DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

(I think I got these dates right...)

I was just noticing that N467US (the Cooper plane) was the 137th 727 built. (although it's trash now, there are actually a handful built earlier than it that are still flying, 40+ years after manufacture!)

N467US was first flown 4/9/65 and delivered 4/22/65.

The very first 727 was first flown 2/9/63 in Renton, WA and actually not delivered until well after the second one was delivered on 3/12/63

The 727 program was started at Boeing in 1959.

So if Cooper was mid 40's (45) then he could have been at Boeing 12 years before 1971, say when he was 33.

He could have been involved in 727 development in some way, rather than just some random job in aviation.

Maybe got laid off, and got pissed, especially if he had been a lifer. Might feel connected to 727s.

Interesting question, what would Cooper have been doing in 1959 at the start of the 727 development program?

Or even further back, would he have been a college boy? That would be mid-1940's, right after WWII. Maybe went to college on GI bill? Or maybe wasn't in WWII or Korea at all. Just a kid in college around '44 to '48 or thereabouts?
Maybe absolutely zero military experience. Jumpers here have mentioned the "wannabe" scenario.

edit: also, doesn't his dress at that age, seem to say the probabilities favor him being married? I have a hard time picturing him as the mid-40's single guy in a business suit in 1971 doing a hijack. Like how narrow was that tie: is it 1.5" or 2"?

edit: and then if he's married, the probabilities (in '60 thru '71 say) favor him having a kid or more. That's why I was thinking about the 5-piece set for father's day or something.

I had a theory that the tie could have been left as a suicide note. If he died, the family would know. If he didn't, it wouldn't be traceable to him.

[quade 3]

Quote

The FBI's Tie Photo

I went back to look at the clasp in the pic from the FBI. Does anyone see in that photo what I see.

Cooper WAS left handed. Note that the clasp is placed from the left. Duane was left handed.

Jo -

Do we know for certain the method this particular tie clasp uses to attach itself to both the tie and the shirt?

The reason I ask is if it is one of the "alligator" type that attaches to the edge of the shirt, then I think it is FAR more likely that the tie clasp had been removed from the tie and replaced incorrectly? Why?

That type of tie clasp on men's shirts can't work the other way.

Think about it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo, cooper paid for the drink (singular) with a $20 bill. He paid before he got the $200,000.

He was seen smoking, in fact Tina struck a match to one for him.

I know both of these things. I am not the one who asked if he smoked and I know he paid with a twenty dollar bill. Again you evade the questions I ask and make it appear I am an idiot.


Question. When Cooper paid for the drink - did he remove the twenty from a money clip?

Question. The tie clasp is clipped from the left - this means it could not have been clipped to his shirt, so did the stewardesses note that he was left handed?

Question. Even left handed people put their clips on the right way so why was Cooper's clipped from the left?

Question. Did Tina identify that clasp as being the one that Cooper was wearing? Just because it was in the seat doesn't mean he was wearing that tie and clasp.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

I knew the answer to my question, but I wanted to see what Ckret would say about the tie. Thanks anyway.

But, I did learn something we haven't know before - Tina lit a smoke for him! More information dribbles out drop by drop.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

The 727 program was started at Boeing in 1959.

As you are aware Duane's brother worked for Boeing and was an advisor for Boeing in WW11. 1959 is the last time Duane would have had access to information before he went to prison in Colorado for 2 yrs. 1960-1962.

Quote

So if Cooper was mid 40's (45) then he could have been at Boeing 12 years before 1971, say when he was 33.

He could have been involved in 727 development in some way, rather than just some random job in aviation.

Those two statements describe Duane's brother who worked for Boeing. The brother and Duane had a falling after Duane was released from prison and living with is mother in Huntington. Duane was asked to leave his mothers residence by the brother after some gold coins came up missing and Duane was bring his floozies to Mother Webers home.

Quote

Interesting question, what would Cooper have been doing in 1959 at the start of the 727 development program?

Out of prison and his brother was still with Boeing.

Quote

His dress at that age, seem to say the probabilities favor him being married? I have a hard time picturing him as the mid-40's single guy in a business suit in 1971 doing a hijack. Like how narrow was that tie: is it 1.5" or 2"?

I have gone where that question with take you and I got clobbered.
I had a picture of Duane made with the wife in 1971 with a brown suit on...and his hair dyed and slicked back.

Quote

I had a theory that the tie could have been left as a suicide note. If he died, the family would know. If he didn't, it wouldn't be traceable to him.

Not too far from the story told to me by the wife and the son - except they told me the tie and clasp belonged to someone else. I took that as his leaving a message as to why he was doing what he was doing --- but you could be more right than I am - it could have been a way of letting them know if he didn't come back. They were separated from Nov of 1971 to Feb or 1972.

Snowmman for a guy who got kicked out of here - you sure have turned out to be a very detailed person and providing information that all of us can use.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 3]

Quote

Question. The tie clasp is clipped from the left - this means it could not have been clipped to his shirt, so did the stewardesses note that he was left handed?

Are we certain we know the type of clasp mechanism involved?

Again, if it's an "alligator" type of clip, then it is indeed odd that it appears to be clipped in from the left side of the tie, but . . . it's also entirely possible that someone, including DB Cooper himself, removed the clasp from the tie and replaced it.

There's another possibility as well.

Perhaps it's not an "alligator" type of clip, but a "chain and button hole" type of clip. In that case, the way it's attached to the tie is still not conclusive proof that DB Cooper was either left or right handed. Imagine for a moment a person preparing such a tie. Since it's a clip on tie, it's entirely possible the clasp could have been attached to the tie -before- attaching it to the collar of the shirt. In that case, it's entirely possible, that if the tie were laid out on a dresser or bed and a person approached it from the front, he -might- attach it from the side shown in the photograph if he was -right- handed.

Honestly, I think you're making -way- too much of an issue over the way the tie clasp is shown in the photograph and especially so since we know so little about how the tie clasp works to begin with.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All you Left-handed vs. Right-handed guys.

Stop and think a minute. A man’s shirt has buttons on the right and button-holes on the left. This means the overlap opening is to the right. The purpose of the tie clasp was to attach the tie to the shirt. To do so, the tie bar has to go onto the tie from the right otherwise it can’t attach to the shirt.

If the tie originally had the tie-bar attached from the right it means nothing. If it originally had the tie-bar attached from the left it means the wearer didn’t care to attach the tie to his shirt, but rather just used the tie-bar to hold the two ends of the tie together (much like modern tie pins).

The tie has been handled, how do you know the tie-bar was originally in that configuration? There is no right-handed, left-handed, or ambidextrous data to be gained here.

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[quade 3]

Quote

There is no right-handed, left-handed, or ambidextrous data to be gained here.

I think we're in agreement on this point.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

re clasp direction

There's a second (current) news photo where the tie clasp is on the other (correct) side. (attached)
url is http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/340794_cooper23.html?source=mypi
This photo actually is clearer than the FBI photo, also.
Edit: you can tell my photo here is not flipped because there is text on the envelopes in the background that reads correctly.


Carr has said here before he takes the clasp off and puts it back on when he shows the tie to journalists.

Either the one photo is flipped, or Carr doesn't pay attention when he puts the clasp on? Maybe Carr is messing with us?? or is it the photographer?

p.s I never would have thought I'd say it, but I'm starting to think about Duane as Cooper. (today)

I don't mean to offend Jo or other females here, but it sounds like Duane knew how to "charm" women.

We knew that Tina didn't think badly of Cooper, but I'm really surprised she lit a smoke for him. I mean that's a pretty trusting/close act. Maybe she was just trying to save her skin and make him feel comfortable.

I've very curious about this new-to-me thing about Duane's brother and Boeing. Yes we all suspect Jo makes things up on the fly to fit new facts. But Jo, can you give more detail? This sounds like a hard fact/claim that you should be able to provide more evidence on. Is the brother still alive? What did the brother do at Boeing?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

There is no right-handed, left-handed, or ambidextrous data to be gained here.

I think we're in agreement on this point.

Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna go on and on about how the tie was handled so much that you refuse to accept DNA evidence off it, it's a bit rich to place so much faith in the way the tie clip is attached. Some people might view that as grasping at straws.

I like the hypothesis of a tie as an "in case" suicide note...

Now if anyone can tell me why we should get excited about the fact that Tina struck a match for him, other than it indicates he did not have a lighter (or at least a working lighter) with him, I'd be interested!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

If Tina lit a smoke for Cooper, it was probably matches. Lighting with a lighter is usually a solitary operation, right (cause it can be one-handed, plus more flame control issues)
Matches is the more common "two-person" operation.
Edit: I would also note Carr didn't report "Tina lent him her lighter. ...hmm was Tina a smoker? is that why she had matches or ???

So if Tina used a match, it may mean Cooper ran out. Probability suggests probably not because his lighter ran out, but he ran out of matches.

Did Tina supply the match she used to light him up? I can't imagine Cooper handing her a book and saying "Light me up"...if so that's a weird power trip he's on.

So if Cooper was using matches before the Tina lightup, were matches found along with the butts?

Ideally, you'd find the empty matchbook, right?

Feedback on where my thinking might be wrong here? I guess I'm wondering if Carr can squeeze more out of this in his files.

Edit: Note that Tina could have just given him a book of matches. Interesting that she lit one for him. If it was a wild-eyed 28 year old with a machine gun, she probably would have just given him a book....

[Orange1 0]

Quote

So if Tina used a match, it may mean Cooper ran out. Probability suggests probably not because his lighter ran out, but he ran out of matches.

Snowmman, I'm confused. What would lead you to think that? I'm inclined, thinking about it further, to say probability implies the opposite. Why? Because with a matchbook, you can see when you're about to run out of matches and would (maybe) buy more. Especially in those days where (I stand corrected here) I don't think semi-transparent lighters where you could see fluid levels were common, a smoker would much more likely be caught out with a lighter suddenly running out than matches.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[labrys 0]

Quote

...hmm was Tina a smoker? is that why she had matches or ???

She was a flight attendent. She probably carried matches as a courtesy for smoking passengers who needed a light, much as many bartenders do.

Owned by Remi #?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

.
new-to-me thing about Duane's brother and Boeing. Yes we all suspect Jo makes things up on the fly to fit new facts. But Jo, can you give more detail? This sounds like a hard fact/claim that you should be able to provide more evidence on. Is the brother still alive? What did the brother do at Boeing?

First Snowmman I don't make things up on the fly. If someone suggests something I might play with the idea or stand my ground.

Find one thing that I have MADE UP. Remember it has to be taken in context with the post it is addressing...I have played with the suppositions on this forum just like everyone else. BUT, my story stays the same. Working with ideas has led to discovery of evidence on my part and by information provided by others in the forum - such as the Commentation of Sentence. In an investigation this is allowed. This is why I am here.

Now, regarding Duane's brother. The FBI is well aware of the brother and his involvement with Boeing. I have discussed the schematic to the Boeings and Duane's access to them in the early yrs. How much access he had in the late 60's I do not know.
I have also stated Duane's obsession with planes and his knowledge of them.

I am willing to discuss this in as much detail as I can with the FBI, but not on the forum. I have respected the privacy of his family and will continue to do so. What I have stated is the truth as told to me by the brother and most of this is in writing.

I do not know if the FBI ever questioned the brother, but they had the information. The brother is much older than Duane - by more than 10 yrs. I do not know if he has died or not but, considering his age and that the last few yrs he has not been able to conduct a conversation with me on the phone
and my last contact with the wife, I would say he has expired. He was in his 90's.

This is what I mean by saying that the FBI dropped the ball in the investigation of Duane - when the individals where alive they did not go and talk to them.

The only one I know they spoke with was the ex-wife of the time - from 1962 to 1972 --- I requested that they wire me and and let me go see her. But, they chose to call her and say they were coming to see her - and as per the daughter she took some drastic measure before that visit. This daughter dies a few yrs later and her mother died in 2006.

Exactly what the brother's job with Boeing was I am not sure, but he had to be high ranking and probably and engineer or designer ( he had a degree but I don't know in what field).

If someone is acting working as a consulton to the army for Boeing during war time - that speaks very loudly. The schematics were laying around the house - (the brother's words) and Duane had access to his home.

It would be very simply for the FBI to verify the brothers yrs and involvement with Boeing. This will prove nothing since the brother can no longer speak for himself, but it could enforce Duane's knowledge and access factors.

The brother would have been more than glad to have talked to the FBI has he been contacted.

I was able to meet he and his wife in CA. around the early part of 2004, but I had my husband with me and we did not discuss Duane out of consideration for my husband who was in Ca. for cancer treatment.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

So not possible Cooper had something like a Bic lighter. Not sure if there were other's like it before 1972. I suspect not.

if he had a lighter, it was probably the kind you snap open and pour lighter fluid into the felt? I remember my dad's. I'm not sure if there were semi-transparent versions. They were usually metal.


reference
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/BIC-Corporation-Company-History.html

Expanding Its Product Line in the 1970s

In 1970 Gillette purchased the S. T. Dupont Company, a prestigious French manufacturer whose principal product was luxury cigarette lighters that sold for hundreds of dollars. During this time Dupont explored the possibilities of marketing a disposable lighter, developing an inexpensive disposable lighter called Cricket, which it introduced in the United States in 1972. Later that year Time reported that BIC was test marketing a disposable lighter that could provide 3,000 lights before wearing out. BIC introduced this lighter in 1973.

[snowmman 3]

Jo,
I've always thought that you needed to put Duane in a pilot's seat, or connected to aviation, not a parachute. Everything we've discussed here, and even McNally, suggests we could go down the path of saying zero jump experience is potentially ok. I couldn't understand why you pursued a parachute connection for Duane because it doesn't seem needed to me.

Edit: oh you already said much older for the brother.

I can't believe this story about schematics laying around. I mean forget all the nonsense about MLK and Ray bros and Bay of Pigs.

I really like the idea that Cooper may have got plane knowledge from a friend or family. Especially a family member he may have later had issues with.

Can you go into detail about these schematics. I really can't believe that. Did you see them? where did that story come from? were you there?

[Orange1 0]

So who's to say the brother wasn't Cooper...?

I also find the idea of schematics lying around in full view at someone's house, especially if they are sensitive and that person is in fact in a high up position, somewhat odd.

Question: if the brothers had a falling out, and the brother suspected him (i mean come on... if the sketch was so accurate, surely his brother would have recognized him, then thought about these plans he had left lying around and put 2 + 2 together...) why wouldn't he have tipped off the FBI?

I also wouldn't, however, go off track about jumping experience. McNally got lucky - there are people who are trained to jump who still manage to die, in some instances on their first jump, and we know for a fact that rig had a hard pull. I still think the best chance of Cooper surviving the jump is if he was experienced, and better still if he was trained for those conditions e.g. a paratrooper.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

(Edit: good points made by Orange1 just above on the brother theory)

There's this whole theory about Duane throwing money in the river on a certain date, and showing up months later, slightly covered by sand high on the river bank at Tena Bar.

For this story to work, the Columbia would have to be some number of feet higher, at some point before the money find, and at, or after the "throw-in" date.

My guess is that the river would have to have been at least 4 feet higher in that period, compared to the find date. This is based on looking at the Tena Bar dig photo and the beach slope.

The water could have been higher, as the bag may not have floated, or it may have travelled intermittently at different water heights.

But it would have to at least once been high enough to get up on the shore. (unless you subscribe to wave theories, but I don't think that gives you sand coverage)

This is a short period of time. Fall '79 to Feb '80.
I suppose with winter rains the water could rise that high easily.

Be nice if we had records that showed how high the Columbia went in that short period. (around Portland/Vancouver)

[happythoughts 0]

There is an attorney named Galen Cook who has been working with a family. The sons say that the father told each of them that he was Cooper.

The father kept a filing cabinet on the subject.
Also, he said that the money was in two safety deposit boxes in Vancouver, Canada.

The guy was a former Green Beret.

There is 4 youtube clips of the 5/25 interviews on a radio talk show. The last 2 are the best.

This week, the attorney is putting it all together.

The son sent pics in. I don't really put a lot of value on the pics because everybody dressed like that in 1971.
clicky
The guy does have the brown eyes.

It would be nice to do a quick DNA comparison and get past this.

Either they show up with some of the money, or they are doing a bs publicity gag.

They are supposed to put it all together in a newspaper article his week.

clicky

Quote

According to investigator Galen Cook, an attorney who has spent years investigating the case, a new suspect will be named in the Depoe Bay, Oregon newspaper on May 28, 2008. This information was released on Coast to Coast AM radio show on Saturday, May 24, 2008. According to Cook, the Oregon town is the same place the suspect, who died September 1, 2003, lived and has surviving family.

So, tomorrow, maybe the newspaper will provide some info that puts a person in an airline seat.

[n467us 0]

Let's hope Ckret can help rule this guy in or out -- I wondered whatever happened to him since the radio talk show many months ago.

[snowmman 3]

Evidently Tina Mucklow's hometown at the time of the hijack was in the Bucks County, PA area.

The local paper, the Bucks County Courier Times interviewed her stepmom about her phone conversations with Tina immediately after the hijack, and with officials during the hijack.

In an article on page 1 and 4 of the 11/26/71 edition, Tina's stepmom relays what the airline officials said when they called her while the hijack was in progress.

"They comforted the family with reports that the hijacker didn't seem to be insane. "They said he was very intelligent and knew a lot about planes and parachutes and that he was being very pleasant with Tina." the stepmother related.

Other detail worth noting is that Tina was a stewardess for 2 1/2 years before the hijack. It has one thing that seems wrong. It says she was threatened with pushing near an open door if his demands weren't met. I don't think Cooper ever threatened anyone, right?

Also, pictures of Tina afterward shows her with her hair down. I think the pictures we have from Orbis we have may not have been from immediately after the hijack.

I have some of the photos with her hair down, and she looks more like I would expect for a 22 year old in 1971, compared to the hair-up-do picture.

In a touch of the early '70s, I thought this was an amusing quote from the stepmom.

"Tina is about 5-foot eight inches tall, slender and blonde. Mrs. Mucklow says the photo taken of her after the ordeal does not do her justice.

She's a beautiful girl and her hair is always perfect but I guess that ordeal was enough to leave anyone disheveled. She really looked exhausted".

You go girl!

I attached the snippet about planes and parachutes.
(remember the stepmom is relaying what they told her the night before)

[Ckret 0]

The tie clasp is an alligator clip

Cooper only had matches and when he ran out Tina used the ones she had. i would imagine in 1971 they carried matches on the drink cart and lit cigarettes for passengers many times a flight.

Cooper gave Tina one of his a cigarettes which she smoked. Sitting next to Cooper.

The tie clasp was packaged seperate from the tie when it was collected as evidence. Each item would have been seperated and processed individually. I put the clasp back on the tie.

[snowmman 3]

The auction site with Ingram's 15 bill fragments has very high quality ZOOMABLE pics of the fronts and backs of all the fragments

You can select at
http://www.ha.com/common/search_items.php?txtSearch=1971+Ransom+Money&chkAuctions=1&chkInventory=1&ic=homepage_search&hdnSearch=true&optGlobalSearch=1
or for example go straight to here for the best bill
http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=685&Lot_No=70286#Photo

I've attached 4 jpgs zoomed in that show higher quality detail of the damage characteristics, I think.

Not really sure what might be interesting though.

[snowmman 3]

Cooper had no matches when he landed on the ground.

There has been a lot of debate from survivalists about him spending the night on the ground with a fire in the woods.

We can guess with reasonably high certainty (unless he had extra supplies he didn't use for his smokes) that he didn't have matches on the ground? Unless he pocketed a pack from Tina after she lit him up?

And he was putting the moves on Tina! :)

Ckret: you mentioned that the tie bar in my 5 piece set was not a good match. It has an alligator clip. What surprises me is Jo said something about 2 bars, you say alligator clip. My photo has alligator clip. What's wrong with the tie bar in my 5 piece set? It's a different kind of alligator clip? It's the tiebar in the back right of the box.

Edit: I was musing to myself that the sketch circulated immediately after the hijack should have had NO TIE if you wanted to catch the eye of someone who might have given him a ride on the ground :)

[quade 3]

Quote

The tie clasp is an alligator clip

The tie clasp was packaged seperate from the tie when it was collected as evidence. Each item would have been seperated and processed individually. I put the clasp back on the tie.

Ok, now we know that Ckret is right handed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver