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georger 197
QuoteThanks for the Cossey info Georger. I understand that the non functional reserve was a ground training aid, but what was the intended use of an NB 6 overstuffed with a 28 ft C9 that may have been a nearly impossibly hard pull? Why do a really hard overstuffed pack job when you could just put foam in it if it was intended for a similar use as the non functional reserve?
It is really dangerous to have non functional emergency gear that looks functional. The Coast Guard will write you a citation if you have non functional life saving gear (such as a survival suit with a damaged zipper or open seam) aboard an inspected vessel even of you also have the required types and quantities of fully functional gear.
377
Again: the two front reserves came from the flight school off a shelf. Cossey provided the two back packs from his home including a hard pull
nb8/nb6 "which he had packed for his own
personal use".
Ckret posted as follows:
Ckret
Jun 12, 2008, 9:28 PM
Post #2512 of 2519 (53 views)
Registered: Sep 7, 2007
Posts: 350
Sluggo,
The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey's chutes, he had them at his house, they weren't at Seattle Skysports. I asked Cossey why he packed a 28 foot canopy in the NB6 and he just shrugged. Kind of like, "it was my chute, I did it because I can." I like that guy, I could have talked to him all day but he grew tired of me in about an hour.
Ckret
and:
Ckret
Jun 13, 2008, 9:56 AM
Post #2532 of 2672 (263 views)
Registered: Sep 7, 2007
Posts: 371
Question about the NB6, now that we have an NB6 expert here. When I talked with Cossey he explained how he configured the chute but did so as if I knew what he was talking about. (you ever talk to someone with so much expertise they don't have the time or desire to take it down a notch)
He talked about a two phase pull because of where he placed the handle. (it would have been under the right armpit) He said Cooper would have had to pull fully out and then up to deploy the chute. If he only pulled the handle out the chute would not have delopyed.
Can someone tell me if this is normal? Why would there have been a two directional pull?
Nitrochute then posted as follows:
nitrochute PM Friend JumpsLicenseIn sport : 3500: D : 42 years
Jun 13, 2008, 11:00 AM Post #2549 of 2672 (176 views) Registered: Apr 7, 2004Posts: 216 Re: [Ckret] Skydivers, I need your HELP! - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply
i have never seen an nb6/8 with the ripcord located on the right side mai n liftweb(unless it was a military rig modified for use as a sport main parchute).it is designed (as all military pilot rigs are) with the ripcord on the left main liftweb.for the reasons that guru stated, it would be dangerous to have moved the r/c to the right side main liftweb (what we call an outboard pull)it exposes the r/c to a greater risk of snagging or getting grabbed by a student who is panicking.i think maybe cossey is either mistaken or getting senile. it DOES NOT make sense that he would have configured it that way. as to the 2 stage pull.yes most any ripcord deployed system requires a 2 stage pull, the 1st stage is to remove the handle from its pocket, the second stage is actually to pull on the handle to extract the pins and open the container.the direction of pull to extract the pins depends on the type of rig. a backpack you pull down and out toward your feet .that is because the metal r/c housing(,the metal tube that the ripcord cable travels in to go from the front of the harness to the top of the parachute container,)travels up and over your left shoulder on a back type parachute.[right shoulder if outboard pull].if you pull sideways ,there is so much friction between the r/c cable and the housing that you may not be able to pull it.the pull that cossey suggested is for a seat type parchute where the r/c housing comes up from the left side of the seat pack (on your butt) to the left side main lift web.i have never seen a stock military harness backpack(from that era) where the r/c housing comes off the bottom of the container and then upwards toward the main liftweb.
Nirochute again:
nitrochute
JumpsLicenseIn sport : 3500: D : 42 years
Jun 13, 2008, 4:03 PM
Post #2560 of 2673 (299 views)
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 216
Re: [Ckret] money - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply
hmmmm....it appears that cossey modified the location of the ripcord.but i still am unclear on why he would do that. i have in 40+ years never seen somone do such an odd mod to a pilot emergency chute. was cossey a pilot as well as a rigger /jumper? and the chute was used strictly by him when he flew jumpers?. it seems such an odd set up from your description. does cossey have any interest in joining us on this forum?if it was set up that way i can almost guarantee that cooper bounced because it is such an odd configuration.
and Guri312 replied to the above:
Guru312
JumpsLicenseIn sport : 900: C 6814: 48 years
Jun 13, 2008, 6:37 PM
Post #2565 of 2673 (241 views)
Registered: Sep 3, 2003
Posts: 247
Re: [Ckret] money - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply
In Reply To
Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate right handed and he really meant left?
Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually.
I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!"
As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would.
His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right.
Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out.
My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it.
OK...what's next?
Guru.
Ckret replied:
Ckret
Jun 13, 2008, 10:13 PM
Post #2575 of 2673 (127 views)
Registered: Sep 7, 2007
Posts: 371
Re: [snowmman] virtual knapsack? - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Snowmman,
The problem is the witnesses saw the bag attached around his waist. So I don't think your chest theory would work out.
Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper was given an instruction sheet on the chutes, wonder if it was Cossey trying to tell Cooper, "there's something you should know about one of these chutes...."
Regardless, all the pieces matter and only by running them into the ground (as painful as it is) can we be sure we are getting it right.
and ...
Ckret
Jun 14, 2008, 3:13 PM
Post #2600 of 2675 (123 views)
Registered: Sep 7, 2007
Posts: 371
Re: [happythoughts] money - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey.
I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.
Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them.
Let's just say that a parachute dedicated to emergency use (a pilot rig) might be considered more reliable than a sport main.
The emergency rig has to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, while a sport main may be packed by the person making the jump.
If Cooper had experience walking around the back of a plane dropping objects, he would have been wearing a pilot emergency rig, not a sport rig. The sport rig would have modifications unfamiliar to a load master.
It makes sense to stick with something familiar.
..............................
Left handed or right handed - it makes sense to a non-jumper.
"They retrived DNA from me in March of 2003, but I have not heard anything and they never returned the item. I was not foolish enough to give them all that I had. " (Nov 14 2006)
This is how I feel about that:
If I had given them his watch - I would never have seen it again (very very fine watch). I also did not give them his work watch. I kept a few things in reserve.
I don't know a widow in this world that would turn over every memory she had of her husband. If they had wanted to take a dna samples from the watches - they should have brought DNA testing equipment with them. There are 2 watches. One is very valuable.
I also do not understand why you guys are wasting VALUABLE space making quotes from the other thread. Anyone that is interested is capable of going back to read it.
It seem obvious to me this may well be your intention - use up space. It is not me that turns the attentions to Duane - what I am trying to do is show things the FBI missed - but, some of you don't want that information made available to the public. I wonder why?
We ALL know I have explored the many possiblilities - what is important are the things that even I missed. I have already stated that I had gone back to the original train of thoubht - the things I told the FBI in 1996 and to Himmelsback and other - what I did know about Duane before I became I was informed of his having been in 6 prisons for 17 yrs. This firefighting was the ORIGINAL link - and the only link I was able to provide the FBI with in 1996.
Over the next few yrs I get calls (lots of them) from someone looking for aquick buck, some offering real information and learn things from the FBI . Duane's Con yrs. (I am speaking of San Quentin, Folsom, Canon City, Columbia and Jefferson - I do believe those prison and the company he kept involved him in many things through the yrs. I explored how every possiblity could have been involved in the skyjacking.
If Duane wanted to confess to something - he could have claimed to have been CIA or involved in the Bay of Pigs or that he was involved in assassinating someone......no doubt with his criminal background he was involved in many things.
As for my interest in the Claudian Webber - think about that. His fathers name was Claudian and the middle name of the false Id's. John C. Collins, John Chalk Collins and his brothers middle name was Claudian. I did the realistic thing and investigated and explored.
How else do you solve a crime?
He was NOT a licensed jumper - and most of the guys from those early yrs were NEVER licensed jumpers in the CA group in the 30's and into the early 40's.
Orange1 0
Jo, I think I speak for all of us when I say any info is welcome to be made public, however in this forum preferably to be kept in reference to trying to solve the Cooper case.
And please don't be disingenuous talking about "wasting valuable space", is everyone meant to go and read 11000 posts or whatever it is all the time? Just because you get embarrassed by what people post. You don't seem to mind when it is about Cossey or whatever.
oh, there is a second point to be made about wasting valuable space...
377 21
Quote"They retrived DNA from me in March of 2003, but I have not heard anything and they never returned the item. I was not foolish enough to give them all that I had. " (Nov 14 2006)
This is how I feel about that:
If I had given them his watch - I would never have seen it again (very very fine watch). I also did not give them his work watch. I kept a few things in reserve.
I don't know a widow in this world that would turn over every memory she had of her husband. If they had wanted to take a dna samples from the watches - they should have brought DNA testing equipment with them. There are 2 watches. One is very valuable.
Jo,
You are ALWAYS holding something back, in this case perhaps better DNA samples because you didn't trust the FBI with Duane's valuable watches. Good grief! What holdback revelation is coming next?
The FBI was supposed to bring genetic analysis lab gear to your house? Give me a break. How do you expect to be taken seriously?
What makes you so sure the watches really belonged to Duane? By your own admission he was a thief, even taking better coats than the ones he left in cloakrooms when you two went out to dine. Why didn't you stop him?
Show me a thief with a good watch and usually somewhere there is a theft victim. Thieves rarely buy good watches at retail establishments. Does it ever strike you as ironic that you feared the FBI would steal watches that Duane probably stole from others?
I always cut you some slack and treat you cordially, but this endless teasing and partial disclosure really detracts from your credibility and tries my patience. Just stop it and show your cards Jo, ALL of them.
Sluggo went waaaay out of his way to help you put all your relevant evidence out for public review, but predictably, you didn't come through. Being the true southern gentleman that he is, he just held his tongue and let you continue your tired and predictable routine. I would not have been nearly as charitable after making such an effort. I gotta admire Sluggo's unswerving integrity under such trying circumstances.
Put Duane in a chute or jumpship. If you can't, it is probably because he never had anything to do with parachute operations, not because of some spook agency coverup.
Occam's razor applied to Duane says crook, convict and con man but not jumper and not Cooper, at least not based on any evidence you or anyone else has produced.
You have permanently alienated so many on this forum, from Sluggo to Ckret to Georger to Orange to Jerry and many others but not me, at least not yet. Everybody has their limits though and you are pushing them.
Still, I welcome your posts Jo and still think you are absolutely sincere in your obsessive belief that Duane was Cooper or was directly involved with him. I even think he did confess to being Dan Cooper on his death bed. I just don't think he actually was Cooper or was associated with him. That's where we disagree.
377
377 21
QuoteSomthing that i have been thinking about that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me is. Cossey said he set the NB6 up to be his personal rig. If i am setting my rig up for me, why would i set up the rig for a hard pull giving me a chance for a no pull?????? I don't know much about Cossey but the little bit discussed here. That just seemed very odd. I have never jumped rounds so it may be somthing of a norm. can sombody with knowledge help me out on understanding this one. I guess thats what i get for being a turbine DZ baby. HA!
It puzzles me too SKYWHUFFO. I made over 100 round jumps and two of them were VERY hard pulls on rental gear, a 28 ft sleeved C9 crammed into a very tight unextended surplus container. Scary as hell and unlike Cooper, I had a reserve.
Back in the day there was no AFF. They tossed you out and it was up to you to teach yourself freefall stability. I tumbled wildly in every axis before I finally got the knack. It was so discouraging and frightening. Trying to manage a hard pull while tumbling and screaming past your hard deck is something you never forget. You become obessed with pulling, making the damned thing work. You focus on it with incredible intensity, shutting out all other thoughts. I should have just gone to my reserve but there is something about the situation that erases rational assessment.
Many jumpers without AADs have gone in as no pulls, fighting a balky main deployment system right into the ground. Sometimes in their panic, they fixate on the wrong item to pull and go in pulling wildly at webbing rather than a ripcord handle or pilot chute hackey.
Why anyone would pack a really hard pull on a bailout rig baffles me. Maybe the rigger was the typical jumpship owner hiring a kid pilot for peanuts who is trying to build time.
imagined dialogue: "Kid, the FAA says I have to provide you with a bailout rig, and I have, but it is packed so tight that you will not have enough strength to pull and deploy it. So kid, I hope you get the picture. You WILL fly my Cessna back to the DZ, no matter what. Do we understand each other?"
377
Orange1 0
QuoteSomthing that i have been thinking about that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me is. Cossey said he set the NB6 up to be his personal rig. If i am setting my rig up for me, why would i set up the rig for a hard pull giving me a chance for a no pull?????? I don't know much about Cossey but the little bit discussed here. That just seemed very odd. I have never jumped rounds so it may be somthing of a norm. can sombody with knowledge help me out on understanding this one. I guess thats what i get for being a turbine DZ baby. HA!
Wasn't there something about a particular angle to pull? The stuff the other guys wrote about the benefits of a bigger canopy etc maybe make sense? If you need it for that and youy know what the "trick" for the pull is, doesn't that make some kind of sense?
Orange1 0
Quoteimagined dialogue: "Kid, the FAA says I have to provide you with a bailout rig, and I have, but it is packed so tight that you will not have enough strength to pull and deploy it. So kid, I hope you get the picture. You WILL fly my Cessna back to the DZ, no matter what. Do we understand each other?"
377
yeah, or that :) does anyone know if bailout rigs for pilots were mandatory back then by the way?
377 21
QuoteQuoteimagined dialogue: "Kid, the FAA says I have to provide you with a bailout rig, and I have, but it is packed so tight that you will not have enough strength to pull and deploy it. So kid, I hope you get the picture. You WILL fly my Cessna back to the DZ, no matter what. Do we understand each other?"
377
yeah, or that :) does anyone know if bailout rigs for pilots were mandatory back then by the way?
They had pilot bail out rigs at my DZ in 68. They didnt buy ANYTHING unless it was required. They'd have flown planes without annual inspections if it was legal and probably used unlicensed pilots too. It was all about maximum altitude and minimum price back in the day. FAA rules were seen as parasitic drag and we have the crashes to prove it.
I was on this plane but jumped at 8500 ft. The pilot then descended for his fatal buzz job. I have nightmares about that horrible crash even today, decades after it occurred.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=67768&key=0
377
Orange1 0
Pretty damning NTSB report on the pilot ..
C180 is that the same size/similar to 182? Aren't those size cessnas not supposed to be used for aerobatics at all? Whatever, horrible stuff...
I understand that in most instances a cessna can be glided to the ground. Certain countries do not have bail-out rigs mandatory for pilots and I have seen the same pilot use one on a porter but not when flying cessnas. ...anyway.. we digress.
edited to add: am i reading right that the pilot only had 4 hours on that type of plane?
georger 197
QuoteQuoteSomthing that i have been thinking about that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me is. Cossey said he set the NB6 up to be his personal rig. If i am setting my rig up for me, why would i set up the rig for a hard pull giving me a chance for a no pull?????? I don't know much about Cossey but the little bit discussed here. That just seemed very odd. I have never jumped rounds so it may be somthing of a norm. can sombody with knowledge help me out on understanding this one. I guess thats what i get for being a turbine DZ baby. HA!
It puzzles me too SKYWHUFFO. I made over 100 round jumps and two of them were VERY hard pulls on rental gear, a 28 ft sleeved C9 crammed into a very tight unextended surplus container. Scary as hell and unlike Cooper, I had a reserve.
Back in the day there was no AFF. They tossed you out and it was up to you to teach yourself freefall stability. I tumbled wildly in every axis before I finally got the knack. It was so discouraging and frightening. Trying to manage a hard pull while tumbling and screaming past your hard deck is something you never forget. You become obessed with pulling, making the damned thing work. You focus on it with incredible intensity, shutting out all other thoughts. I should have just gone to my reserve but there is something about the situation that erases rational assessment.
Many jumpers without AADs have gone in as no pulls, fighting a balky main deployment system right into the ground. Sometimes in their panic, they fixate on the wrong item to pull and go in pulling wildly at webbing rather than a ripcord handle or pilot chute hackey.
Why anyone would pack a really hard pull on a bailout rig baffles me. Maybe the rigger was the typical jumpship owner hiring a kid pilot for peanuts who is trying to build time.
I think your description above is pretty good. Now
if Cooper had experience how did he fare? If he didnt have experience?!! But the old posts I posted covered these issues. Cossey told Ckret he packed as he did "because I can". Remember it was for his own personal use. And Guru did a good job of explaining it, as he sees it.
Cossey is right handed.
QuoteThere may be nothing more than human psychology that ties it all together. I can see why people might want others to think they were Cooper. After all, he was a folk hero of sorts, a Robin Hood, a guy who outsmarted the FBI and who showed great cunning and courage. If you had drifted through life without accomplishing anything substantial (as Clark Kent) you might want your loved ones to think that that you were really Superman.
Quote
Yup, that sure is possible. Duane's utterance has sent Jo on a 13-year tear, so maybe he sensed a good response even if post-mortem. But frankly, I think it's a stretch. But I do see the potential.
However, looking more closely, particularly at Barb Dayton, I don't see the pay-offs with others. Barb didn't demonstrate a need to brag or flash her skills in any other area of her life. She had her stories, told them, and whatever people thought or did with them, she seemed disconnected from their reactions. In fact, her confession put her in jeopardy with the Cessna crew, and fortunately for her, they clammed up.
As for McCoy and his Mystery Tour to Vegas, he apparently didn't tell anyone about that caper, so he didn't need to brag either.
Gossett? Well, I guess we'll have to wait for Galen, on that. But the sons haven't shed any light on any possible psychological pay-off for their dad.
georger 197
QuotePretty damning NTSB report on the pilot ..
C180 is that the same size/similar to 182? Aren't those size cessnas not supposed to be used for aerobatics at all? Whatever, horrible stuff...
I understand that in most instances a cessna can be glided to the ground. Certain countries do not have bail-out rigs mandatory for pilots and I have seen the same pilot use one on a porter but not when flying cessnas. ...anyway.. we digress.
edited to add: am i reading right that the pilot only had 4 hours on that type of plane?
Some of the old barnstormers were fearless and
stupid. I ran into a number of these in AK one
summer/fall (lake jumpers who thought they
were flying submarines). I saw one guy collapse three sets of landing gear in three weeks (until
he got fired). He was flying the next day for
another company.
I have often wondered if one of this type was Cooper. These guys will do anything ! But this
type isnt on Ckret's list, which may be a mistake.
(It could also account for the person not having
any family in WA?) This type wouldnt even hesitate to bail into the woods...
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