in the underwater experiments AND we don't know the size or degree of stretch used on hijacked money. Small points maybe and I'm not saying that Kaye's stuff is irrelevant at all - a lot of it makes sense, and in a case like this I guess one is forced to make assumptions, Just saying that they made a lot of assumptions. Just saying...for a person that "QUESTIONs EVERYTHING", you don't seem to question a whole hell of a lot. One other point - I appreciate Kaye's work on the Cooper stuff. Some points, I think, are valid, some, I think, are just conjectures based on random probability. However, as he himself attests, none of it was done in a vacuum. Read the footnotes. He relied on a lot of previous work - some by past and present posters to this thread. To quote Farflung: Quote A minimum (minimum) protocol for the money should have included being in a bag, attached to a body/rig, being compressed under heavy equipment wheels, under several masses of material and in loose formats. The study with a single bundle is weak, anemic and so unbalanced as to be virtually worthless (save the single bundle theory). There are many, many, many reasonable unknowns to remove before engaging in some of the brain dead leaps of logic. How someone could even entertain arriving at some macro conclusion is pure folly. Of course, I make NO claim of any knowledge to any of the scant uncharted conditions listed. I do know, how very little, I do know. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #35049 October 27, 2012 Jo wroteQuote... I know that a packet of packets of money were buried across from the PDK and just West of there. There were house built there later - There was a railroad track. Jo, How do you know it was a packet of money? If Duane wanted to dispose of unusable or incriminating currency, why trek to the NW and risk observation and possible arrest? He had a lot of experience in getting caught and I assume he'd learn something from that. I just don't buy the "plant portions of the loot to make it look like Cooper died" stories. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #35050 October 27, 2012 "I have one thought for the flight sim process, though. Those sim maps are probably based on recent sat photos or whatever they use to create them. In other words, the ground lights and buildings shown may not be completely accurate, since the hijacking was 40+ years ago and many of the areas over the flight path have been developed much further (civilization inroads) since that time. Clearcuts where once was heavy forest, housing developments where once was nothing, etc. This especially applies to areas around Battleground and Vancouver, and less so further north nearer the Merwin Lake Dam." you are correct to some degree, the system has a date calendar on it, but, does not change the surroundings, 99% of the roads are on the sim, I'm not worried whether K-mart is there or not, the navigation speed and altitude are things that need to be correct. most of the city placements are very accurate and buildings in between are not, rivers lakes even golf courses are correct, the main goal is the flight in general. as for the lights, well they are a lot brighter on this end, not that they are 100% accurate, but they give a good idea of where you are in flight, I can see Vancouver and Portland from Lake Mewin easily (no cloud cover) the navigation system (not scenery) are very accurate with distance, altitude and coordinate's only showing a difference of up to about 200 feet on other maps. the software and add ons alone take up lots of space on my computer, I couldn't imagine how large the program would be if it changed the scenery with each year. I have a dedicated computer just for this system to function with little issues. still have some kinks to correct "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
