BigSky 2 #1726 May 21, 2008 Well he did admit to it on his deathbed.“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1727 May 21, 2008 QuoteWell he did admit to it on his deathbed. So all deathbed confessions are automatically true? It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21994224-2,00.htmlSkydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n467us 0 #1728 May 21, 2008 Seems like we are in recycle mode again... the DB Cooper case might very well stall without any NEW leads or evidence. I think Ckret's mission by reaching out to the public in late '07 was to shake loose anything "new". Today's question to Ckret: Have there been any (valid) NEW leads on the case since January 1st? If not, unless another confession emerges, this looks like it will go down as an unsolved mystery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #1729 May 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteWell he did admit to it on his deathbed. So all deathbed confessions are automatically true? It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then. That might explain where Duane got his parachute training. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #1730 May 22, 2008 If this thread dies....... I will have no one to argue with....... I'll go back to beating my wife....... You'll find her standing over my body with my Glock in her hand, asking: "How do I re-load this damned thing?" I'll be dead and It'll be all your fault. So, somebody make something up... keep this thread alive! Keep Sluggo Alive! Sluggo_Monster (stalled out, waiting for data) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #1731 May 22, 2008 QuoteSeems like we are in recycle mode again... the DB Cooper case might very well stall without any NEW leads or evidence. I think Ckret's mission by reaching out to the public in late '07 was to shake loose anything "new". Today's question to Ckret: Have there been any (valid) NEW leads on the case since January 1st? If not, unless another confession emerges, this looks like it will go down as an unsolved mystery. The old information that was re-hashed has been re-re-hashed. I think that the only new possibilities would be new DNA leads. If there was one, I don't think that the FBI would announce it here before announcing it to the intended suspect (and CNN shortly afterwards). The idea was for the forum to provide new info. That hasn't really happened. There were some strong candidates that were dismissed. Perhaps a DNA check of those people or, in the case of McCoy, a relative. Otherwise, I think this is finished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1732 May 22, 2008 There are easily 100 things that have not been discussed. I'll throw out one or two that people here might have good insight on, or opinions to keep Sluggo alive, or can say "it's in the old thread.." Cooper was very specific about a lot of things. He asked for the money in a knapsack? Why? Do hijackers commonly specify the money container? Probably not. Why didn't Cooper just say "200 thousand" Why did Cooper want it in a knapsack? He knew he was going to wear a parachute. So he's not going to wear it on his back. Is he going to wear the knapsack backwards? The straps might interfere with chute deployment. Was he going to try stuffing it in the chest pack, as we're told he tried with the money?" Was he going to hang it from himself? How did he know he'd get rope? Is that why he wanted two rigs? Is that why he had a knife? Did he have a knife or did he use the service cutlery? We're told he tried stuffing the money in the chest pack and it didn't fit. Who saw and decided on that interpretation of his actions? Was it Tina? Was she wrong if so? Did Cooper yell "Doesn't Fit, Must Acquit?" Did he ask for the knapsack because he knew he'd have to walk on the ground. Did he know the money would arrive in 20's and weigh about 21 lbs, so if he was walking on ground he'd want a knapsack? It's been suggested that he was a "novice" because he didn't ask for 100's and get a 5 lb load, for easier jumping. But passing 100's in 1971 might have been difficult right? Why ask for 100's for a lighter load if you can't pass them? he asked for negotiable currency? So he got exactly what he wanted? Why am I supposed to say he's Novice based on the money load? No use succeeding on the jump if you can't use the money. (people should reference the FBI pages on the Brinks robbery to understand how money passing was part of their undoing) So he asks for a knapsack. I don't think we've discussed at all what that means. We talked a lot about him asking for chest packs. I think our interpretation could be wrong. If you read the stew notes, the last line implies he was willing to live with just one. You could read that as saying he just wanted the chest pack as a money container during the jump. Especially if he tried to stuff the money in the chest pak as we've been told (unclear if true) Ckret has implied he's novice because he jumped with (or threw out) the bad chest. Well: tell me this guys. Night jump in those conditions. Does having a chest reserve or not mean much for the probability of success? I mean if the main fails he's gotta cutaway. Doesn't his base survival probability depend on whether the main deploys correctly...and any additional reliability by having a reserve, is probably minor. Look at the stats on main canopy deployment/failure, right? not opinions. Data/facts. Plus the d rings were wrong anyhow, right? Has everything I've mentioned here been resolved? And this is just one or two issues. There's 98 more., What's the timeline for when he started putting on the rig to the jump? Did Tina see him rig up? How smooth was he, how long did he take? Did he rig up in 15 minutes and jump? How long do guys go from nothing to rig on and jumping? don't you fiddle around? It's been implied that a novice getting a random rig will be laughable as he tries to get it on. Has it been resolved how long it took Cooper to rig up and when he started? Did he start opening the airstairs with the rig on or not? Did he have Tina showing him airstair operation while he was rigged, or not rigged? Did Tina see him with the rig on? When the transcript (Tina?) says he has the "knapsack around him" did she mean the rig? When Tina says she saw him tying something around his waist, was it rope only, or the money bag? Was the rig already on? Ckret is the gatekeeper for a lot of data. Do we think so far his interpretative style of data release, rather than raw data, is correct? Why are Ckret's interpretations any more acccurate than Agent H's. Could Ckret be just as wrong? 97 more questions to go :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1733 May 22, 2008 A lot of valid questions that requires data from the witnesses and or their statements. The interpretaion question is very good - Why would Ckrets's be any better than Himmelsbach's? I do know that Ckrets interpretations are NOT based on the knowledge of 1971 - because he argued with me about the FBI's printing system and how it was in 1971. He never has admitted he could be wrong. Well, he is wrong and if he were to talk to the people who developed the system he would know that what I told him is correct. Not all prints put into the system were checked against prior records unless there was a request or need to do so. I even went so far as to state one such case, but it was like pouring water over a ducks back - he is right and no one else knows anything (How old was he in 1971?). Sorry, Ckret - but what I just said is true. Until the FBI can swallow a little pride and admit to having made some mistakes this case will never be solved. I want Duane's old prints from his prior incarcerations compared to what they had on the FBI system in 1971. Not what they had on it after that date...but what was there in 1971 - you know were I am going on this.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #1734 May 22, 2008 Your question about the knapsack is very valid. So is the question I asked months ago about the satchel --- the media and the FBI referred to a satchel and now all you hear is briefcase. There is a hell of a lot of difference between a satchel and a briefcase. I have described to the FBI a satchel that was in Duane's possession up until shortly before he died - the colors and the straps and the works... It would be very nice to have the witness clarify this - if the FBI doesn't go back and ask these witnesses what it was - then they are dropping the ball again. Florence seems eager to talk to the media...except I can't get a valid phone number on her nor a valid address. Yet, others can find her...I thought I found her but the phone number is not in her name and the person who answered said they didn't know who she was...??? If I had a valid address I would mail her some pictures.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites n467us 0 #1735 May 22, 2008 Like I said... we're rehashing the same stuff again, and speculating toward conclusions that cannot be confirmed or denied without PROOF... My money is still on Duane Weber (based on suspects that have been identified at this point), but I find it doubtful that we will prove it without NEW evidence... WHATEVER HAPPENED to the mystery suspect ID'd on that "coast to coast" radio show??? Was that just a hoax or what?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dumstuntzz 0 #1736 May 22, 2008 "if the main fails he's gotta cutaway".... ummm the nb6/nb8 harness container does NOT have canopy releases, so not an option .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1737 May 22, 2008 Quote Did he know the money would arrive in 20's and weigh about 21 lbs, so if he was walking on ground he'd want a knapsack? It's been suggested that he was a "novice" because he didn't ask for 100's and get a 5 lb load, for easier jumping. But passing 100's in 1971 might have been difficult right? Why ask for 100's for a lighter load if you can't pass them? he asked for negotiable currency? So he got exactly what he wanted? Why am I supposed to say he's Novice based on the money load? No use succeeding on the jump if you can't use the money. (people should reference the FBI pages on the Brinks robbery to understand how money passing was part of their undoing) It's been noted a few times in these threads and is clear from the transcript (link posted a while back) that he did NOT ask for 20s and in fact very clearly indicated no preference for denomination. So your conclusions about either 20s or 100s are not valid. There's one of your 100 questions you can lay to rest Asking for a knapsack does make sense as you put it - no matter what the denomination was, it would certainly be easier for a long walk. This comment confuses me more: Quote Well: tell me this guys. Night jump in those conditions. Does having a chest reserve or not mean much for the probability of success? I mean if the main fails he's gotta cutaway. Doesn't his base survival probability depend on whether the main deploys correctly...and any additional reliability by having a reserve, is probably minor. Look at the stats on main canopy deployment/failure, right? not opinions. Data/facts. Well... of course having a reserve hugely increases your probability of survival if the main fails. What on earth do you mean "probably minor"?? If he pulled high, he also would have had more time to deal with any potential malfunction. That is of course assuming he pulled, assuming he would know what to do with a reserve. Not being able to cutaway from an NB6 would be a problem of course... but would he KNOW that? re if there is any idea how long it took him to gear up, what was seen etc... At 7:42pm the remark was made that he could not get the stairs down, before Tina went there. The comment about tying the knapsack round him was made at 7:48pm, the comment with that that she "thinks he will attempt a jump" seems to indicate that he had at least some gear on or ready to put on then. That's 24 minutes to when the "oscillation" was reported. 24 minutes is a very long time to gear up...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sluggo_Monster 0 #1738 May 22, 2008 dumbstuntzz, I’m a mega-whuffo, so let me say back to you what I think I’m hearing (reading): The NB6 does not provide for the ability to “cut away” (break free) from the main chute in case of a problem opening. (Streamer, tangled lines etc.) If so, this explains why the NB6 Harness did not come equipped with D-Rings. It is my understanding the “Sport Jumpers” of the era, had D-Rings installed on them. If so, why? Also, this would mean that the two chest packs, were equally useless, or do they have a harness of their own. Help me understand. The reason that I think this is important, is that it speaks to the issue of Cooper taking the “Training Rig” out with him and leaving behind the “good rig”. Many people use this argument as evidence that Cooper was a rank novice. When in fact, it may say nothing about him. Thanks in advance for all the help you can give me, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1739 May 22, 2008 Quote . The reason that I think this is important, is that it speaks to the issue of Cooper taking the “Training Rig” out with him and leaving behind the “good rig”. Many people use this argument as evidence that Cooper was a rank novice. When in fact, it may say nothing about him. Others have put forward the very reasonable (imo) argument that an experienced jumper would rather place their trust in a (rigger packed) reserve (NB6 rig) than a sport rig (who knows what is in it and who packed it) in a situation like this. But it still makes no sense that if you take another reserve with you you take one that doesn't work...? You can't cut away from a reserve/emergency chute because it's your last chance anyway - it is NOT a main. It is my understanding that the sport rigs referred to were people who had modified them to use as mains - but someone from that era can answer that properly.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1740 May 22, 2008 thanks for the insights dumstuntzz and orange1. You can see the problem Sluggo and I are having mentally. If a pilot jumps out of a burning plane with just a NB6, it's likely he'll live, and he's not considered novice. Cooper jumps out of a plane he hijacked, with just a NB6, that you can't cutaway anyhow, and it seems we want to make a decision about his skill level based on not finding one of the two chest packs on the plane afterwards. Read the last line of the stew notes at sluggo's site. I'm curious whether anyone agrees that he may have been saying "fine we'll land if you just get one chest chute, if that's what we're waiting on" The exact line is "If the case waiting for one chest chute go ahead + go down". Chest was written in afterwards, above the line. I'm wondering if the chests were all about requests for money containers, and somehow the mythology has created a whole back story about skill level implications, when that doesn't make sense. See what I mean? Do we all believe the claim that he tried stuffing the money in the chest he opened? Or maybe he tried stuffing it in the other chest? I guess we really don't know about this "doesn't fit" claim. If the door placard could blow out the open stairs, I suppose a lot of stuff could blow out? So missing chest pack could easily mean nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dumstuntzz 0 #1741 May 22, 2008 the nb6/nb8 was a pilot emergency parachute,intended only for emergency escape from an aircraft in distress .there were no d rings to attach a reserve because it(the nb6/nb8) WAS a reserve so to speak."Sport Jumpers " as you put it , are making intentional jumps from aircraft and use a main parachute AND a reserve which,would require a set of d rings on the front of the harness to attach a chest reserve(Unless you are using a piggy back which is a rig specifically made for sport jumping. on a piggy back(or tandem as they used to be called)the main and reserve are both on the back.) the chest packs were equally useless as they did not have their own harness. personally if cooper was jumper it would make more sense to me for him to have used the sport main because it had" d " rings on the harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #1742 May 22, 2008 I think the confusion is more over the absence of the dummy reserve than anything else. Could it blow out? Well... possibly, if it was right next to the door and had something that the wind could snatch - it is much easier to understand why the placard got blown out (or thrown out), it was right there. But why would he have moved the dummy reserve there by the door - and left the other chute insider where it was found later? The point is no-one knows if he knew the NB6 was a reserve or not. Personally I wouldn't know what to do with a pilot emergency rig... I'd jump what I was used to, a sport rig. He may have known both, or neither. I agree we just don't have enough information to know if he was a novice or not. The more interesting question to me revolves around the evidence we've had here that the rig he jumped, as given to him, would have been a very hard pull. If he couldn't even pull it, and had no reserve, he's dead. (Yes, reserves are also there for when you can't get your main open at all.) I personally think if he was a novice, the chances he survived the jump are very slim. If he wasn't a novice, we're out of suspects.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1743 May 22, 2008 I had another musing/thought, which may be applicable as we're reviewing the whole sport/military chest/back and knapsack issue. Once you strip away all the mythology and just look at the facts, Cooper complaining that "McChord is only 20 minutes away" when he was moaning about delays, says to me that he ASSUMED the chutes would come from McChord. Therefore he may have ASSUMED he would get military chutes? The thought may have never occurred to him that they might get them from a sport jumping center. Again it's guessing, but if I had to guess, it seems [to me] like he expected military. This whole "rejected military chutes" mythology has led to a lot of bad thinking? The closeness of a military base may have been one of the things that favored Seattle as the plane landing site. He had to land somewhere to get the money. His plan apparently required chute and fuel pickup also. Seattle had predictable access to chutes? (especially pilot reserve chutes). It's been said here that sport jumping was kind of like motorcycle clubs back then. Would Cooper have trusted the plan to the behaviors/capabilities of a motorcycle club? The stew notes show how concerned he was with time. Would you trust an air force base or a sport jumping club to provide chutes on some kind of demand timetable? I'm also wondering if Seattle was picked because it was an "easy" hijack site. Lower FBI presence? Surprising number of hijacks in that area in the future (for the population..assuming hijacks might be distributed geographically based on population density. probably not true though). re: hard pull maybe true. But Cossey packed it and believed that whoever was going to use it would use it and survive. So now we're saying that Cossey packed a chute that had a lower expectation of success. I'm not sure why I should believe that? Unless you're saying Cossey packed a chute such that trained experts would be successful, but novices less successful. Maybe. All that does is lower the probability of success by some factor. It doesn't guarantee death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nitrochute 2 #1744 May 23, 2008 RE : hard pull i will state this again for the 3 rd or fourth time,. .. ckret says cossey supplied an nb6 witha 28 ft canopy.this is significant because the nb6 is made for the much less bulky, and smaller 26 ft navy conical. an nb 6 is a tite container with a 26 ft canopy, with a 28 ft canopy, the pull IS HARD possibly next to imppossible. the contaiher had cones (this was before the widespread use of closing loops in any rig)rigs with cones have a harder pull than the same rig with loops. fact. i would like to get my hands on an old nb6 and stuff a 28 footer in there then put a fish scale on it.but i have not been able to locate one.but if i did we could prove wheteher it was possible for cooper to pull that ripcord. back in the day when the cooper caper happened it was NOT common practice to test the pull force with afish scale, so it is entirely feasible that ol coop got a rig that couldnt be deployed in freefall,despite what cosseys belief was.personally,as a rigger with 30 years experience , that 28 ft should NEVER have been put in the nb6 . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #1745 May 23, 2008 good thoughts nitro. I have zero knowledge compared to you, and am only trying to be as analytical as a scientist would, and hope it doesn't come off as being offensive. I have a thought. Do we know if the NB6+28 pack that Cossey did had been jumped before? or was Cooper the first to try that container+canopy? If Cossey or someone else jumped with it as packed for the nite Cooper got it, then we could reasonably assume Cooper would be able to get the pull (with some defactoring based on some assessment of whether he had the appropriate skill needed for the pull) Does anyone know if Cossey was asked whether that container + canopy had been jumped before, as packed? This would be better data then packing some other nb6+28? Since we don't know about mods (as mentioned before), it would have to be that container plus canopy, not whether someone knows of "any" nb6+28 had that had been jumped, or fish scaled, right? oh ps: we actually don't really know if the placard should have blown out. We don't know the attach method, whether Cooper removed it, or even if Flight 305 still had it's placard when it landed. I haven't heard enough to understand whether it's possible for it to have been removed easily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maurico 0 #1746 May 23, 2008 Are there any circumstances in which you or anybody else would stuff a 28ft canopy into a NB-6 and actually expect to use it? Forgive my ignorance, but why is the pull so hard using this set up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guru312 0 #1747 May 23, 2008 QuoteAre there any circumstances in which you or anybody else would stuff a 28ft canopy into a NB-6 and actually expect to use it? I thought you'd never ask! Yes, there are circumstances when this would be done. I did it myself for 5-6 years when flying jumpers in my Cessna 182. Lots of crazy stuff happens in airplanes from which people are going to jump. I packed the rig myself on purpose. [I have a chest and back senior rigger rating.] I wanted a larger canopy, a tight and rather thin container and a "more secure" container. Over the years, I heard/read about many in-flight emergencies or very bad accidents where ripcords got pulled---mostly belly mounted reserve openings, I admit. My reasoning was that I'd rather have a hard pull after a statistically unlikely emergency event than I would with some freaked out person grabbing at me as they crawled out the door. Packing a 28 ft canopy into an NB6 container was slow, difficult work but worth the effort...at least in my mind at the time. Lots of stuffing and poking of the material with a wooden packing stick. My guess is that Cossey picked up a rig used by one of the jump pilots at the DZ and included it with the rigs sent to Cooper. I doubt I'm the only pilot/rigger who packed an emergency rig that way.Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packerboy 3 #1748 May 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteWell he did admit to it on his deathbed. So all deathbed confessions are automatically true? It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21994224-2,00.html I believe it. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #1749 May 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Well he did admit to it on his deathbed. So all deathbed confessions are automatically true? It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21994224-2,00.html I believe it. Any of those aliens ever made a jet jump? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packerboy 3 #1750 May 23, 2008 They'd probably end up looking like your avatar if they did! -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 Next Page 70 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Sluggo_Monster 0 #1730 May 22, 2008 If this thread dies....... I will have no one to argue with....... I'll go back to beating my wife....... You'll find her standing over my body with my Glock in her hand, asking: "How do I re-load this damned thing?" I'll be dead and It'll be all your fault. So, somebody make something up... keep this thread alive! Keep Sluggo Alive! Sluggo_Monster (stalled out, waiting for data) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #1731 May 22, 2008 QuoteSeems like we are in recycle mode again... the DB Cooper case might very well stall without any NEW leads or evidence. I think Ckret's mission by reaching out to the public in late '07 was to shake loose anything "new". Today's question to Ckret: Have there been any (valid) NEW leads on the case since January 1st? If not, unless another confession emerges, this looks like it will go down as an unsolved mystery. The old information that was re-hashed has been re-re-hashed. I think that the only new possibilities would be new DNA leads. If there was one, I don't think that the FBI would announce it here before announcing it to the intended suspect (and CNN shortly afterwards). The idea was for the forum to provide new info. That hasn't really happened. There were some strong candidates that were dismissed. Perhaps a DNA check of those people or, in the case of McCoy, a relative. Otherwise, I think this is finished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1732 May 22, 2008 There are easily 100 things that have not been discussed. I'll throw out one or two that people here might have good insight on, or opinions to keep Sluggo alive, or can say "it's in the old thread.." Cooper was very specific about a lot of things. He asked for the money in a knapsack? Why? Do hijackers commonly specify the money container? Probably not. Why didn't Cooper just say "200 thousand" Why did Cooper want it in a knapsack? He knew he was going to wear a parachute. So he's not going to wear it on his back. Is he going to wear the knapsack backwards? The straps might interfere with chute deployment. Was he going to try stuffing it in the chest pack, as we're told he tried with the money?" Was he going to hang it from himself? How did he know he'd get rope? Is that why he wanted two rigs? Is that why he had a knife? Did he have a knife or did he use the service cutlery? We're told he tried stuffing the money in the chest pack and it didn't fit. Who saw and decided on that interpretation of his actions? Was it Tina? Was she wrong if so? Did Cooper yell "Doesn't Fit, Must Acquit?" Did he ask for the knapsack because he knew he'd have to walk on the ground. Did he know the money would arrive in 20's and weigh about 21 lbs, so if he was walking on ground he'd want a knapsack? It's been suggested that he was a "novice" because he didn't ask for 100's and get a 5 lb load, for easier jumping. But passing 100's in 1971 might have been difficult right? Why ask for 100's for a lighter load if you can't pass them? he asked for negotiable currency? So he got exactly what he wanted? Why am I supposed to say he's Novice based on the money load? No use succeeding on the jump if you can't use the money. (people should reference the FBI pages on the Brinks robbery to understand how money passing was part of their undoing) So he asks for a knapsack. I don't think we've discussed at all what that means. We talked a lot about him asking for chest packs. I think our interpretation could be wrong. If you read the stew notes, the last line implies he was willing to live with just one. You could read that as saying he just wanted the chest pack as a money container during the jump. Especially if he tried to stuff the money in the chest pak as we've been told (unclear if true) Ckret has implied he's novice because he jumped with (or threw out) the bad chest. Well: tell me this guys. Night jump in those conditions. Does having a chest reserve or not mean much for the probability of success? I mean if the main fails he's gotta cutaway. Doesn't his base survival probability depend on whether the main deploys correctly...and any additional reliability by having a reserve, is probably minor. Look at the stats on main canopy deployment/failure, right? not opinions. Data/facts. Plus the d rings were wrong anyhow, right? Has everything I've mentioned here been resolved? And this is just one or two issues. There's 98 more., What's the timeline for when he started putting on the rig to the jump? Did Tina see him rig up? How smooth was he, how long did he take? Did he rig up in 15 minutes and jump? How long do guys go from nothing to rig on and jumping? don't you fiddle around? It's been implied that a novice getting a random rig will be laughable as he tries to get it on. Has it been resolved how long it took Cooper to rig up and when he started? Did he start opening the airstairs with the rig on or not? Did he have Tina showing him airstair operation while he was rigged, or not rigged? Did Tina see him with the rig on? When the transcript (Tina?) says he has the "knapsack around him" did she mean the rig? When Tina says she saw him tying something around his waist, was it rope only, or the money bag? Was the rig already on? Ckret is the gatekeeper for a lot of data. Do we think so far his interpretative style of data release, rather than raw data, is correct? Why are Ckret's interpretations any more acccurate than Agent H's. Could Ckret be just as wrong? 97 more questions to go :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1733 May 22, 2008 A lot of valid questions that requires data from the witnesses and or their statements. The interpretaion question is very good - Why would Ckrets's be any better than Himmelsbach's? I do know that Ckrets interpretations are NOT based on the knowledge of 1971 - because he argued with me about the FBI's printing system and how it was in 1971. He never has admitted he could be wrong. Well, he is wrong and if he were to talk to the people who developed the system he would know that what I told him is correct. Not all prints put into the system were checked against prior records unless there was a request or need to do so. I even went so far as to state one such case, but it was like pouring water over a ducks back - he is right and no one else knows anything (How old was he in 1971?). Sorry, Ckret - but what I just said is true. Until the FBI can swallow a little pride and admit to having made some mistakes this case will never be solved. I want Duane's old prints from his prior incarcerations compared to what they had on the FBI system in 1971. Not what they had on it after that date...but what was there in 1971 - you know were I am going on this.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #1734 May 22, 2008 Your question about the knapsack is very valid. So is the question I asked months ago about the satchel --- the media and the FBI referred to a satchel and now all you hear is briefcase. There is a hell of a lot of difference between a satchel and a briefcase. I have described to the FBI a satchel that was in Duane's possession up until shortly before he died - the colors and the straps and the works... It would be very nice to have the witness clarify this - if the FBI doesn't go back and ask these witnesses what it was - then they are dropping the ball again. Florence seems eager to talk to the media...except I can't get a valid phone number on her nor a valid address. Yet, others can find her...I thought I found her but the phone number is not in her name and the person who answered said they didn't know who she was...??? If I had a valid address I would mail her some pictures.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n467us 0 #1735 May 22, 2008 Like I said... we're rehashing the same stuff again, and speculating toward conclusions that cannot be confirmed or denied without PROOF... My money is still on Duane Weber (based on suspects that have been identified at this point), but I find it doubtful that we will prove it without NEW evidence... WHATEVER HAPPENED to the mystery suspect ID'd on that "coast to coast" radio show??? Was that just a hoax or what?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dumstuntzz 0 #1736 May 22, 2008 "if the main fails he's gotta cutaway".... ummm the nb6/nb8 harness container does NOT have canopy releases, so not an option .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1737 May 22, 2008 Quote Did he know the money would arrive in 20's and weigh about 21 lbs, so if he was walking on ground he'd want a knapsack? It's been suggested that he was a "novice" because he didn't ask for 100's and get a 5 lb load, for easier jumping. But passing 100's in 1971 might have been difficult right? Why ask for 100's for a lighter load if you can't pass them? he asked for negotiable currency? So he got exactly what he wanted? Why am I supposed to say he's Novice based on the money load? No use succeeding on the jump if you can't use the money. (people should reference the FBI pages on the Brinks robbery to understand how money passing was part of their undoing) It's been noted a few times in these threads and is clear from the transcript (link posted a while back) that he did NOT ask for 20s and in fact very clearly indicated no preference for denomination. So your conclusions about either 20s or 100s are not valid. There's one of your 100 questions you can lay to rest Asking for a knapsack does make sense as you put it - no matter what the denomination was, it would certainly be easier for a long walk. This comment confuses me more: Quote Well: tell me this guys. Night jump in those conditions. Does having a chest reserve or not mean much for the probability of success? I mean if the main fails he's gotta cutaway. Doesn't his base survival probability depend on whether the main deploys correctly...and any additional reliability by having a reserve, is probably minor. Look at the stats on main canopy deployment/failure, right? not opinions. Data/facts. Well... of course having a reserve hugely increases your probability of survival if the main fails. What on earth do you mean "probably minor"?? If he pulled high, he also would have had more time to deal with any potential malfunction. That is of course assuming he pulled, assuming he would know what to do with a reserve. Not being able to cutaway from an NB6 would be a problem of course... but would he KNOW that? re if there is any idea how long it took him to gear up, what was seen etc... At 7:42pm the remark was made that he could not get the stairs down, before Tina went there. The comment about tying the knapsack round him was made at 7:48pm, the comment with that that she "thinks he will attempt a jump" seems to indicate that he had at least some gear on or ready to put on then. That's 24 minutes to when the "oscillation" was reported. 24 minutes is a very long time to gear up...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #1738 May 22, 2008 dumbstuntzz, I’m a mega-whuffo, so let me say back to you what I think I’m hearing (reading): The NB6 does not provide for the ability to “cut away” (break free) from the main chute in case of a problem opening. (Streamer, tangled lines etc.) If so, this explains why the NB6 Harness did not come equipped with D-Rings. It is my understanding the “Sport Jumpers” of the era, had D-Rings installed on them. If so, why? Also, this would mean that the two chest packs, were equally useless, or do they have a harness of their own. Help me understand. The reason that I think this is important, is that it speaks to the issue of Cooper taking the “Training Rig” out with him and leaving behind the “good rig”. Many people use this argument as evidence that Cooper was a rank novice. When in fact, it may say nothing about him. Thanks in advance for all the help you can give me, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1739 May 22, 2008 Quote . The reason that I think this is important, is that it speaks to the issue of Cooper taking the “Training Rig” out with him and leaving behind the “good rig”. Many people use this argument as evidence that Cooper was a rank novice. When in fact, it may say nothing about him. Others have put forward the very reasonable (imo) argument that an experienced jumper would rather place their trust in a (rigger packed) reserve (NB6 rig) than a sport rig (who knows what is in it and who packed it) in a situation like this. But it still makes no sense that if you take another reserve with you you take one that doesn't work...? You can't cut away from a reserve/emergency chute because it's your last chance anyway - it is NOT a main. It is my understanding that the sport rigs referred to were people who had modified them to use as mains - but someone from that era can answer that properly.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1740 May 22, 2008 thanks for the insights dumstuntzz and orange1. You can see the problem Sluggo and I are having mentally. If a pilot jumps out of a burning plane with just a NB6, it's likely he'll live, and he's not considered novice. Cooper jumps out of a plane he hijacked, with just a NB6, that you can't cutaway anyhow, and it seems we want to make a decision about his skill level based on not finding one of the two chest packs on the plane afterwards. Read the last line of the stew notes at sluggo's site. I'm curious whether anyone agrees that he may have been saying "fine we'll land if you just get one chest chute, if that's what we're waiting on" The exact line is "If the case waiting for one chest chute go ahead + go down". Chest was written in afterwards, above the line. I'm wondering if the chests were all about requests for money containers, and somehow the mythology has created a whole back story about skill level implications, when that doesn't make sense. See what I mean? Do we all believe the claim that he tried stuffing the money in the chest he opened? Or maybe he tried stuffing it in the other chest? I guess we really don't know about this "doesn't fit" claim. If the door placard could blow out the open stairs, I suppose a lot of stuff could blow out? So missing chest pack could easily mean nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dumstuntzz 0 #1741 May 22, 2008 the nb6/nb8 was a pilot emergency parachute,intended only for emergency escape from an aircraft in distress .there were no d rings to attach a reserve because it(the nb6/nb8) WAS a reserve so to speak."Sport Jumpers " as you put it , are making intentional jumps from aircraft and use a main parachute AND a reserve which,would require a set of d rings on the front of the harness to attach a chest reserve(Unless you are using a piggy back which is a rig specifically made for sport jumping. on a piggy back(or tandem as they used to be called)the main and reserve are both on the back.) the chest packs were equally useless as they did not have their own harness. personally if cooper was jumper it would make more sense to me for him to have used the sport main because it had" d " rings on the harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #1742 May 22, 2008 I think the confusion is more over the absence of the dummy reserve than anything else. Could it blow out? Well... possibly, if it was right next to the door and had something that the wind could snatch - it is much easier to understand why the placard got blown out (or thrown out), it was right there. But why would he have moved the dummy reserve there by the door - and left the other chute insider where it was found later? The point is no-one knows if he knew the NB6 was a reserve or not. Personally I wouldn't know what to do with a pilot emergency rig... I'd jump what I was used to, a sport rig. He may have known both, or neither. I agree we just don't have enough information to know if he was a novice or not. The more interesting question to me revolves around the evidence we've had here that the rig he jumped, as given to him, would have been a very hard pull. If he couldn't even pull it, and had no reserve, he's dead. (Yes, reserves are also there for when you can't get your main open at all.) I personally think if he was a novice, the chances he survived the jump are very slim. If he wasn't a novice, we're out of suspects.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1743 May 22, 2008 I had another musing/thought, which may be applicable as we're reviewing the whole sport/military chest/back and knapsack issue. Once you strip away all the mythology and just look at the facts, Cooper complaining that "McChord is only 20 minutes away" when he was moaning about delays, says to me that he ASSUMED the chutes would come from McChord. Therefore he may have ASSUMED he would get military chutes? The thought may have never occurred to him that they might get them from a sport jumping center. Again it's guessing, but if I had to guess, it seems [to me] like he expected military. This whole "rejected military chutes" mythology has led to a lot of bad thinking? The closeness of a military base may have been one of the things that favored Seattle as the plane landing site. He had to land somewhere to get the money. His plan apparently required chute and fuel pickup also. Seattle had predictable access to chutes? (especially pilot reserve chutes). It's been said here that sport jumping was kind of like motorcycle clubs back then. Would Cooper have trusted the plan to the behaviors/capabilities of a motorcycle club? The stew notes show how concerned he was with time. Would you trust an air force base or a sport jumping club to provide chutes on some kind of demand timetable? I'm also wondering if Seattle was picked because it was an "easy" hijack site. Lower FBI presence? Surprising number of hijacks in that area in the future (for the population..assuming hijacks might be distributed geographically based on population density. probably not true though). re: hard pull maybe true. But Cossey packed it and believed that whoever was going to use it would use it and survive. So now we're saying that Cossey packed a chute that had a lower expectation of success. I'm not sure why I should believe that? Unless you're saying Cossey packed a chute such that trained experts would be successful, but novices less successful. Maybe. All that does is lower the probability of success by some factor. It doesn't guarantee death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrochute 2 #1744 May 23, 2008 RE : hard pull i will state this again for the 3 rd or fourth time,. .. ckret says cossey supplied an nb6 witha 28 ft canopy.this is significant because the nb6 is made for the much less bulky, and smaller 26 ft navy conical. an nb 6 is a tite container with a 26 ft canopy, with a 28 ft canopy, the pull IS HARD possibly next to imppossible. the contaiher had cones (this was before the widespread use of closing loops in any rig)rigs with cones have a harder pull than the same rig with loops. fact. i would like to get my hands on an old nb6 and stuff a 28 footer in there then put a fish scale on it.but i have not been able to locate one.but if i did we could prove wheteher it was possible for cooper to pull that ripcord. back in the day when the cooper caper happened it was NOT common practice to test the pull force with afish scale, so it is entirely feasible that ol coop got a rig that couldnt be deployed in freefall,despite what cosseys belief was.personally,as a rigger with 30 years experience , that 28 ft should NEVER have been put in the nb6 . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #1745 May 23, 2008 good thoughts nitro. I have zero knowledge compared to you, and am only trying to be as analytical as a scientist would, and hope it doesn't come off as being offensive. I have a thought. Do we know if the NB6+28 pack that Cossey did had been jumped before? or was Cooper the first to try that container+canopy? If Cossey or someone else jumped with it as packed for the nite Cooper got it, then we could reasonably assume Cooper would be able to get the pull (with some defactoring based on some assessment of whether he had the appropriate skill needed for the pull) Does anyone know if Cossey was asked whether that container + canopy had been jumped before, as packed? This would be better data then packing some other nb6+28? Since we don't know about mods (as mentioned before), it would have to be that container plus canopy, not whether someone knows of "any" nb6+28 had that had been jumped, or fish scaled, right? oh ps: we actually don't really know if the placard should have blown out. We don't know the attach method, whether Cooper removed it, or even if Flight 305 still had it's placard when it landed. I haven't heard enough to understand whether it's possible for it to have been removed easily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maurico 0 #1746 May 23, 2008 Are there any circumstances in which you or anybody else would stuff a 28ft canopy into a NB-6 and actually expect to use it? Forgive my ignorance, but why is the pull so hard using this set up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guru312 0 #1747 May 23, 2008 QuoteAre there any circumstances in which you or anybody else would stuff a 28ft canopy into a NB-6 and actually expect to use it? I thought you'd never ask! Yes, there are circumstances when this would be done. I did it myself for 5-6 years when flying jumpers in my Cessna 182. Lots of crazy stuff happens in airplanes from which people are going to jump. I packed the rig myself on purpose. [I have a chest and back senior rigger rating.] I wanted a larger canopy, a tight and rather thin container and a "more secure" container. Over the years, I heard/read about many in-flight emergencies or very bad accidents where ripcords got pulled---mostly belly mounted reserve openings, I admit. My reasoning was that I'd rather have a hard pull after a statistically unlikely emergency event than I would with some freaked out person grabbing at me as they crawled out the door. Packing a 28 ft canopy into an NB6 container was slow, difficult work but worth the effort...at least in my mind at the time. Lots of stuffing and poking of the material with a wooden packing stick. My guess is that Cossey picked up a rig used by one of the jump pilots at the DZ and included it with the rigs sent to Cooper. I doubt I'm the only pilot/rigger who packed an emergency rig that way.Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #1748 May 23, 2008 QuoteQuoteWell he did admit to it on his deathbed. So all deathbed confessions are automatically true? It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21994224-2,00.html I believe it. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #1749 May 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Well he did admit to it on his deathbed. So all deathbed confessions are automatically true? It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21994224-2,00.html I believe it. Any of those aliens ever made a jet jump? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #1750 May 23, 2008 They'd probably end up looking like your avatar if they did! -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
