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georger 197
QuoteThe pressure bumps casued by jumpers exiting the DC 9 were so unusual that I took immediate notice and never will forget them. As I have said before with my eyes closed I could have given you an accurate count of every jumper leaving, it was that distinct. It was a "swoosh thunk" kind of acoustic event. Never felt anything like it on any tailgate plane.
The stair rebound pressure bump on the 727 must have been more pronouced and would have been a real anomaly for a 727 aircrew, something they'd remember (as Georger points out) and obviously associate with something significant happening back there.
377
Good report. I wonder what Jerry thinks about this?
QuoteQuade before you crash the thread. Fnd a photo I went to - it was a group of men and the jumper is on the ground and to the right of the photo is a man on the ground trying to pull out this guys chute. It was made in CA. The man with the glasses doing this looks like on of the younger man in this photo. I think Nick was the one who posted it. Help! l
I am doing this blind so I hope you can read it.
The guy in the "Where and When" is not Duane Weber nor is the guy in the photo I am looking for. But I am hoping that guy is the same guy in my "Where and When".
I think Nick posted the piciture - or he was posting in that thread.
I am not going to edit the rest of that post - I will just leave it be so as to remind myself never to post with a pill in me ever again.Quote
WOW I should never have tried to make a reply with my medication in me. So Sorry! That was just a bunch of jibberish. You are right - good thing it is not illegal to post with a pill in you - that post sure gave me second thoughts and thirds about driving myself to the hospital in the middle of the night. Think it might be safer to call an ambulance.
The picture I am referring to is the When and Where which I will attach. The young man in the glasses is the concern. In another thread on this forum someone posted a picture of a young man helping a jumper secure his chute after landing. There were others I believe in the background. The picture if my memory serves me right was from the 60's. When I saw it - something about it - made me remember it.
When the "When and Where" picture came jumping back at me I went looking for the posted picture in a thread I had seen. I think the young man with the glasses and the man in that other picture sure look alike . From what I remember the young man was to the right in the photo and was down trying to secure the chute - (perhaps it was windy). You could not make out who the jumper was and there seemed to be a couple of people in the background.
Since I do not post in the threads I visit just to observe - (I have made rare posts if I thought it something I could relate to or compliment). I want to say it was in CA. Never dreamt I would have to find a posted photo from my memory that I viewed one time.
Anyone of you out there reading this thread - if you know where that particular photo was posted please let me know - a PM is ok.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 197
QuoteSluggo,
They sure do convey different info.
Statement 1: Anderson remembered the pressure bump that occurred during the hijack and expected it to happen again during the test. He compared the events and they were identical.
Statement 2: Anderson did not recall a pressure bump but was reminded of its occurrence during the hijack when it occurred during the test.
Is that what you mean? I wonder which Anderson statement paraphrase is the more accurate one?
377
Well evidently it was just another trick question.
The author hasn't replied. Must have something
to do with Jo Weber.
Orange1 0
QuoteThe pressure bumps casued by jumpers exiting the DC 9 were so unusual that I took immediate notice and never will forget them. As I have said before with my eyes closed I could have given you an accurate count of every jumper leaving, it was that distinct. It was a "swoosh thunk" kind of acoustic event. Never felt anything like it on any tailgate plane.
The stair rebound pressure bump on the 727 must have been more pronouced and would have been a real anomaly for a 727 aircrew, something they'd remember (as Georger points out) and obviously associate with something significant happening back there.
377
I agree with Georger, great insight (I don't recall you mentioning this before?) -- there was some debate earlier about whether the pressure bump actually was the exit but based on other stuff and this I would tend to think it was. Now the only thing we need to do is know we have the right flight path
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Quote
Well evidently it was just another trick question.
The author hasn't replied. Must have something
to do with Jo Weber.
Not quilty! I think the man does work for a living and is not retired like many of us.
TO ALL:
A book you guys need to read; Smoke Jumping on the Western FIre Line: Consicientious Objectors During World War 11. (2006)
The CPS camps hired excons, cooks, riggers, land fighters, pilots, loadmasters and other unrelated workers for the camps.
After 1943 because of some objections by others they sent the excons to other camps such as the one I have been researching. I have sent for the book and another book by the same author called A Great Day for a Fire Fight.
I wish I was well enough to get on a plane and go to CA and then to the Bittercreek area in Mt. I have said for 12 yrs they are where the connection is. The things he showed me and told me over the yrs - a wooden tower. Duane told me he helped build it.
There was a smilar tower on a site for this book - but not the same one he showed me. What-ever book the Camino pic showed up in also had a pic of a Wooden Tower - a straight forward shot. I have not been able to find the book the Camino pics where orginally in - just the CPS site...and the site doesn't mention a book...but has the same photos that were in that book. Also the book had a pic of that damn truck by itself and not with the guys standing infront of it.
Can anyone help with this? None of the above says Duane was Cooper, but they can help me find closure and I desperately need that at this time. If I had had a computer in 1996 - most of these people where still alive. All I could do was put it in the hands of the FBI and they screwed up. If they can bold facely say that Duane was not Cooper then they must know something I have never been told and that they have never told me.
If he wasn't Cooper then what is so secretive about Duane's past.
If they can say he wasn't Cooper - what are they basing this on. I recently read "Christainsen Camp" was told the DNA was damaged and could not be use to make an identity? This was coming from the investigator who did the background on Christiansen (not the writer).
Why did the FBI not let the public know that fact after they "excused' not excluded Weber? What exactly is the FBI doing now ? Do any of you get the feeling they are doing a balancing act on the fence gate?
Things seem to be very clear right now - I am remembering things I didn't remember before. I have had 2 real bad days - I am surprised I remember anything much less something new. Maybe it is the medication and I am delusional.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
1. I don't "need" to read any books that i don't want to. I've posted links before about smokejumpers and WW2 btw.
2. The FBI has told you why Duane wasn't Cooper. You just refuse to believe them.
3. Even if your Christiansen source is correct, you need to distinguish between what the DNA can tell you. From what I understand incomplete DNA cannot be used to conclusively match an identity (true) but it can still be used to exclude someone if what is still there doesn't match a sample.
4. I realise none of this is going to make any difference to your conviction that Duane was Cooper - nothing anyone can tell you will. The only thing you will accept is evidence that he WAS, evidence which clearly will never be found.
5. As to what the FBI is doing now, I'd wager 2 guesses: (1) chasing after criminals whose capture will make a difference to American society (2) with regards to the Cooper case, pursuing leads that they think will actually take them to a culprit rather than wasting any more of their time.
2. The FBI has told you why Duane wasn't Cooper. You just refuse to believe them.
3. Even if your Christiansen source is correct, you need to distinguish between what the DNA can tell you. From what I understand incomplete DNA cannot be used to conclusively match an identity (true) but it can still be used to exclude someone if what is still there doesn't match a sample.
4. I realise none of this is going to make any difference to your conviction that Duane was Cooper - nothing anyone can tell you will. The only thing you will accept is evidence that he WAS, evidence which clearly will never be found.
5. As to what the FBI is doing now, I'd wager 2 guesses: (1) chasing after criminals whose capture will make a difference to American society (2) with regards to the Cooper case, pursuing leads that they think will actually take them to a culprit rather than wasting any more of their time.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Quote
2. The FBI has told you why Duane wasn't Cooper. You just refuse to believe them.
What have the told me? The team knows more than I do. ALL I was told was that the DNA "EXCUSED" not excluded Duane. THAT is ALL I have been TOLD.
Now from outside sources I read that the FBI has admitted the DNA is damaged is not conclusive enough to exclude or include ANYONE. Why don't you call Sherlock Holmes Investigations in NY and ask them yourself.
Or call the FBI - I don't bother with them anymore - since all they have done is lie to me. Perhaps you should suggest they send me a letter as to the condition of the DNA and if they still stand by the ONLY thing they have told me.
What ELSE has the FBI disqualified Duane Weber under - NOTHING? If they have something besides the damaged DNA - do I not have the right to know? Perhaps if everyone in this forum contacted the FBI and asked them to provide his widow with the detailed proof of how they KNOW Duane Weber is not Cooper, I might get the information you CLAIM I have been told.
They have not even sent me the detailed records of Duane Weber - they should know how many times he was married and if I was even his legal wife. The should be able to make the SS records of John Collins aka Duane Weber available to his wife and let the SS know that the two where the same. The same for any other aliases and SS numbers thay have for him.
They have told me diddly squat.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
Jo, please show us exactly where it is said that the DNA is damaged enough to EXCLUDE anyone.
And you are conveniently forgetting that no macth for Duane's fingerprints was found. And please don't start on about Duane managing to get his fingerprints altered again... rather go back and read the discussions on that.
For most people, exclusions on DNA and fingerprints would be sufficient. But you expect the FBI to act as your personal PI agency and investigate every detail of Duane's life to make you happy, or satisifed or whatever. Why on earth should they waste their time investigating someone who preliminary investigations tell them is not a suspect? Why are you the only person in the world who cannot see why they are not investigating aspects of Duane's life as you keep on asking, no, demanding they do?
And you are conveniently forgetting that no macth for Duane's fingerprints was found. And please don't start on about Duane managing to get his fingerprints altered again... rather go back and read the discussions on that.
For most people, exclusions on DNA and fingerprints would be sufficient. But you expect the FBI to act as your personal PI agency and investigate every detail of Duane's life to make you happy, or satisifed or whatever. Why on earth should they waste their time investigating someone who preliminary investigations tell them is not a suspect? Why are you the only person in the world who cannot see why they are not investigating aspects of Duane's life as you keep on asking, no, demanding they do?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
NOTE: This info may have already been posted.
I have been doing some research for a couple on “media types” and I stumbled across some articles that indicate (to me) that the “smokejumper” hypothesis was pretty thoroughly investigated (and dismissed) by the FBI as soon as a few hours after the hijacking.
Here’s the scoop:
A passenger named “Michael Cooper” boarded Flight 305 at MSO (Missoula International Airport - Missoula, Montana). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from MSO to SEA.
A passenger named “Dan Cooper” boarded at PDX (Portland International Airport - Portland, Oregon). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from PDX to SEA.
Dan Cooper was not on the list of passengers that de-planed at SEA after the money/parachute exchange.
This situation evidently was un-nerving or a curiosity to the investigators (FBI).
The FBI contacted Leonard Kraut of the US Forest Service Smokejumper Training Center near Missoula, Montana and asked if a “Michael Cooper” had ever trained or jumped from there. This contact may have been made while the plane was enroute to Reno (my conjecture).
Kraut stayed up all night searching the school’s records and reported the next morning that no one named Michael Cooper had ever trained or jumped from there.
My conclusion from all of this is that the FBI was “all over” the smokejumper possibility beginning while the hijack was in progress (or within a few hours) and probably exhausted that avenue of investigation, before (or congruent with) moving to “sport parachuting” as a suspect pool.
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I have been doing some research for a couple on “media types” and I stumbled across some articles that indicate (to me) that the “smokejumper” hypothesis was pretty thoroughly investigated (and dismissed) by the FBI as soon as a few hours after the hijacking.
Here’s the scoop:
A passenger named “Michael Cooper” boarded Flight 305 at MSO (Missoula International Airport - Missoula, Montana). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from MSO to SEA.
A passenger named “Dan Cooper” boarded at PDX (Portland International Airport - Portland, Oregon). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from PDX to SEA.
Dan Cooper was not on the list of passengers that de-planed at SEA after the money/parachute exchange.
This situation evidently was un-nerving or a curiosity to the investigators (FBI).
The FBI contacted Leonard Kraut of the US Forest Service Smokejumper Training Center near Missoula, Montana and asked if a “Michael Cooper” had ever trained or jumped from there. This contact may have been made while the plane was enroute to Reno (my conjecture).
Kraut stayed up all night searching the school’s records and reported the next morning that no one named Michael Cooper had ever trained or jumped from there.
My conclusion from all of this is that the FBI was “all over” the smokejumper possibility beginning while the hijack was in progress (or within a few hours) and probably exhausted that avenue of investigation, before (or congruent with) moving to “sport parachuting” as a suspect pool.
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NORJAK Forum
Thanks for the responses on my “Help Me Sort This Out” question.
377,
Neither one is more accurate than the other…. They are just two published (or soon to be published) expressions of what happened during the “Sled-Drop test.”
georger,
It’s just an attempt to make some sense of the way two people express what should be the same situation, differently. I thank you for your response, I respect your intellect, but… you can still “piss me off” better than just about anybody on this board. But, I'll not let that deter me from my mission. It wasn’t a trick question. Just an attempt to discuss some issues (actually) relating to NORJACK and not let myself get involved in the “Jerry Springer” aspect of this thread.
All,
I spent some time doing (nuclear) accident/incident investigations (a long time ago) and, I am relatively sensitive to listening not only to WHAT someone says when relating an incident, but to HOW they say it as well. In fact, HOW they say it carries more weight with me than WHAT they say. To me the 2nd case is a VERY weak correlation to the pressure bump being an incident that would have been noticed/recalled by the crew. Basically, I agree with georger's response.
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377,
Neither one is more accurate than the other…. They are just two published (or soon to be published) expressions of what happened during the “Sled-Drop test.”
georger,
It’s just an attempt to make some sense of the way two people express what should be the same situation, differently. I thank you for your response, I respect your intellect, but… you can still “piss me off” better than just about anybody on this board. But, I'll not let that deter me from my mission. It wasn’t a trick question. Just an attempt to discuss some issues (actually) relating to NORJACK and not let myself get involved in the “Jerry Springer” aspect of this thread.
All,
I spent some time doing (nuclear) accident/incident investigations (a long time ago) and, I am relatively sensitive to listening not only to WHAT someone says when relating an incident, but to HOW they say it as well. In fact, HOW they say it carries more weight with me than WHAT they say. To me the 2nd case is a VERY weak correlation to the pressure bump being an incident that would have been noticed/recalled by the crew. Basically, I agree with georger's response.
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NORJAK Forum
georger 197
Quote
NOTE: This info may have already been posted.
I have been doing some research for a couple on “media types” and I stumbled across some articles that indicate (to me) that the “smokejumper” hypothesis was pretty thoroughly investigated (and dismissed) by the FBI as soon as a few hours after the hijacking.
Here’s the scoop:
A passenger named “Michael Cooper” boarded Flight 305 at MSO (Missoula International Airport - Missoula, Montana). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from MSO to SEA.
A passenger named “Dan Cooper” boarded at PDX (Portland International Airport - Portland, Oregon). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from PDX to SEA.
Dan Cooper was not on the list of passengers that de-planed at SEA after the money/parachute exchange.
This situation evidently was un-nerving or a curiosity to the investigators (FBI).
The FBI contacted Leonard Kraut of the US Forest Service Smokejumper Training Center near Missoula, Montana and asked if a “Michael Cooper” had ever trained or jumped from there. This contact may have been made while the plane was enroute to Reno (my conjecture).
Kraut stayed up all night searching the school’s records and reported the next morning that no one named Michael Cooper had ever trained or jumped from there.
My conclusion from all of this is that the FBI was “all over” the smokejumper possibility beginning while the hijack was in progress (or within a few hours) and probably exhausted that avenue of investigation, before (or congruent with) moving to “sport parachuting” as a suspect pool.
so did something special happen to Michael Cooper
we dont know about? He landed at SEA and that was
the end of it - yes?
georger 197
Quote
Thanks for the responses on my “Help Me Sort This Out” question.
377,
Neither one is more accurate than the other…. They are just two published (or soon to be published) expressions of what happened during the “Sled-Drop test.”
georger,
It’s just an attempt to make some sense of the way two people express what should be the same situation, differently. I thank you for your response, I respect your intellect, but… you can still “piss me off” better than just about anybody on this board. But, I'll not let that deter me from my mission. It wasn’t a trick question. Just an attempt to discuss some issues (actually) relating to NORJACK and not let myself get involved in the “Jerry Springer” aspect of this thread.
All,
I spent some time doing (nuclear) accident/incident investigations (a long time ago) and, I am relatively sensitive to listening not only to WHAT someone says when relating an incident, but to HOW they say it as well. In fact, HOW they say it carries more weight with me than WHAT they say. To me the 2nd case is a VERY weak correlation to the pressure bump being an incident that would have been noticed/recalled by the crew. Basically, I agree with georger's response.
It seems to me what matters most is what Harold
Anderson said, not what 2nd and 3rd parties say
he said or may have said.
We all know who and what the Jerry Springer aspect
of this forum has been for 450 pages. That anyone
would actually ignore and claim that these (attached) "ears"
hijacked flight 305, and get traction from that for
years, is stuff fit only for a Jerry Springer stage.
That has nothing to do with me. You worked with the party. You explain it!
[edit.] Let me be totaly candid about this. It is my right here to be -
I think there is something fundamentally wrong
about a bunch of otherwise intelligent adults
standing around 'discussing' whether "Ears Weber"
was Cooper or not for years, when at its core is
a basic physical description like the choice between whether a bowling ball and a comet are the same thing? The difference is that great.
So the whole debate must be over something else, like who can hold his breath longest or make the
biggest threats?
georger 197
QuoteJo, please show us exactly where it is said that the DNA is damaged enough to EXCLUDE anyone.
And you are conveniently forgetting that no macth for Duane's fingerprints was found. And please don't start on about Duane managing to get his fingerprints altered again... rather go back and read the discussions on that.
For most people, exclusions on DNA and fingerprints would be sufficient. But you expect the FBI to act as your personal PI agency and investigate every detail of Duane's life to make you happy, or satisifed or whatever. Why on earth should they waste their time investigating someone who preliminary investigations tell them is not a suspect?
People throw words around. DNA is one of Jo's
dropwords she knows nothing about but doesnt hesitate to drop.
But in Jo's early posts (pages 0-50) Jo relates an
astounding amount of material about Duane including a rather extensive synopsis of his criminal
and anti social background. It is more than enough
to catagorise Duane as an anti social personality.
Not surprisingly that profile does not fit the profile
for Cooper. However, it leaves no doubt Duane was
a seriously maladjusted person and perhaps even
a career criminal.
Jo also says in these early pages (once again) that
Duane was "seriously" ill with kidney disease (as
Pasternak reported). (Nobody in these early pages
bothers to ask Jo how a person seriously ill with
kidney disease hijacks and parachutes out of an airplane!) But Jo herself documents Duanes condition, then denies it a hundred+ pages later!
Jo claims Duane had a change of heart and ceased
him criminal ways, once he met and married her!
But reading Jo's description of Duane's anti social
background, could Duane abrutly stop being a
criminal, just because he became married? It's a legitimate question.
The implications are potentially profound as regards the whole attempt to fashion Duane Weber into
being Dan Cooper.
If you apply the very same metric Jo herself applies
in convincing everyone that Duane was a serious criminal and up to the job of being DB Cooper (in the early pages), if you extend Jo's same metric to
the post 1971 period of Duanes life right through
the period of Duanes marraige to Jo, well then does Jo become ensnared in her own petard, as it were?
Can you have one without having the other?
It's a fair question based on Jo's own words and descriptions.
What is the reality behind the Jerry Springer stage,
as Sluggo keeps calling it ? Was Duane criminally active after his marraige to Jo? Jo has always claimed 'no' but reading her own descriptions of
Duane's serious social maladjustment, one is forced
to wonder ... because Jo herself has set the stage
for it being a serious question and Sluggo worked for
years with Jo and should know something about this.
As far as I know... Yes!
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As I have said (publically and privately) many times before; "Jo, presented her case VERY poorly." One might say she destroyed her own case.
Yes, I did, and yes I do. But, I will not discuss those things told in confidence. That's just how I am.
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QuoteWas Duane criminally active after his marraige to Jo? Jo has always claimed 'no' but reading her own descriptions of Duane's serious social maladjustment, one is forced to wonder ... because Jo herself has set the stage for it being a serious question and Sluggo worked for years with Jo and should know something about this.
Yes, I did, and yes I do. But, I will not discuss those things told in confidence. That's just how I am.
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Orange1 0
QuoteJo claims Duane had a change of heart and ceased
him criminal ways, once he met and married her!
But reading Jo's description of Duane's anti social
background, could Duane abrutly stop being a
criminal, just because he became married? It's a legitimate question.
Jo has already confirmed he did not cease his criminal ways; i'm not sure how much he did, but we know from her that he at least stole coats etc from restaurants ...while she was with him. This might be "minor" compared to some of the other things he did, but if someone stole my coat i'd sure as hell lay theft charges.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
The stair rebound pressure bump on the 727 must have been more pronouced and would have been a real anomaly for a 727 aircrew, something they'd remember (as Georger points out) and obviously associate with something significant happening back there.
377
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