DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Just exploring the possibilities Ckret has suggested about Seattle first choice DZ.

After landing in Reno, they explored the surrounding area a lot with cops and dog (The GSD dog's name in the Cronkite video was "Rommel" ...(really!))

I was wondering: what if the plan was never to jump, just fake a jump.

Cooper runs down the stairs at takeoff. Cooper's timeline guaranteed 305 would takeoff in the dark at Seattle. If he wanted the stairs down at takeoff, he could get away, and have them think he's still on the plane. Remember he put everyone in the cockpit at takeoff correct? (This needs verification)

So then he's stuck.

Maybe Plan B From Outer Space was that he really had to jump, and he had never planned on jumping. His other actions all seem consistent with a real jump never being part of the plan. Just a fake jump so they wouldn't know.

See I'm wondering why the police thought about the "run and hide" scenario on landing at Reno, but not as a plan in Seattle. If it's possible on landing, it's possible on takeoff. (unless the pilot nixes your plan).

Maybe that's why Cooper argued so much with Scott et. al. on the stairs-at-takeoff problem? He had to finally give in because he realized he maybe was wrong?

Edit: this theory precludes some of the "intelligence" aspects of stair deployment knowledge. If he's in Plan B mode, maybe he just lucked out. His prior knowledge may just have been about enough info on plane altitude and speed to make a jump plausible, assuming stairs down at takeoff. So his knowledge could have been limited, then future luck made him seem more knowledgable.

Edit: It also solves the problem of how Cooper acquired the rarified knowledge of inflight deployment. He wouldn't have to with this theory, because his plan didn't require the rarified knowledge.

Edit: It might make the knapsack request more understandable. If he's not really jumping, dealing with money in a knapsack is easier. In fact, then the primary issue is how to run away with the money on ground. So knapsack request makes sense. If jumping, the primary problem is money control on jet exit, which knapsack doesn't help? (with chute on)

[Ckret 0]

-They didn't think the stairs would be destroyed upon landing, just damaged to the point they could not be secured for takeoff.

-Cooper had no one on the ground waiting for him, he did not demand a flight path. To land at a specific drop zone to meet up with someone you have to coordinate that effort. Telling the pilots to fly to Mexico by way of Reno from Seatac isn't going to work.

[snowmman 3]

okay, I think you're responding to an earlier post, cause the subject doesn't match your replies, which are good thoughts/info, though.

I think the replies actually help strengthen my Plan Was No Jump theory?

There is no evidence that says the plan was to jump.
Any thoughts/evidence to contradict that?

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-They didn't think the stairs would be destroyed upon landing, just damaged to the point they could not be secured for takeoff.

-Cooper had no one on the ground waiting for him, he did not demand a flight path. To land at a specific drop zone to meet up with someone you have to coordinate that effort. Telling the pilots to fly to Mexico by way of Reno from Seatac isn't going to work.

[Orange1 0]

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I spoke with Galen Cook several yrs ago and recently. This is his 3rd or 4th suspect.

Jo, was Duane ever one of his suspects?

Personally, if he is going through suspects... it tells me that maybe what he is doing is looking for a suspect that fits the crime. He finds a suspect that looks interesting, then finds something that doesn't check out, then looks for someone else. This is kind of the way I guess the cops or FBI would do it, until they find a suspect that fits the crime. This is a very different thing from trying to make the crime fit a particular suspect.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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From hs actions and statements I think he wanted to jump just after wheels up. He had the chute on for takeoff and he wanted the stairs down and locked for takeoff.

When Cooper learned the stairs couldn't be down for takeoff he had to go to plan B, which he didn't have. Thinking on the fly put him jumping in an area he didn't plan for.

Ckret,

Let’s talk about an “Early Jump”

Attached are 8 maps that show what the ground characteristics and terrain would be like in 4 NM increments from 0 to 32 NM out of SEA.

If he jumped in the first 4 NM he would have landed in City or the Puget Sound. (1 - First 4 NM City and Water RED.jpg)

If he jumped between 4 NM and 8 NM he would have landed in Puget Sound or City (Federal Way). (2 - 4 to 8 NM Water & City RED.jpg)

If he jumped between 8 NM and 12 NM he would have landed in City (Federal Way or the Port of Tacoma boat docks. (3- 8 to12 NM City and Boat Docks RED.jpg)

If he had jumped between 12 NM and 16 NM out he would have landed in City (4 - 12 to 16 NM Plane & City RED.jpg). NOTE: The purple dot to the right and above center is where the plane reporter at 03:42 z. “We now have an aft stair light on.”

If he had jumped between 16 NM and 20 NM he would have landed in City (Spanaway) or McChord AFB, or maybe Spanaway Lake. He would have been in the traffic Pattern of McChord and praying all aircraft saw him. (5 - McChord and City16 to 20 NM RED.jpg)

If he had jumped between 20 NM and 24 NM he would have landed on McChord AFB property or Fort Lewis property. Which would make sense if he was Galen Cook’s mystery guest. (6 - 20 to 24 NM McChord & Ft Lewis RED.jpg)

If he had landed between 24 NM and 28 NM out he would have landed on Fort Lewis property. See above. (7 - 24 to 28 NM All Ft Lewis RED.jpg)

And finally, if he had landed between 28 nm and 32 nm out, he would have landed on Ft. Lewis property or some rural forrest in Thurston County.

So, how early do you think he was going to jump, before he was foiled by that stubborn Aft stair door?

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[BigSky 2]

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Well he did admit to it on his deathbed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So all deathbed confessions are automatically true?
It will interest you all to know, in that instance, that there most definitely were aliens at Roswell then.

That's an outstanding job of taking a quote out of context. Someone suggested that Weber might not have wanted to be connected with Cooper. Someone else pointed out that he made a deathbed confession. Where in the hell did ANYONE suggest that what he said was true or false.

Way to go, Orange. There's nothing like skewing the hell out of a statement to mock it. Kicked any dogs today?

Exactly!! Itdiver said something about Duane maybe wanting his past to be left alone and that is why he kept it so secret. What I was implying was if he wanted it left alone so bad then why de he admit to it on his death bed........and if I have to spell it out further then what I am implying is he did want someone to look into it and that is why he said something on his death bed

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[BigSky 2]

Sorry my post is a little late.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[snowmman 3]

These were issued weekly. I have the whole week for 11/22/71 to 11/28/71 with a legend description for the notations on the map.

I can't upload even the 11/24/71 because of size
limitations. I'll attach a screen shot of the Portland area.

It gives us wind direction and speed at Portland if you know how to read the notations. The wind comes from the direction of the "feathers" on the wind indicator "arrow". The speed is indicated by the number of barbs on the arrow
reference:
http://weather.about.com/od/b/g/Barbs.htm

There is one full barb, so I'm reading 10 knots from the South, at Portland.

This would be good for estimating canopy drift if Cooper was spotting from the rear of the plane looking for lights or something near Portland.

Notably, the wind is not from the East, blowing towards the money find location.

If people have better data sources for wind at PDX 11/24/71 that would be nice.

The full weather map showed the 36/51 min/max (edited: fixed typo on temps) temp range for Portland.

Also of note is the precipitation patterns throughout the US that day. Maybe Cooper might have said "Mexico" solely because the only clear weather in the country from WA that day was going South or Southeast (not North or East)

The weekly report also noted on 11/22/71 there was "several inches of snow in N.E." (new england?)

[Albert18 0]

Are the tadpoles the feathers?

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

I think he was going to bail out as soon as he was comfortable in doing so. On the assumption he was a load master during his military service, he would have a good understanding when he could jump based on the cargo he threw out of planes.

I also think there was a part of him that didn't think the plan would work at all. When he got the money the stews said he changed and acted suprised and child like. I take that as, "oh shit, i can't believe this stupid ass plan worked, they actually gave me $200,000 dollars."

Soon after the reality sets in, "Oh damn!!! now I have to really jump from this plane."

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Sluggo,
I also think there was a part of him that didn't think the plan would work at all. When he got the money the stews said he changed and acted suprised and child like. I take that as, "oh shit, i can't believe this stupid ass plan worked, they actually gave me $200,000 dollars."
Soon after the reality sets in, "Oh damn!!! now I have to really jump from this plane."

Ckret,

First, I respect you and I respect what you do.

Second, I’m committed to making a difference in the final resolution of NORJAK. That means you and I have the same goals. We’re on the same team. We’re like family, in that, we’re thrown together and have to figure out how to get along.

So, with all due respect, I’m going to treat you like family, like I’m your ‘ol Uncle Sluggo. And as your Uncle Sluggo, I’m gonna tell you this:

What you just said makes about as much sense as a soup sandwich!

If he had not been elated when he got the money, would that mean he expected the plan to work? And if he expected the plan to work, after the reality set in, did he then think; “Oh wonderful, now I get to jump out of this airplane?

I just don’t see any correlation between being elated when one of the major elements of the crime came together and his expectation of success. He was just handed $200,000, did they expect him to cry?

I don’t know when the accepted FBI profile of Cooper went from a very clever crook, to a dufus who happened to hit the hijacking lottery. But, I suspect it is more related to how the FBI (collectively) feels about themselves, than what they know about Cooper. The clock is ticking, the people who know are dropping like flies. Take a bold step and go back to thinking Cooper was clever, clever enough to plan the crime, execute the crime, and escape from justice.

I get sick of people who make Cooper out like some kind of hero. He was a criminal. But, sometimes criminals are smart (or well connected). I think he was smart enough to set parameters that excluded all routes other than V-23. I think he knew where he was when he jumped. I have no idea if he survived or not.

A few weeks ago, you said you would release more info. PLEASE do that. Let these amateurs have a go at it with the same advantages the FBI has had for almost 37 years. You don’t know, maybe we’ll be like those infinite number of monkeys, with an infinite number of typewriters… Maybe we’ll write some Shakespeare.

Now, having said that, let’s go get a beer.

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Canopus 0]

Skyjack71,

Can you help us amateur followers and just post all the verifiable evidence that Duane was connected with this case?

I don't mean stories...ie "he/she said" but all the evidence that is verifiable that ties Duane to this case? This would be extremely helpful for those of us "amateurs" interested in this case. Maybe we could help verify and solve!

I was hoping you could LIST all the verifiable evidence you have, as opposed to essay format. This would cut to the chase as we're all busy.
Thanks for all the help.

Your pal

Canopus

[happythoughts 0]

Job had patience, but he doesn't post here.

Civilization is such a thin veneer.

[mccurley 0]

wheels up as an expresion means wheels off the ground, not necessarily retracted.

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[skyjack71 0]

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Skyjack71,
I was hoping you could LIST all the verifiable evidence you have, as opposed to essay format. This would cut to the chase as we're all busy.

Only an attorney would ask a question like that.

What verifiable evidence do you have other than he said, she said and the way he lived his life....when using circumstancial evidence to convict.

At least I held the ticket in my hand and the stub and saw the money bag (yes, it was the money bag).

His familiarity with WA without a map, his quick exit from Co after our trip and the money found in 1980, which he knew was worthless before he read the paper.

His making arrangement to go back to the safety of the South one day after the article appeared in the papers about Coopers Money being found in 1980.

His background and then oh yes - she said, I said and he said. Exactly how else does one find the truth and verify what other's have told. Just like a court of law Mr. Attorney - you build a case...but then you aren't a criminal attorney, right.

Other circumstancial evidence, such as wife's convenient 3 month absence from Nov of 71 to Feb of 72. What the wife told me - you can't put her on a stand, but I can prove things she said.

Photo's provided by the wife - unusual photos that put the glasses on him and in a brown suit with his hair dyed just a short time before the hijacking. Admission by her that he had contacts and business in WA.

His knowledge of WA without a map. His strange side trips (without me) during this trip.

The things he did on that trip and things he showed me and of course "he said " but, (he isn't here to vouch for me).

His strange behaviour when the books came out in the early 80's, growing a mustache and letting his hair grow out. The fact that he pointed out the place that McCoy was killed - he blamed himself for his death.

His familiarity with the Boeings and knowing the details of the plane and having access to those details.
Oh, that would be a "he said" also since this was told to me by his brother.

The fact that they purchased 2 new cars in 1972 - but he didn't make any money the yr.before.

He has been a closer match to the composites than any other suspect.
Including the composites that never made the media in 1971.

The artist who told Doug Pasternak about something that he was not sucessful in portraying in the composites... and my knowing what it was without be told.

The witnesses have never had access to photo's that would help them to say yes that is the man or definitely not (the photos that have been show to the stewardesses have been shown with a bias toward the subject of the person presenting the photos and without an age at photo time statement). Also there are photo's I have NEVER made public...to be seen only in a controled situation to any witness.

The tie - may not be Cooper's tie.

The fingerprint system and the fact that Duane was in association with and in the same prison as others who changed their prints in the FBI's "infallible" system.

The FBI has NEVER gone to the archives to search for the old prints to compare them - which shoud have been done when Duane came up as a suspect.

The fact that a witness has identified him as being in Wa. the night before the crime - another item the FBI has somewhere in their vast file - or as agent Hope said they would have disposed of the registration after checking it out. Duh!

The fact that the report read to me over the phone by a local agent regarding the DNA delivery said NOTHING about DNA only that the prints did not match. What happened to the actual report regaring Duane's DNA.

Fact - that DNA was not known in 1971 and that tie was handled many times without gloves and therefore contaminated. The FBI
found mutiple particial DNA and have been very vague on this.

Fact - they did not ask for Duane's DNA until 2003 and they DID not examine that DNA until late 2007 and early 2008 - The FBIi accidentally left that part of the report in the DNA evidence box returned to me. Plus the DNA evidence I provided had been touch and handle by many others just as the tie had been.

The FBI NEVER mentions the "LOST" cigarette butts as they were the ONLY known DNA evidence they possessed. When they "cough-up" those butts then we can talk DNA. Until then "No Bananas". DNA - CHAIN of POSESSION OF EVIDENCE - was broken - which means that someone had access to the evidence and it has been compromised...without the cigarrette butts, anything found on that tie is not admissable. The evidence was a package and one item does not stand alone with the CHAIN OF EVIDENCE POSSESSION.

There is little anyone else can provide on any suspect at this time other than he said and I said and circumstantial evidence.

Don't forget he did confess.

This is not what you asked for but no one else can provide much more than this on any suspect.

I am sure I have missed a lot that I will be reminded of at a later time. The brain is 68 yrs old - too old to continue to fight the Government of the United States of American - one I have lost faith in and no longer trust to do the right thing.....

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Ckret: feedback on your theory

Not sure what's suggesting military service. Not jump experience, right? What then? language?

What percentage of Boeing engineers in that age group, say, had military service? Is it 80-90%?
Or what percentage of pilots in that age group?
Engineer or Pilot would probably provide most of the knowledge Cooper apparently had? Why military service required?

Said-in-the-nicest-possible-way: Sometimes I think your theories are as not-backed-by-data as the rest of us! Hey You're One of Us!

Example: I looked at the US census reports for 1970 for the OR/WA states. It's split by age groups..including 35-44 and 45-54. male/female is approx 50%. Assuming all other traits are equally likely (jobs/hair color/weight/height), then including the 35-44 age group in the suspect pool only doubles the number of possible suspects. (Edit: had typo on 2nd range of 45-54..each age group is ~190 thousand in WA in 1970)

When I suggested expanding the age group you implied that it would greatly increase the number of suspects.

When we have zero suspects, and you're worried about only doubling the total pool we're fishing in, it doesn't seem right to me.

I also think my plan-was-no-jump-but-fake-jump is more backed by the evidence.

Did you hear the story of the guys who ran up to plane while taxiing and opened the baggage compartment and grabbed a money bag with a boatload of money...all while the plane is moving...

Messing with moving planes on the ground is something people usually can't conceive of. Although they thought of it on landing at Reno. Why not at takeoff?

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Sluggo,

I think he was going to bail out as soon as he was comfortable in doing so. On the assumption he was a load master during his military service, he would have a good understanding when he could jump based on the cargo he threw out of planes.

I also think there was a part of him that didn't think the plan would work at all. When he got the money the stews said he changed and acted suprised and child like. I take that as, "oh shit, i can't believe this stupid ass plan worked, they actually gave me $200,000 dollars."

Soon after the reality sets in, "Oh damn!!! now I have to really jump from this plane."

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking we're such a diverse group, that we may not all have the same idea of what people in different "groups" or "subcultures" might have looked like, or dressed like, back then.

Attached is a photo taken in 1968 of a Boeing engineer/manager, also a pilot. Aged 45 in the photo.

Notice the Boeing plane model on the table.

This picture, from the small number of photos that I've seen, seems like "typical Boeing engineer/manager type" in that time period and age group.

I'd be interested in whether I'm just showing my bias and whether there was more diversity in that kind of group then.

As we've noted, a lot of males looked like this. The hairstyle is common etc.

It also shows the likelihood of a family for such a subject, and even maybe how the family interactions might be affected by the job.

I would also note that without understanding the anthropology of those days, and what people looked like, it's easy to think some of the suspects we've mentioned have strong facial match to the sketch, when they really don't, compared to other men of that era.

It's because we're not used to looking at suspects from the right pool and age group.

[AggieDave 6]

She can't and won't post or show any actual evidence. All you'll get is a long rambling post where she says "fact" followed by an explanation of trivial situations that can't be proven and won't be proven. That is typical of persons in this situation. Also typical to these individuals is a list of "use to" and blame for not having the evidence needed followed by some vague blame as to who or why they don't. This is also provided with no evidence beyond "well I told you its true so it must be." A couple of years ago when she first started posting about Cooper, her theories and accusations weren't as wild or as outlandish as they have become. They didn't involve MLK or any other "black helicopter" conspiracies.

Its only annoying and a waste of time for most, but for someone like our SAC of the case, it turns into something that he has to spend time dealing with.

All in all its an unfortunate situation and there are persons out there that can help her, but I doubt she'll want to receive their help. Just about every single person I've ever met and dealt with in a professional setting who are in a similar situation did not want to voluntarily receive that kind of help. Most had similar theories, but they haven't involved Cooper yet. Typically it involves local agencies or semi-famous local people.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

Are you the creepy drunk uncle or the cool one who always brings gifts (wait, thats kinda creepy too).

When you come out with such bold statements you should read the post for what it was meant. I stated "a part of him" i guess I should have written "a small part of him." in any stiuation like this there are so many unknowns for the subject that when the plan works there is a moment of, "I can't believe it worked." In this case there seems to be more of a change in demeanor than others. At least thats what I learned through my schooling with regard to the matter.

I made no comment to Coopers abilities, although the evidence points to his lack of.

Landing this jump is one of the most critical parts of Cooper's escape plan, yet your clever Cooper gave it no more attention and planning than to say, "fly to Mexico." Either he planned it, was clever and thorough or he wasn't, you can't have it both ways. He made so many mistakes by ommission (lack of planning) i say he was too smart for his own good. He gave himself way too much credit, Cooper thought Cooper was clever, thats why he thought he could pull it off. But in the end, like most criminals, he wasn't as clever as he thought and paid for it with his life.

In regards to releasing information, I cannot release FBI work product but I can tell you what it says. The other data, log's, maps and such i can and have.

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman,

In regard to military service (I have posted and disscussed it many times) the theory is he was a Load Master operating out of McCord.

In regards to the no jump theory i answered that, there was no place for Cooper to conceal himself on the plane and not be discovered and the only way to create the pressure bump is to jump from the stairs and have the stairs slam back into the plane.

[snowmman 3]

thanks for the reply Ckret. I was a little abrasive in my last post, apologies.

You obviously didn't understand the theory I was stating, because I wasn't saying his plan didn't turn into a jump plan. I was talking about a possible initial plan that was better than your initial plan, if one just looks at the evidence we know of in this forum.

It was just a theory. I'm surprised you couldn't understand what I was saying, But I'll drop it.

If you think your posts make it clear that there's evidence to suggest he was a loadmaster, then okay.

[Orange1 0]

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In regard to military service (I have posted and disscussed it many times) the theory is he was a Load Master operating out of McCord.

ckret, forgive me if I am asking you to repeat yourself, but how long has this theory been around (or was it one you came up with?) - what i'm trying to get at is whether anyone who was based at mccord at the time or the few years leading up to the hijacking was interviewed by the FBI?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[happythoughts 0]

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I would also note that without understanding the anthropology of those days, and what people looked like, it's easy to think some of the suspects we've mentioned have strong facial match to the sketch, when they really don't, compared to other men of that era.

The best information possible ? A video of the actual passengers getting off of the plane.

video of the news report

Cooper has not been linked to being a Boeing employee, so identifying the clothing of engineers is not necessarily valid.

Possible suspects for Cooper have also been a former NWA flight attendant (Christiansen) and a former paratrooper (McCoy).

However, the video shows the standard travel clothing for the passengers on THAT plane.

Stop-action the video.
A woman in a white outfit walks off. A guy two people behind her fits the description. Then, a guy two people behind him. The last guy exiting has a hat and tie on. The pilot has a jacket and tie too.

Hat, jacket, and tie were clothing du jour for male 40 yo travelers.

[snowmman 3]

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Hat, jacket, and tie were clothing du jour for male 40 yo travelers.

yeah, and Cooper didn't wear a hat, even though it was raining. Does that mean anything. Dunno.

Edit: To Ckret: The most important part of the crime was to not get caught. Secondary most important: keep the money, although that's debatable. Third most important: Live.
Living's not important if you're caught, right? Prison same as death essentially (look at poor McNally)

I was thinking that I can see why Ckret has to be the good guy not the crook. If me and Larry played a game of Russian Roulette with 1 bullet in the revolver, I think he'd back down before me. Winner gets the FBI files :)

Edit: The homburg hat is rumor, right Ckret? no wonder we can't find him. We still don't agree on what is fact vs myth!

[happythoughts 0]

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Hat, jacket, and tie were clothing du jour for male 40 yo travelers.

yeah, and Cooper didn't wear a hat, even though it was raining. Does that mean anything. Dunno.

clicky

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Before takeoff, no crew member took particular note of Dan Cooper, a fit 6-footer who weighed perhaps 175 pounds. D. B. Cooper's wardrobe was the definition of nondescript in 1971: a dark suit and tie and a white shirt with a pearl tie tack. Like so many other American males of that day, he wore a homburg hat—felt, with a dented crown and narrow brim. He carried a dark raincoat and a brief case. He had brown eyes, short brown hair and no whiskers. He was white and spoke with no accent. He was tan or had a Mediterranean complexion described as swarthy or olive.

Some places sell a dark blue felt hat that they call the DB Cooper.