GoPros right off of student status?

[monkycndo 0]

devildog

And btw, it's not slander when it's written. It's libel.

Do you have any statistics to prove you are right?

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[-Joey- 0]

devildog

***Hopefully the mods will do something about people like you who falsely accuse others of trolling simply because they disagree with you on a particular topic. Slander is one thing that shouldn't be allowed on this forum.

You said you were a troll. You act like a troll. Your posts reek of troll. Ergo, you are a troll. Your troll sauce is weak. You over play your hand far too quick to effectively reel people in.

And btw, it's not slander when it's written. It's libel.
My posts in SC were troll posts (it's a political forum, what do you expect). My posts here are real discussion relevant to the topic.

There is nothing wrong with anything I've posted in this thread. The OP advocated for a more hostile attitude toward camera jumpers with low jump numbers. I'm asking for evidence that shows such an attitude is warranted. Until that is shown, I disagree that it is warranted. Perfectly logical.

The replies I've gotten have generally been one of the following 3 types of replies:
1. Anecdotal evidence (which is not scientifically valid satitistcal data)
2. Appeals to majority ("look at the number of people who disagree with you on this thread") which is an argumentative fallacy
3. Ad hominems / personal insults, which is another argumentative fallacy

The one thing I asked for, data showing that a significant percentage of incidents have been caused directly by the presence of a camera, has yet to be provided. Sure, a few anecdotes of jumpers losing altitude awareness while trying to get that perfect shot have been provided, but data showing how often that happens compared to incidents like low turns hasn't, which leads me to believe it is an insignificant contributor to incidents as a whole and thus the hostility toward young camera jumpers is unwarranted.

No trolling, just logic.

Skydiving is serious business

[NWFlyer 2]

-Joey-

The replies I've gotten have generally been one of the following 3 types of replies:
1. Anecdotal evidence (which is not scientifically valid satitistcal data)

Please, let me know when/where you find scientifically valid statistical data in this sport, because I think a lot of us would be really interested in looking at it and using it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[linebckr83 3]

I don't think you will find a large number of new jumper incidents related to cameras, but for different reasons than you think.

Every dropzone I've been to has been vigilant in stopping new jumpers from wearing cameras, jumping canopies outside their ability, participating in freeflying before becoming proficient in belly skills, etc. These are things a dropzone can directly enforce, and most do.

You cant stop a guy from making a low turn and plowing in. You can't stop a guy from incorrectly handling a malfunction. You can't make sure everyone packs perfectly all the time.

The number of incidents of things like cameras on new jumpers or new jumpers under sub 100 crossbraced canopies will never amount to the number of incidents of experienced jumpers with proper gear because it is regulated most everywhere in the country.

What do you think would happen if any dz let any new jumper jump any canopy they wanted? Of course incidents would start popping up. What do you think would happen if every dz let every student and new jumper jump with any and all extra equipment they wanted? I can guarantee incidents would show up then too.

I could ask you to show me the huge number of incidents from new jumpers flying canopies beyond their ability. But you couldnt give me one. Sure there are anecdotal examples here and there, but largely it isnt a problem. And neither is new jumper camera-related incidents. Because preventative measures have been taken to ensure it doesnt happen.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[-Joey- 0]

NWFlyer

***

The replies I've gotten have generally been one of the following 3 types of replies:
1. Anecdotal evidence (which is not scientifically valid satitistcal data)

Please, let me know when/where you find scientifically valid statistical data in this sport, because I think a lot of us would be really interested in looking at it and using it.Well for example 32% of reported fatalities are due to landing issues. That's a metric that I would consider valid justification for things like the written test on canopy progression for the B license. That's just one example.

Skydiving is serious business

[Hellis 0]

-Joey-

******

The replies I've gotten have generally been one of the following 3 types of replies:
1. Anecdotal evidence (which is not scientifically valid satitistcal data)

Please, let me know when/where you find scientifically valid statistical data in this sport, because I think a lot of us would be really interested in looking at it and using it.Well for example 32% of reported fatalities are due to landing issues. That's a metric that I would consider valid justification for things like the written test on canopy progression for the B license. That's just one example.

Are you sure it's only 32%?

A canopycollision and entanglement would also be "landing issues" wouldn't it?
Same thing with the "landing issue" that comes from having nothing out. It's just a higher speed landing.

You keep asking for statistics, what is statistics?
It's just numbers.
Read the details of what happend and not just the numbers.

It's probably easier to just read for example that jumping with a camera is 50% more dangerous.
But what does that mean? Does it mean half of your landings will be PLF?
If you read what has happend and not just the number you can be prepaired for whatever is coming.
Reading just a number doesn't say anything.

I can see in the Base fatality list there is 205 deaths.
That is statistics.
But what do I learn from that? Nothing!

If I want to learn I would read what happend and how to prevent it from happening again.
And this is what Kallend (If I remember correct) wrote earlier, a desription of events and not just numbers.
Yet you want the useless numbers.

[Fearjoburg 0]

Guys - don't this dude sound an awful lot like Shah?

Just wondering.

Joye not Hellis.

[Ron 7]

Quote

I'm asking for evidence that shows such an attitude is warranted. Until that is shown, I disagree that it is warranted. Perfectly logical.

What is not logical is you ignoring the data presented.

Quote

The one thing I asked for, data showing that a significant percentage of incidents have been caused directly by the presence of a camera, has yet to be provided. Sure, a few anecdotes of jumpers losing altitude awareness while trying to get that perfect shot have been provided, but data showing how often that happens compared to incidents like low turns hasn't, which leads me to believe it is an insignificant contributor to incidents as a whole and thus the hostility toward young camera jumpers is unwarranted.

And there it is for all to see. The data is provided and you ignore it because you don't WANT it. You only want data that supports your closed minded opinion.

You state that a few jumpers loose track of altitude trying to get the shot.... Then claim there is not data being presented.

Besides you have already proven that you will discount any accident that does not fit your impossibly small criteria. If a person hooks in trying to film their shadow... You claim that is a canopy issue (and it is partly), and ignore the camera issue (they would not be trying to film their shadow without a camera). If a person falls till impact while trying to get a cool video shot... You claim it is loss of altitude awareness (and again, it is partly), but you ignore WHY they lost altitude awareness.

Quote

No trolling, just logic.

The logic in your argument went out the door the second you ignored all the data that was provided.

Once again, I have over 6k jumps and have been skydiving 40 years. I'll gladly back that claim up. Now, your turn... How old are you and how many jumps do you have to show how you claim 'expert' knowledge?

BTW.... Trolling is also saying the same tired thing over and over when you have been proven to be incorrect... That is exactly what you are doing here.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[excaza 1]

ScoopUK

Joe Jennings started with only 80 jumps and I'd imagine camera equipment was still fairly bulky then.

Just playing devils advokate.

I'd be willing to wager some beer that Joe wouldn't recommend most others do the same. There are always going to be people ahead of the curve (or lucky), you don't use them to set things up for the general population.

[billvon 2,400]

>Show me the statistics


November 27 2009-NorCal Area
Female with approx 40 jumps exited aircraft with friend (about same number of jumps) Female claims to be “very active” BASE jumper, so going low (approx 1000 feet) was “no big deal.” She did not have a CYPRES. She was trying to shoot her friend’s deployment “from below.” No injury.

December 17, 2009 –SoCal Area
Male from Switzerland. 30 jumps. “I’m a paraglider pilot, so I know how to fly already.”
Flew into fence while trying to get video of his shadow. Minor cuts/abrasions.

Exact Date unknown-SoCal area
Female jumper, around 80 jumps was warned on ground and in aircraft about flying with a camera. She indicated that she felt very confident about flying with the small format camera taped to her helmet.
She left the aircraft with her goggles around her neck and after landing, admitted that in the process of trying to get the camera going, she had forgotten to put on her goggles. She was shaken up by the experience. No injury.

January 1 2010 Southeastern Region
Skydiver was shooting a friend on a high clear n’ pull. Neither one noticed their location and both ended landing far off the dropzone. Sprained ankle resultant from downwind landing on uneven and unfamiliar terrain.

March 21 2010 Southwestern Region
Skydiver “just shooting my jump” saw another canopy in the pattern and wanted to shoot it not noticing his own altitude. Downwind landing (against pattern). No injury, merely a talking-to by S&TA.

February (day unknown) SoCal
Two skydivers, each with fewer than 100 jumps, wearing small format cameras. They were practicing sit-flying and went low. Both deployed at approximately the same time and had a collision during deployment. Both suffered bruising, contusions. One jumper had 4 broken lines and 3’ tear in his center cell but did not cut away. He described the canopy as “really cool in the video” indicating he’d spent a lot of time looking up at the canopy. Neither had serious injuries.

March, exact date unknown Area/location not disclosed.
Tandem instructor with small format hand cam has a malfunction. He cuts away main but does not reach for the reserve handle, apparently anticipating a MARD save. He later explained that he wanted to keep filming the student and the cutaway (He did get great footage). No injury.

April 13 2010 Western Region
Skydiver with around 100 jumps wearing camera on head has spinning malfunction.
Delays cutting away and disconnects chinstrap on helmet before cutting away, losing altitude awareness. He was worried about the snag hazard, but still left his RSL connected anyway. He did not pull his reserve handle because “he felt the Skyhook take over as he was putting his hand on the D ring.” Skydiver had allegedly been warned about wearing a camera before 200 jumps. No injury.

April 19 2010 SoCal
Same skydiver from Switzerland mentioned earlier (Paraglider pilot) working on his swooping skills @ 200 jumps (while wearing wingsuit). Flew into fabric side of packing area breaking tension cables and damaging wingsuit. Claims camera wasn’t part of his incident.

April 21, 2010 Southeast Region
Skydiver with 242 jumps got a small format camera for Easter and was anxious to jump it. He pulled the camera from the USB charger and was rushing to the aircraft. He could not get the camera to turn on/stay on/go into record mode, and as a result of his rush, forgot to connect his chest strap.
He was experienced enough to grab his MLW and hold on during deployment.
His PM said “I think I need to work on my mental skills more because the camera kept me from doing my regular routine.” No injury.

May 3-5 (exact day unknown), 2010 Western Region
Skydiver could not get his small format camera to turn on and when the exit light came on, was still playing with his helmet. He delayed the other jumpers to the point that two others went past him. This created a snag hazard for the other skydivers, plus he had a helmet loose in the door area. The tandems on the load requested a go-around. No injury, was talked to on the ground.

May 2010 Central Region
AFF instructor was jumping a small format camera that they just had only just purchased. He was slightly long on climb out but still within reason. AFF jump goes normal until student deployment when the instructor flips to his back to film the opening of the student then tracks and deploys. This AFF instructor landed off while the other side instructor easily landed on the DZ with the student. Instructor was distracted by wanting to get "the shot." The instructor that landed off was carrying the student radio. The student landed uneventually without radio assistance.

June 7, 2010 South East area
Similar incident to tandem handcam incident posted above. Malfunction of the main (lineover followed by linetwists), TI cuts away but does not go for reserve handle. His left hand does not move in the entire video, and in the video, makes a comment about “getting that on camera.” Skyhook save. Reserve opens with several line twists and still, instructor does not move left hand, using right hand to twist and legs to kick.


June 20, 2010 SoCal area
(Actual jump number unknown, 3 months in sport). Newbie Jumper wearing small format camera on his chest was trying head down for the first time, got low (admitted he was geeking his camera) and deployed while head down. He flipped into his lines and one of the lines snagged his chest mount. “I was going for my hook knife but was able to clear the line first.” No injury.

June 21, 2010 Area unknown (from a post on DZ.com)
A jumper with approx. 50 jumps was gearing up and getting ready to board the plane, a highly experienced camera person noticed that this jumper had a Go Pro camera attached on top of his helmet. The jumper was questioned about his skill level, the jumper stated that the Go Pro is very small and that in no way will it ever get hung on his risers on opening, so his opinion was that it should not fall under USPA guidelines: of a recommendation of 200 skydives should be performed before flying a camera.
The jumper boarded the plane and performed his skydive. The incident was brought to my attention and the jumper was questioned by me immediately following his jump.
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!
A camera is a DISTRACTION! Like it or not! I asked this jumper how many times he checked his camera to make sure it was on before he left the plane? He said he checked it multiple times. It is obvious that after he geared up, he never once checked himself, before he entered the plane, never checked his gear, while in the plane and before exiting he never checked his gear.....he checked his camera multiple times.


June 22, 2010 SoCal area
From S+T:
===========
Jump number 200, which is the minimum requirement for strapping a camera to your head at our DZ. Strapped a camera to my head. Plan was to film two handsome skydivers jumping in only boxer shorts after some bets from the night before. This was in March, with plenty of snow on the ground. And to make it interesting, we planned a downwind landing - unless the wind was too strong. Can anyone say "recipe for disaster"? (=

Freefall was uneventful. Followed one of the guys down in canopy. Looked at the windsock and decided it was "too strong". Of course, the other guys on the load thought otherwise. Coming out of the 180 degree hook I see one of them coming towards me. Not very close, but it grabbed my attention. Even got it on tape. But I didn't notice the ground coming up on me... Didn't flare at all, hit with feet, knees, upper body, bounced back through the risers in a somersault and landed on my back about 5 meters away. Thank SkyGod for the meter of snow on the ground - I walked away with a stiff neck for 1 week.

Conclusion: Camera is a distraction. Never plan for "downwind, unless it's too much", it would be much better with "downwind, or other side of the runway if you think it's too much". 180 degree hooks make it hard for others to see what you're doing and for you to see what others are doing. Stupid stupid stupid.

June 28, 2010 Central Cal region
Guy I was organizing this weekend at XXXXX. The jumper in question has plenty of skydives but is not the most heads up guy you've ever met. We were first out of the PAC on a 4 way freefly jump.

He was having a hard time getting the camera to turn on, so he started putting his helmet on without the Small Format Camera attached, turning on the camera and then sliding it into the locking mount. He put his helmet on, thought he turned the camera on and then put the Small Format Camera on, but he put it on backwards. He realized his error just as the green light came on. The jumper started to take his helmet off to correct the problem and I told him to forget about it. He listened to me and started to climb out when someone behind us yelled, "And it's not on either" He then stopped his climb out and started to try and turn it on. I again forcefully told him to forget it and he finally finished the climb out....ready set go.

It was a light load so we had room in the spot but he was clearly more concerned with that camera than anything else going on around him. My opinion is that this is a guy who wouldn't jump a camera if the smaller form factor were not available. I told him on the ground if he was going to jump a camera he needed to be ready to go once the green light was on, and if he wasn't he needed to forget about it and exit anyway. I think I should have told him he shouldn't be jumping a camera.

Date unknown, Southeastern Region
Jumper with 133 jumps had a small format camera and this was her first jump with the camera. She removed the camera from her helmet and was talking to the camera when a gust of wind grabbed her canopy and picked her up. She landed on her side and broke her wrist. Her helmet probably saved her from additional injury.

July 4, 2010
From I/E, S&TA Western Region:
Jumper with 112 jumps decided to sneak a (brand deleted, small format) camera on a load. We do not allow them before 200 jumps, period.
Filming his own landing he failed to flare as he was watching either his feet or his shadow. We haven't heard back from the hospital yet but it appears he sprained both wrists, maybe broken.
This jumper will be monitored very closely in the future but I believe he has learnt his lesson with this injury.
Please keep posting these incidents. They make for strong arguments against these dweebs that think it's about the size of the camera that counts.

NorCal, July 10
Tandem-master is doing Handcam. Spinning main due to one break toggle being stuck. He never attempts to clear break toggle! Cut-away! Never uses left hand to pull reserve. RSL/skyhook safe. Not sure if camera was the problem. Didn't look like he tried to film everything (or at least the footage doesn't look good) He claims to have had TM cut-aways before where the skyhook beat him to the reserve....so he decided this time not even going for the reserve? TM has PRO rating too.
[dse note;I have requested a copy of this video so I can pixelate/blur faces but post the incident.]

August 19 2010
From S&TA/Southern area
Younger jumper
[edited to say] Small format camera] tied to helmet
Riser caught camera on deployment and broke plastic clip. Camera flew out but the Spectra tied to camera case caught riser and brake.
[edited to remove name] landed with helmet attached to chest strap because the way his helmet got wrapped on riser.

October 1, 2010: Mid-Western region
A jumper with approximately 120 jumps was competing in a 4-way scramble event. He had a [[namebrand deleted]] mounted on the side of his helmet with velcro and a tether. One the first jump of the day, he knocked his helmet on the door on exit and the camera came loose.

Because the camera was tethered, it was floating next to his head, smacking up and down in the wind. They ended up funneling the exit and went pretty low while he spent several seconds trying to fix it. Eventually he gave up and continued the skydive.

On the next jump he hooked up the camera again. We told him that perhaps he shouldn't wear it given the circumstances and his less than 200 jumps, but he insisted it was fine. Since our DZ doesn't have a set rule about no cameras before 200, there was nothing anyone could do.

Because I was right above the formation when the camera nearly came off, I'm not too happy with the situation. There's a good chance that I could have gotten a face-full of camera if there hadn't been a tether. Have you had any success in convincing jumpers not to use these types of cameras with such low jump numbers?

Western Region (Chicks Rock) Oct 1
Visiting jumper borrowed helmet from experienced skydiver. Small format camera on helmet.
It was this visiting jumpers first jump on this parachute/main, first helicopter jump, and second jump from below altide. He had around 50 total skydives.
After exiting the helicopter, he kept looking around the sky for his partner, but couldn't locate her, His audible can be heard going off. He does not deploy.
He appears to deploy at approx 1.5k based on pausing video with his alti in view.
He has sufficient altitude to get back to DZ at that point, but he chooses to geek teh camera instead, throwing hand signals etc. He does not make it back to the DZ landing area, and instead lands on the motorcycle racetrack. Had he deployed at proper altitude, or had he not geeked the [brand name deleted], he'd have easily made it back.

South Eastern Region PM rec'd Nov 4 2010
I should have listened to you guys.
My [{edit} small format camera] was glued and taped on the top of my helmet. When I deployeed my breaks excess got caught over the camera and I couldn't see what was caught so I tryed to pull off my helmet and then saw my break lines on it. I couldn't steer and couldn't know what to do so I chopped my canopy and had my first reserve ride. My helmet stayed tied to the canopy and even the camera was OK.
(video of this incident has been requested. This jumper has 66 jumps)

Western Region PM rec'd Dec 13 2010
Heres another 1 for your dz.com list.
Dude has a [[brand name deleted]] on his helmet @ about 65 jumps dzo he dont care.
Head down and delpoys and lines caught on the [[name brand deleted]] and he had to chop. and the [[brand name deleted]] broke off but it made his reserve twist up when it pulled his head. He got lucky to get out of the twists at about 1grand.

Midwest DZ, April 2011

First jump with a small format camera. Have owned one for about 2 years, using it for things like mtn biking, rock climbing, kayaking, snowboarding, etc. (not saying this made me ready to jump it, just more aware of what I was attaching to my helmet). Uneventful 2 way, was aware of the small format camera on my head but remained altitude aware, tracked off at 5.5, waved, deployed. Nasty spinning line twists, didn't want to chop because it was my first camera jump although I remained altitude aware in the spins, making the decision at 3K that I could kick out, started spinning out around 2.8, fully out of twists by 2.6.

SouthEastern Region June 18

My friend was jumping his [small format camera] and hit it on exit. He was trying to fix it so it was pointing the right angle after the exit and started to sping. He spinned very fast and hit me in the side and almost made my hackey come out. After he hit me we both were spinning pretty fast so he pulled his main because we said cameraman pulls first.
People should know to leave alone the camera if there is a problem in the jump so more problems don't happen in the jump.

8-22-2011: Location unknown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCu-KfMhH4g

SouthWestern Region 9-1-2011
Got another one for ya. One of our young jumpers travels a lot on business. Got his a license here. A few weeks back was up in Washington. Bought a contour from [deleted] no one ever said a word. Had 35 jumps or so. Jumped it there side mounted and at [deleted].
Came back to Texas and jumped at [deleted]. Gorgeous day was flying around enjoying the clouds and the view. When he landed realized he had lost the camera to a riser strike.
Went out to a local store and bought another. A few days later went down there, manifested on a 13 minute call. Spent the time taping his camera to his helmet to make sure he didn't lose it again. Halfway to altitude realized that he was so focused on his camera that that he didn't bring an altimeter. Hid that fact from everyone cuz he was embarrassed. Left the plane and counted to 55-one hundred and pulled when he Was getting serious ground rush
Came back to his home DZ yesterday. Walking out to the plane saw his camera and promptly told him he didn't have the experience and he didn't argue and took it right off.
Sad part is he's completely ok with not jumping it here but he openly admits that when he is somewhere they don't care, he is wearing it.

Western Region 10-8-2011
(this person has 31 jumps when the incident occurred, according to their DZ.com profile)
Here's one for your report list.
I was flying just fine after deployment but did a really hard turn. When I was looking over my shoulder my camera got stock in my lines and I couldn't get it off. I was low to take my hands off my breaks. I landed, but it cranked my head over and I sprained my wrist when I fell over. I'm going to take off the camera for a while.

North East Region 11-6-2011
Short story:
Four low experinced jumpers exiting the OTTER at 13,500' with seemingly a very poor plan. The jumps turns into a 2-way and maybe another 2-way or two more solos (two other just vanish from the frame) The guy with about 110-115 jumps wearing a Drift camera trying to video the person (same experince level or even less) a who he was able to "catch" in free fall. When I viewd the video I knew it's going to show some trouble because it was getting awefully long.
Finally the "video subject" deploys and the guy with his Drift trying to film the deployment. At the mean time the two other jumper's canopies show up in the frame while he passing them in freefall.
Of course they were low... Now the dude deploys his main as expected his AAD fires his reserve at the same time. The lucky bastard had a biplane not an etanglement or other more dangerous two out configuration. He lands on someone's roof miraculously not hurting himself and not making any property damage either. Back at the DZ proudly showing his "adventure video" without showing any strong feelings.
The guy could have died 3 times this jump!
I hope you'll post this one too.

Western Region Jan 2011
A picture is worth a thousand words.
In this 'incident' both jumpers each have 18-19 jumps. They had been turned away from wearing a camera at one DZ so they found another one that didn't ask. They both rented rigs and warned that the rental rigs weren't freefly friendly.
"Cameraman" tries to backfly so he can "get the shot." The non-freefly friendly rig has other ideas and he has a premature deployment.
Although this incident is related to the non-freefly rig issue, the jumper would not have been freeflying/backflying had he not been attempting to get a shot of his buddy from below.
Note the buddy lower than him; he could have easily fallen through his buddy's canopy at the cutaway. The buddy could have just as easily hit the cameraman during the premature deployment.
Had the camera not been there, this would likely not have happened.
Chain of 3;
-Low time jumpers
-Non-Freefly friendly rig
-Camera

Southeastern Region Feb 4, 2012
This guy was on the plane with us and had two new {small format cameras] on his helmet. He was filming his deployments and solo jump.
He kept asking if the cameras was on and was fidling with it when the door opened. He jumped out and his helmet flew off because he forgot to snap it on.
He recovered everything but the cameras and helmet was badly damaged. It could have hit a house or a car.

Mid-Atlantic Region Feb 25, 2012
I thought you might like to add this to the list.., we had a 55 jump individual jumping with a Go-Pro who was seen cutting away almost immediately after main deployment.... he reported that the camera entangled in some fashion with the risers, "shreddding" them and spinning the canopy up. He landed without incident under a reserve, losing his freebag and camera, ruining a set of risers but quite proud that he kept his handles.

Southwest Region March 6, 2012
Witnessed this weekend in XXXX
Jumper with more than 500 jumps and a coach rating jumps small format camera (GoPro) for first time. Camera mounted on shoe, facing up. After much deliberations with several experienced camera fliers. "Your shoe is as far from your lines as you can get"
- According to jumper: practiced several times with ShoeCam on the ground.
At the 20 minute call is all geared up.
Asks two experienced jumpers to check his gear while waiting for a solo.
Asks for another gear check at 9,000 ft from a load organizer on the jump (With helmet fastened and goggles on).
Turns on camera and when the door is opened the camera does not start recording.
Ignores the camera, does a solo.
Land uneventfully on the DZ.
After getting back to the packing hangar and taking off the rig, begins fiddling with the camera...SD card was resting comfortably in the gear bag.

I know your thread is for all the crap you should not do, but this might go into the "take this shit seriously" pile.
Be a student:
- Get a gear check or two.
- Do solos before jumping in groups.
- Mount the camera initially in places where snags are less likely: shoe, wrist
- Get competent help. Not DZ.com.
- Practice, practice, practice.

Maybe we can put together a procedure for FPC "First Photo Course" like the WS course. If we make it, and have camera flyer course (even if its just a 30 minute briefing and a solo jump) it might save some people and in time will become standard. Don't need more BSRs.
(Some dropzones do have camera flyers with a standard camera course/requirement)

Central Region August, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p7FPCqbZ-M


Take a look at the above linked video and then return & read on.


THAT is any demo jumpers worst nightmare, dropping something from altitude that could hurt or even kill a spectator...it was caused by a GoPro.

At the beginning of the EAA AirVenture Oshkosh airshow this year the people from GoPro had a HUGE marketing program in place. They had a large semi sized mobile facility that had several wide screen TVs going showing all the great things one can do with this little camera.

They ALWAYS had several hundred people gathered around hoping to win a give-a-way or buying one of the units...GoPro had a great bunch of people there and in speaking with one I know they had a very successful time at the convention, I think I remember 1/4 million in sales being tossed out as a number.

One of the ways they were promoting the product was to outfit the performers with a Hero2 or more and then edit & playback that footage on the outdoor displays. Quite effective as it was very interesting to see the perspectives from the performers view ~ and the spectators just ate it up.


On the other hand...THIS grumpy ole fart saw problems from the get-go.
One of our more experienced demo jumpers was damn near out of control...'jump a cool little camera HERE, that WILL let me do just as they advertise...Be A Hero' ~YOU BET!

Problem is, although we jump with all kinds of extra stuff attached all over us, it's something we practice, something that's well thought out, and something that is actually the REASON for making the jump in the first place. . . attaching a camera with no training only serves to increase the complexity of an already edgy skydive.

It was obvious that my protests were not going to be heeded, after all I jump a camera on demos all the time and have for years.
But then again, I have 6-700 camera jumps and yes I DO turn it on and forget about it...that's obvious to anyone that's ever seen one of my demo vids!

The best I could do was sit everyone down who was jumping a camera for the time and explain a few of the issues 'we have' discussed on these forums... define & warn against GoPro-itus.

By the 2nd day of the show - it was off the chain! People filming our briefing instead of listening, discussing the best shot angle instead of the spot...on & on. A couple of guys even FORGOT gear they needed once we were on board and had to go chasing after our support van to retrieve it...we had ANOTHER long talk that evening.

It did little good, the following day a good friend, long time jumper (42 years) and one of the better demo jumpers I know...shows me his SECOND camera attached to his 'standard Protec'...it's sticking 4-5 inches out off the right side of the helmet on a mount that MUST have been designed to foul parachute deployments!

WTF...I explained how 3 possible things could happen and two of 'em were really bad. Wouldn't be deterred even after I explained in detail how well the noose he created would work and thankfully we'd have footage of his demise!

...he landed ok, but deployment riser smacked that camera so hard the impression of it is in the side of the helmet forever, not such a great shot on that one.

Time to throttle it back...I discussed with the GoPro rep some concerns the next day. Showed him my GoPro mount which is side mounted on an L bracket, with a strong bungee going over it, with a short piece of super-tack holding the whole thing to the helmet so that even IF it were to detach it wouldn't drop on the crowd....overkill the rep thought, but he did go with less that day with regard to where and how attached.

Wasn't only US, as seen in the above attached vid, the Military team also had it's problems. Let me preface by saying these we some of the coolest people and most professional demo jumpers I've ever met...we got along well. I doubt they would take offence to my using this example as a learning tool.

That sequence was only 1/3 of the way through, the flag jumper wearing the camera was supposed to turn 90 and the side-by re-docks.
He himself open and honestly admitted he was concentrating on the shot and missed this cue to turn...thankfully the flag, WITH the heavy weight....landed out in the Pyro field and not on any spectators.

The next morning the airshow briefing was quite concise about things...'Start pulling those cameras OFF the aircraft & jumpers before someone DOES get hurt....do it NOW'

Think about this for a minute...THE BEST professionals in the business were not able to 'set it & forget it' ~ as many of the Norm Kent wanna be n00bs claim they will be able to do.

Make NO mistake about it, adding a camera adds complexity...IF your don't receive training, practice with it, have the right gear to go along with it ~ just a matter of time until something unexpected happens.

It might kill you or someone else..OR it just might end up being hilariously funny. The icing on the weeks cake was the last day, my buddy 'snuck' one more camera jump in.

This time it was a low in front mount. It looked ok and we had a quick re brief on EP's & forgetting it was there. WELL...I'll have to look for it but I have the download, GREAT shot of him coming in for a landing, the sun behind giving surrealistic detail to the shadow ever increasing in size.

Right up until he no flares into a two foot deep puddle of muddy icky drainage water...face first!

Reviewing the vid...hands in the toggles never move until WAY too late, the splash is gut busting funny, especially when all ya hear is ~ 'hope these things are water proof!'


SO...

MY ~advise for beginning camera jumping~

Get good at skydiving FIRST, then get some camera training and use appropriate gear. . .be SAFE, not a HERO!


Holland Sept, 2012
It is being reported that this incident may have been camera/snag related
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Western Region Oct, 2012
Jumper had 55 jumps/Blicense. Turned on [small format camera] on the heli ride up 'so it wouldn't distract me.'
Exited the heli unstable @ 5k, tossed the PC (unknown altitude)and caught a line on the [small format camera]. Jumper was spinning fast and chopped. Main didn't release so [removed] released the helmet cutaway. Deployed reserve and was OK. Camera was OK too, asking [removed] jumper for copy of footage.

NOT AN INCIDENT
Just a worthwhile video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsEI_6cErbM

Kansas October 2012
Jumper distracted by toe camera.
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4378030#4378030

Germany Oct, 2012
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

January 2013, NorCal
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...0/skydiver-accident/
The small format camera is not related to the gear failure, yet the footage indicates the jumper was focusing more on the camera than on the jump (that ole' distraction thing again), and the instability led to a premature deployment.

March 2013 Western Region
Jumper wearing camera filming his jump partner. Jump partner deployed at 3000, camera flyer roled on his back to film the deploying partner. Stayed to long on his back and CYPRES fired when he pulled out his main to late. Main canopy caught on his [small fomat camera brand deleted] and he landed two parachutes. He got grounded for a week.

[Krip 2]

-Joey-

Hopefully the mods will do something about people like you who falsely accuse others of trolling simply because they disagree with you on a particular topic. Slander is one thing that shouldn't be allowed on this forum.

Hi comrade

There are lots of things that shouldn't be allowed thats why the thread you hijacked yesterday is gone, like it never existed.

You are what you are. Stop your whining and get your sorry butt back to trolling.

R.

One Jump Wonder

[Krip 2]

Fearjoburg

Guys - don't this dude sound an awful lot like Shah?

Just wondering.

Joye not Hellis.

BINGO except#2 aka the shah hung out in the bonfire.

This dude Crazy Ivan aka Joey is what he is and with his logic he knows he is right. His way is the only way.

Not my problem when he hurts himself. But would you like to be in the air with crazy ivan.

One Jump Wonder

[devildog 0]

monkycndo

***

And btw, it's not slander when it's written. It's libel.

Do you have any statistics to prove you are right?

No, but I have lawyers :)

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[Amazon 7]

Krip

***Guys - don't this dude sound an awful lot like Shah?

Just wondering.

Joye not Hellis.

BINGO except#2 aka the shah hung out in the bonfire.

This dude Crazy Ivan aka Joey is what he is and with his logic he knows he is right. His way is the only way.

Not my problem when he hurts himself. But would you like to be in the air with crazy ivan.

I already was in the air with one.. and have been grounded since due to injuries.

The problem with jumping or listening to a DGIT is that you too could end up in the Incidents forum.

[-Joey- 0]

Those are anecdotes, not statistics.
Many them of them describe incidents where there is no evidence they were caused by the camera, the jumper just happened to have had a camera.
Many of them are totally ridiculous non-events, like forgetting goggles. Who cares, I've jumped without goggles before, just a little more wind in the eyes.

If you want to make a solid case, cut those down to real incidents (ie AAD fires, injuries, or deaths, not "omg I forgot my goggles!"), only those which were clearly caused by the camera, and then figure out the percentage of total incidents it comprises. I guarantee that percentage will be very low if not negligible.

Skydiving is serious business

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

If you want to make a solid case, cut those down to real incidents....

Apply that to our reliance on 'landing issues' stats you point to...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[-Joey- 0]

The stats I pointed out were fatalities, so yeah, pretty sure they should be considered incidents

Skydiving is serious business

[wmw999 2,121]

So in other words, you're only interested in fatal canopy/video entanglements, and AAD fires or serious injuries where the person not only says that the camera was a contributor, but you also agree with them. Since plenty of serious incidents have the victim/participant not remembering the actual incident, yeah, you've pretty much guaranteed those numbers are going to be low.

That doesn't make you smart. It makes you intellectually dishonest in trying to prove your point.

You be whatever you want to be. Please, however, don't try to teach or "share your knowledge." That would make you both dangerous and a douche.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

-Joey-

The stats I pointed out were fatalities, so yeah, pretty sure they should be considered incidents

While you are digging out those statistics.. perhaps YOU could dig some out about all the landing incidents that resulted in Double Femurs... paraplegic ...or quadraplegic skydivers based on their trying to be the badass swooping 100 jump wonder.

We have several around here in the last 10 years I have been here on Dizzy.com who once sounded the exact same as you do... we call them D G I T's

Oh what do I know... I am old and dont have the mad sKiLlZZ that they or you so obviously do.

BUTT....... I am still here.. 40+ years later

[Ron 7]

wmw999

So in other words, you're only interested in fatal canopy/video entanglements, and AAD fires or serious injuries where the person not only says that the camera was a contributor, but you also agree with them. Since plenty of serious incidents have the victim/participant not remembering the actual incident, yeah, you've pretty much guaranteed those numbers are going to be low.

That doesn't make you smart. It makes you intellectually dishonest in trying to prove your point.

You be whatever you want to be. Please, however, don't try to teach or "share your knowledge." That would make you both dangerous and a douche.

Wendy P.

Best post in this thread..... When Wendy lays the smack down on you... You pretty much went WAY too far.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>Those are anecdotes, not statistics.

Statistics are a comprehensive set of anecdotes.

>Many of them are totally ridiculous non-events, like forgetting goggles. Who
>cares, I've jumped without goggles before, just a little more wind in the eyes.

Every fatal incident is a collection of smaller mistakes. Forgetting goggles (or your chest strap) might be the last of the mistakes that turns a potential "non-event" into a fatality.

>If you want to make a solid case, cut those down to real incidents (ie AAD fires,
>injuries, or deaths, not "omg I forgot my goggles!"), only those which were clearly
>caused by the camera.

OK. I will go through and separate out only those who caused an identifiable incident, defined as:

-an injury
-an AAD firing, out of sequence deployment or low opening
-an entanglement
-a failure to execute EP's due to camera
-a failure to put rig on correctly (and jumping anyway)


So using that we have 22 incidents:

1) November 27 2009-NorCal Area - low opening caused by camera ('shooting her friend from below')

2) December 17, 2009 –SoCal Area - injury due to filming landing

3) January 1 2010 Southeastern Region - injury - videoing friend under canopy resulting in out landing

4) February (day unknown) SoCal - no cutaway after canopy damage due to jumper capturing "cool looking video"

5)March 2010 - tandem master does not pull reserve due to desire to video the cutaway

6) April 13 2010 Western Region - cutaway with no reserve pull due to camera worries

7) April 21, 2010 Southeast Region - forgot chest strap due to camera distraction

8) June 7, 2010 South East area- tandem master does not pull reserve due to desire to video the cutaway

9) June 20, 2010 SoCal area - low pull due to geeking camera

10) June 21, 2010 - misrouted chest strap due to camera distraction

11) Date unknown, Southeastern Region - broken wrist due to inattention while talking to camera

12) July 4, 2010 - videoed landing, did not flare, broken wrists

13) Western Region (Chicks Rock) Oct 1 - low deployment due to attempting to video jump partner, landed out

14)South Eastern Region PM rec'd Nov 4 2010 - camera entanglement causes cutaway

15) Western Region Dec 13 2010 - camera entanglement causes cutaway.

16) 8-22-2011: Location unknown. - Gopro pulls jumper's reserve handle on exit

17) Western Region 10-8-2011 - entanglement under canopy, sprained wrist

18) North East Region 11-6-2011 - guy tries to film deployment, goes low, cypres fire, 2 out

19) Western Region Jan 2011 - guy tries to backfly to get his friend on video. Out of sequence deployment, premature opening.

20) Mid-Atlantic Region Feb 25, 2012 - entanglement with camera, cutaway

21) Western Region Oct, 2012 - entanglement, cutaway

22)March 2013 Western Region - filmed friend, got low, cypres fire

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

-Joey-

Those are anecdotes, not statistics.
Many them of them describe incidents where there is no evidence they were caused by the camera, the jumper just happened to have had a camera.
Many of them are totally ridiculous non-events, like forgetting goggles. Who cares, I've jumped without goggles before, just a little more wind in the eyes.

If you want to make a solid case, cut those down to real incidents (ie AAD fires, injuries, or deaths, not "omg I forgot my goggles!"), only those which were clearly caused by the camera, and then figure out the percentage of total incidents it comprises. I guarantee that percentage will be very low if not negligible.

I can't decide if you actually believe the garbage you are posting or if you are a troll (FWIW, trolling is the posting of materiel deliberately intended to provoke a response).

You want statistics?
There aren't any. Except for fatalities, there simply aren't any statistics available.
Injuries? AAD fires? Reserve rides? Two outs?

No stats available.

Even basic stuff like total jumps or even total active jumpers? (you'd need those to generate percentages).

Not available anywhere.

In your troll poll (hey, Billvon called it that), 'Twardo had a pretty good response.
(paraphrased) Go do what you want, but don't be surprised if something bad happens. When it does, don't expect much sympathy.
We've seen you too many times before.

If you are foolish enough to think that mistakes due to distraction, even simple ones like forgetting goggles, are "non-events", then I suggest you rethink your participation in this sport.
If you don't understand risk assessment and mitigation enough to realize that this stuff is "caused by the camera", I suggest you rethink your participation in this sport.

The consequences of a minor mistake may be negligible. But they can easily stack up with other minor mistakes and end up a catastrophe. It's called the "chain of events."

And if you don't realize that the presence of the camera was a rather large link in the chain of all of those anecdotes, then you really need to get a clue.

Like 'Twardo (among others) said, we've seen you before. And all the other "youse" just like you.

It's funny that the only people arguing against experience for cameras or small canopies or wingsuits are the ones who lack it.

What's not funny is how many of them realize how wrong they were. Some have a close call that wakes them up. Others have to get hurt. Some have to get really hurt. A few only realize their mistake a second or two before it kills them.

Ask Sangi. He was jumping a small canopy, but had all the arguments you are using. He had the courage to come back and admit that he was wrong. Unfortunately, his mistake cost him the use of his legs. Others weren't so lucky.

Ask Ted Nelson about self appraisal of canopy skills (something you suggested). Ask Dan Kulpa about wingsuiting too soon.
Ted had all the same arguments you do.

Dan didn't come on here and argue about wingsuiting ahead of schedule, but he got turned down by one instructor, then went "shopping" until he found one who would teach him at around 100 jumps.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DSE 3]

We'll add one more AAD fire to that mix as soon as I get a few mins to clean it/paste it.

[Ron 7]

May I suggest you read this months parachutist page 70.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

-Joey-

The stats I pointed out were fatalities, so yeah, pretty sure they should be considered incidents

You don't get it.
Specifically, which of those landing incidents are you considering...there's a couple of different issues that fall under the umbrella of 'landing incident'. There's a significant number of 'incidents' that are not listed in your numbers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239