DB Cooper

[Ckret 0]

That's amazing, I am right handed. Keep this up and we'll have to put you on full time

[Ckret 0]

the pearl was too big on the pic you posted

[Ckret 0]

put a small pearl in the middle of the attached and you have a "Cooper Clasp"

[n467us 0]

Ckret, since we're still "tied" to this case... how was the DNA found on the tie?? I just don't get it??

[snowmman 3]

Based on our extended cigarette/match discussion, unless Ckret has something that says Cooper asked Tina for a new book of matches or something, I'm going to go out on a limb and propose Cooper wasn't at all worried about landing in the deep dark woods and having to spend the night in the cold.

If it was me, I would have freaked at running out of matches if I knew I was going to be jumping into the forest, totally unclear where I was. Unless he was just going to killl himself. But then, why worry about all the money details?

So I'm thinking, he was thinking forward to knowing he was going to be jumping someplace survivable..i.e. not planning to spend the night. It's like he had no stress, kicking back, smoking it up with Tina...yada, yada, yada. That is Cool Hand Luke, man.

I'm thinking Cooper knew what was about to happen and wasn't stressed, even if he ran out of matches.

Heck if he's a smoker, he wasn't even worried about getting a smoke on the ground? Does that mean he knew it wouldn't be long before he'd be having a stiff bourbon and soda and a smoke in a bar or at home?

If he's got days of travel ahead, you'd think he'd pocket some matches for smokes (heck he smoked 8 on the plane)!

Thoughts?

[Ckret 0]

I don't know how the lab got the DNA from the tie. The tie was sent to them with a request to attempt to locate any DNA material. The lab processed the tie and returned their results.

My guess is that they swabed any obvious stains and/or areas that would have come into contact with skin.

[Ckret 0]

From hs actions and statements I think he wanted to jump just after wheels up. He had the chute on for takeoff and he wanted the stairs down and locked for takeoff.

When Cooper learned the stairs couldn't be down for takeoff he had to go to plan B, which he didn't have. Thinking on the fly put him jumping in an area he didn't plan for.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

There is an attorney named Galen Cook who has been working with a family. The sons say that the father told each of them that he was Cooper.

I spoke with Galen Cook several yrs ago and recently. This is his 3rd or 4th suspect. Now that the new is running around about Cooper he is now pushing one of his suspects - with that many suspects from one man I tend to feel that he is looking for a book or movie,

He was very sneaky with me and kept trying to get Tina's address from me...he tried every manuever in the book and none of them worked. I told him that he was the last person in the world who should show up on Tina's door because he is so abrasive and sneaky...not the kind of person she would want to be around.

I tried to impress on him that I have accepted her privacy and did not force photo on her, but I have thought about it...many times. She did not want to discuss the matter and simply gave me a courtesy call --- as Galen Cook said --- how did I know it was her.

Well, I don't accept that this last yr I viewed a film of the reporters talking to her in Reno as they were leaving the plane - and yes, I now think I was talking to Tina. I do not have caller ID so there is no way I could verify it was her. I just have to take somethings as they come.

There was man from Galen's area who contacted me on behalf of his mother. She thought she was married to Dan Cooper as he disappeared around that time. From the things the son told me, I felt that there was no reason to go any further with the conversation.
I will have to go into the file to find that one - has been about 2 yrs now.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

[there's one question at the end of this]

Thanks Ckret. Yes, I forgot that he might have had one plan, then he lost control of his plan and had to adapt. Good point. But then we might be able to say he had an unplanned jump into the woods, which goes to [un]survival/hard-or-no escape maybe. So there's still something maybe we've learned.

You gave another clue I think, on the rig-up timeline. Sluggo's working on a flight timeline, and I wanted to overlay a "rig-up" timeline on it.. As far as I know, we've not been told for sure when he had the rig on.

So if he had the chute on for takeoff, then the stuff from Tina about tying something around his waist, that was definitely after he had the chute on?

So it's more likely he was tying it to the rig straps right? It would be too difficult to do under the rig straps, and going all the way around would interfere with chute deployment.

So can we surmise Tina's comment about having the "knapsack around him and looks like he's ready to jump" (paraphrase) that she really means knapsack=money bag, and it was probably tied to the rig straps if she saw him tying stuff while the plane was in the air???

Also, it tells us he was messing with the stairs with the rig on, so he's thinking rationally (in case he goes out).

I was wondering how he could rig up while the plane was climbing and keep his balance. Rigging up on the ground solves that.

Question: Did he cut the ropes and stuff on the chest on the ground? Any idea on that? That would be hard to do while plane climbing also.

Quote

From hs actions and statements I think he wanted to jump just after wheels up. He had the chute on for takeoff and he wanted the stairs down and locked for takeoff.

When Cooper learned the stairs couldn't be down for takeoff he had to go to plan B, which he didn't have. Thinking on the fly put him jumping in an area he didn't plan for.

[snowmman 3]

Ckret ,you guessed "jump right after wheels up"
but since Cooper specified wheels down, there wasn't going to be a wheels up right? They were flying with wheels down all the way to Portland right on his command?

So you must be imagining some reference point other than wheels up for an early jump

Altitude?
distance from SEA?
measured time with a watch?

I'm not disagreeing with a possible "earlier" reference point for a jump, but "wheels up" is not a possible one, right?

Also: do you know if they went wheels up sometime after the predicted jump to save fuel? It's unclear how they made it to Reno otherwise without going empty on fuel. Sluggo did some quicky back of the envelope calcs based on fuel consumption rates reported in the transcripts and it doesn't seem to make sense unless something changed in the plane config at some point.


Thoughts?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

put a small pearl in the middle of the attached and you have a "Cooper Clasp"

Why can't you do a good photo of the actual clasp like the one you posted? Please do.

I am getting some conflicting information. The picture I saw showed a small curved bar ending with a round flat onlay...really could not see details. Now you post a clasp that is virtually retangular and say put a pearl in the middle, but it was on the end of the one in the "tie" pics from the files or is that one even the right one?

Help me out here - round pearl or round onlay? Retangular or narrow and curved. What you physically described - is totally different and no match to the picture that the FBI made public.

From what I had been told in the past - there was no way what I had from Duane would match the tac (as it was called a tac by the media and the FBI until you revealed it was a clasp).

Please post a good picture of that clasp.

Interesting this NEW suspect Cook has gone public with. As you know I do not like this man - he is very abrasive and coniving. He has been writing "his book" for YRS and now is the time for him to come forward with his suspect because of all of the recent publicity regarding Cooper.

Strange that he told his kids he was Cooper - WHY did they wait all of these yrs to go public? If Galen had not had "other suspects" I might believe him - he has been looking for his "Cooper" for yrs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[happythoughts 0]

link

Someone's son says that their father told them he was Cooper. That is interesting, but not conclusive proof.

From the link:
Suspect was 41 years old in 1971.
5'10" tall, 175 lbs., dark hair, brown eyes, olive complexion, medium to well built.
U.S. Army Green Beret, paratrooper, three tours of duty in Vietnam.
Last stationed at Fort Lewis, Washington (40 miles south of Seattle and on direct flight path south of SeaTac International Airport).

Complexion? A matter of opinion.
Physical description? Similar.
Access? Last stationed nearby. That provides a familiarity with the region and puts him in the area.
Skills? Green Beret.

Recap:
Familiar with area.
Skills.
Similar to description.

That is as good as any other lead.

Also, on the interview, the kids said that the money was in a safety deposit box. If one bill of the money is still in a box, and can be produced, that is proof. If no money can be produced, no proof.

There is always a DNA comparison.

I wouldn't discount a claim because an attorney is unpleasant. That goes with the job description.

It is a lead with corresponding facts.

[snowmman 3]

Let's explore the Ckret Plan B theory.
(wanted to jump early, had to jump late)

So you're clueless, it's dark, you know you need to jump, you know you're a lot further from Seattle than you planned. You just flew from Portland, you know roughly how far it is.

You only have a rough idea of the time cause you didn't do time/distance/speed calcs at the reduced speed. McNally supposedly timed (had a calculator of some sort at his house). Cooper probably had a watch because he was so time-focused in his demands.

BUT: since you're in Plan B from Outer Space mode, don't you think Cooper waits till he sees some lights or something from Portland before he jumps? If you're in Plan B mode, why jump in the dark woods? There's no rush..why not wait till it seems safe.

See what I mean: ruling out a planned jump into the deep woods, makes us veer in specific directions, assuming Cooper is a rational actor. I think so far the data tells us he is, so we should always assume rational decisions given his current situation, knowledge and available information.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Either they show up with some of the money, or they are doing a bs publicity gag.

Since Brian Ingram and his wife have been offering up some of the bills for sale - I would not put it past someone to buy one of those bills at a very inflated price - with the agreement they never disclose the sale. If they produce one of the tattered bills you can bet that it is one of the bills given to Ingram.

My personal experience with Galen Cook was not pleasant and because he is coniving I would not put a stunt like this past him. Let us hope that as an attorney that he would not stoop to something like that.

If an attorney is a party to showing falsified evidence - he would be in real trouble....wouldn't he?

I guess we will just have to wait till they do the reveal. I hope someone sends me a private email with information - Remember that I don't get much where I live about the Cooper things and what I do get is 2 wks down the road.

Every time one of the new claims come up - I usually just sit back for a while and see what happens.
Not one person has been interested in the Dan Cooper out of McAllen Tx. Nor has the FBI made any mention of this fellow.

I would have more of a tendency to go with the Tx. Cooper, because Cook has had several suspects over the yrs...just sounds fishy to me...the Cooper story is HOT now and he goes public with his new suspect. Wait and see - Coopers are jumping out of everywhere now and that is what I predicted when they went public.

If these "kids" thought their father was Cooper why did they wait until he died to go public? Why would he tell his kids he was Cooper?
Did he tell them late in his life after he knew he was going to die or when they were young? I know that one -" they didn't want Daddy to go to prison". I can just see the story that Cook as composed - he used me over the yrs - as I told him a lot before I found out he was using me.

Perhaps I am be fecitious - well, I am. If he has "Cooper" then it is all over, but if I were the FBI, I would really check the information and /or evidence for falsification.
Cook may have "cooked" up a story.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

[Plan B theory is: plan was to jump early, forced to jump late]

Theory: If the initial plan was to jump close to Seattle, then it's possible Cooper started his day in Seattle.

Ckret Question: Did the FBI check in Seattle for any ticket agents selling earlier flights to Portland that day to someone like Cooper?

If you're planning on ending in Seattle with the jump, rather than Portland, then there must be something better about Seattle.

The jump landing possibilities are about similar right? so why jump early?
I don't really understand why that's a better plan unless you like landing close to Seattle for some reason. It was still going to be dark right? So it's not like that plan meant no nite jump. He only asked for stuff by 5, so he knew it'd be getting dark by the time they took off and he jumped, even then?


McNally had a target DZ close to home. Maybe Cooper did also.

If so, how did he get to Portland? Probably earlier plane right? He had the time.

It's interesting turning everything upside down and thinking the target DZ was Seattle area.

[snowmman 3]

I spent a lot of time looking closely at the photos of the Ingram bills at the auction site.

I can't picture a scenario where someone could transport the "dry" version of those bills and fragments, and throw them in the river as a bundle or collection that transports as a single mass.


Even if the bills were in better condition on the initial throw, US currency wouldn't decompose that rapidly from Fall '79 to Feb '80? Especially in the cold winter. No mold or bacteria, especialy in sand. Probably little bug action.

The rubber bands would also have to go from some kind of "working state" to dry and crumble-away state. And remember, once on the beach, there's a protective layer of sand, against sun and wind damage.

Going from a state where Duane would have had something to throw in the river, to the collection of fragments, doesn't add up with my feeling of bill durability.

And they couldn't have been "churned by the river" because the fragments wouldn't have ended up in a pile together.

So it's not just a matter of showing up at Tena Bar. The bills had to be in some kind of reasonable bundle at initial throw-in, and then have some kind of story that deteriorates them to the found state on the beach.

I believe that's impossible, therefore I don't think that story is plausible.

If they were thrown in the river in the fragmented, decomposed, found state, then they wouldn't have been found together in the manner Brian describes.

If they had been thrown in the river years before, it might be plausible. But not in Fall '79.

Edit: I was taken with Ingram "plant" theories for a while, but I believe the same thinking applies in debunking Ingram "plant" theories. It would have been too much of a pain to transport the money in that state to the beach for brian to "find". Also you'd have to "soak" them before brian found them. Even more crazy if the crumbly rubber bands really were there on discovery. How would you have gotten the bundles to the beach and soaked in that fragile state?

So I think Ingram plant theories are debunked also.

I think we need an estimate of the minimum time the money needed to decompose AT Tena Bar. There may have been prior decomposition elsewhere, that also could have created a meshed 3 bundle pack. Rubber bands will not deteriorate if kept very moist. I've read a lot of microbial deterioration of rubber depends on having just the right amount of moisture. This was from a piece on museums preserving rubber tires. Too much, and no microbe action. Also sand is good for low microbe/insect action.

I'm estimating the money was at Tena Bar for more than one year.

[377 20]

From what I have been able to find, in 1971 very few people knew that a 727 airstair door could be safely opened in flight. None of the four 727 pilots/FEs I have corresponded with knew it before the Cooper hijack. Boeing had done flight tests on inflight door deployment and documented them, but didnt publicize them or include the results in flight manuals. Don Kirlin, the man who puts on WFFC, fought the FAA for a long time to get approval for skydiving from a 727. He went to Boeing for data and they didn't want to provide it but he eventually got it. He didn't respond to my queries but Snowman can extract useful data where others, including me, draw blanks. I think Cooper had access to Boeing info indicating that the 727 could fly safely with the door open. He had to know, otherwise capture was nearly certain. He wasn't so dumb as to just guess that it could be opened. He knew speeds, the necessity for unpressurized flight, right altitude to avoid hypoxia but still give sufficient terrain clearance. He had obviously done some research.

Galen may be offensive to some, but I seriously doubt if he'd fake evidence. He could lose his bar card and that's his meal ticket. The risk/reward ratio argues against such mischief. Lawyers who are crooked usually have a disciplinary record with the state bar. As far as I can tell, Galen is squeaky clean in that area.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman, He cut the lines and tied the money bag up while they were on the ground.

[Ckret 0]

"wheels up" is reference to take off not wheels up into the aircraft

[Ckret 0]

Every airport in the US was checked to see if any connections to Cooper could be made.

[yamtx73 0]

Quote

If you're planning on ending in Seattle with the jump, rather than Portland, then there must be something better about Seattle.

The jump landing possibilities are about similar right? so why jump early?
I don't really understand why that's a better plan unless you like landing close to Seattle for some reason. It was still going to be dark right? So it's not like that plan meant no nite jump. He only asked for stuff by 5, so he knew it'd be getting dark by the time they took off and he jumped, even then?


McNally had a target DZ close to home. Maybe Cooper did also.

If so, how did he get to Portland? Probably earlier plane right? He had the time.

It's interesting turning everything upside down and thinking the target DZ was Seattle area.

I can think of a couple reasons why Seattle instead of Portland...

1 - He lived in/near Seattle
2 - He had an accomplice on the ground waiting to pick him up
3 - He drove to the airport and didn't want to leave his own abandoned car in the vicinity of the airport.

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[nitrochute 2]

i have a couple of questions . is it possible that cooper may have planned to make the jump under the cover of darkness all along? the sight of someone descending under parachute in a place where there was NO commercial drop zone (in broad daylight) would definitely attract attention.
also did cooper have any sort of detectable accent?

[n467us 0]

Thanks -- to me, any DNA obtained from the tie is suspect because of the high likelihood of outside contamination and the very minimal contact of a clip on tie to the skin/body -- certainly would not warrant a conviction in my opinion.

Wouldn't it be a kick if that tie was actually left in the seating area by a prior passenger and has NOTHING to do with the Cooper case!!

[snowmman 3]

Good stuff 377.

I'm wondering though, whether we should also review the "dumb guy" possibility. Maybe we should reject "dumb guy" since Cooper appeared to be intelligent in most other actions.

I'm sure Ckret has a lot of experience with "dumb guy" stuff, where someone pulls something off, and it seems brilliant, but the perps where actually pretty stupid.

The "dumb guy" scenario would be just that Cooper knows the plane has stairs, and assumes "hey if I just open them and jump, I'm home free"...i.e. he doesn't even think thru the possibility that they might not open in flight. Why would a "dumb guy" think they wouldn't open in flight?

Now the door doesn't open unless the cabin is depressurized right? (I posted the instructions for opening the door and stairs in an earlier post). The 10,000 ft limit and cabin depressurization took care of that problem. Do we say that was just "dumb guy" action?

377's point seems valid...on the whole, it seems like Cooper had to know that the combination of all his requests and actions, would lead to a successful stair deployment, even though he apparently didn't have full knowledge of the stairs, as Ckret likes to point out.

Also, a "dumb guy" might think the stairs would open, but without understanding the air flow, wouldn't he be worried about all the fast air keeping the stairs from opening enough for him to squeeze out.

It does seem the probabilities favor an assumption of intelligence and knowledge.

Note that the pilots thought the stairs would be destroyed on landing at Reno and they were wrong. So Cooper's initial attempt to tell them to take off with stairs down might have been actually "superintelligent" knowledge. Do we know if a 727 could actually take off with stairs down? I'm no expert, but if it can land with stairs down, couldn't it take off with stairs down?
(the pilots could have been wrong in the Cooper case)

[snowmman 3]

Part of the "mythology" of the Cooper case is a pseudo science story about how rubber bands would have deteriorated away in about a year in the exposed condition at Tena Bar.

I think this could be total junk science.

First: review the 3 descriptions Brian has been quoted as saying about Bundle Discovery. Mashed together, on top on one another, touching. Basically an almost integrated mass of sorts.

Second: look closely at all the bill fragments.

For the bundles to be so closely integrated together, yet fragile and fragmented, a lot of decomposition had to happen after bundle arrival at Tena Bar.

I think the statements about rubber bands are just bad science.
There are 4 main factors, I believe, in rubber band decomposition
1) microbial. This depends on a precise range of moisture. Too dry or Too wet inhibits. Cold also inhibits
2) Cold. rubber bands get brittle in cold
3) UV
4) Ozone

We know the rubber bands were covered with sand. I think that would protect against Ozone and UV deterioration. Microbial deterioration may be inhibited by the apparent constant moisture environment.
Remember the bundles were "soaked" even though they were far up the bank...30 feet or so? so the sand was wet just under the surface. The river levels change over time, but not overnite?

Also, the sand is a low microbe environment. I was reading an article on human body decomposition, and they mentioned how it lasts longer if buried in sand.

If the rubber band lifetime was extended, then the same factors would aid in slowing US currency decomposition or discoloration.

Edit: I was surprised at the relatively small amount of insect holes in the currency. I'm no expert, but it made me think it favored decomposition in sand burial, rather than soil burial. (more insects in soil)

All in all, I think we should reject any supposed scientific analysis that talks about "1 year or less" for the money on Tena Bar.

I think the science could support the money being there for many years.

I'm also wondering about the science guaranteeing the clay layer is connected to the '74 dredge, but that's another post. I'm willing to say the money may have been there since '74 or '75 though.[email]