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Tetrahedron

GoPros right off of student status?

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-Joey-

I still stand by my observation that camera-related issues are not a significant contributor to incidents. Just browsing the first couple pages of the incidents forum there are no camera-related issues at all. Just a bunch more no pulls / low cutaways / low turns. This camera thing is being way overblown and the hype is disproportionate to the actual number of incidents.

ever read the "last night a Cypres saved my life" thread started by some videoperson of this forum ?
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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-Joey-


Yeah yeah yeah and I need to go watch Sangi's bounce video... already seen it. I'm not planning on initiating any 270's at 200 feet and not pulling out even when the sight picture looks wrong so I think I'm okay there



And therein lies the issue.

You think you're OK despite many, many more experienced people on this site telling you you're wrong. That's not the same as actually being OK.

Ask yourself what you are hoping to achieve in this thread:

- Trying to convince the other posters that you're right and they are wrong? FAIL. That ship sailed a long time ago.
- Trying to come across as the big man who knows his shit? FAIL. You're just making yourself look more foolish.
- Something else? Please explain....

I been in your position on these boards before now. You know what they say about trying to teach a pig to dance....
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Believe it or not, we'd much, much rather have you be able to look at these threads and cringe (as others have at their similar threads), rather than have your friends have to look at them and say "we figured something like this would happen" (that's also happened).

No one plans on making mistake. This post was about a series of small events that nearly turned ugly for an extremely experienced skydiver and self-taught swooper. Anyone can make mistakes, and we don't always choose them. But experience can give you new tricks to deal with your (and others') mistakes when you need to.

Note: that jumper died a couple of years later on a swoop when he lost a toggle. No one is too good or experienced to die in this sport. Please develop some experience before adding too many variables to your jumps. Because with having dealt with small problems, you'll have more innate memory if you have to deal with a large one.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Did you miss Billvon's ridiculously long list of camera-related incidents?

I started jumping 5 years ago at 19 yrs old, and understand your point of view. I had it too. Eventually I had some close calls, learned some things, and watched two friends die in front of me. That will change your viewpoint. Come on man you're making the rest of us 20-somethings look bad.
"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

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-Joey-


It shouldn't matter anyway. The "kids" in this sport deserve" the same level of respect as everyone else, but I sense that many older jumpers have utter disdain for younger newer ones, regardless of jump numbers. It becomes obvious when they use phrases like "kids with GoPros" (as if all camera flyers are kids) or try to use "kid" as a put-down, as mik did. What's really going on here has nothing to do with camera safety, it's really just about animosity toward young people. The older folks don't like that they are losing their exclusivity in the sport as it's becoming more accessible.



Joey, please take it from another "kid" in this sport, we don't "deserve the same respect as everyone else. Respect has to be earned and you are not conducting yourself in a way that earns it.
I have a whole 63 jumps to my credit and have not felt any disdain or lack of respect from the "older" jumpers here or at my DZ. Quite the opposite, I have experienced nothing but respect from the older jumpers here and at my DZ because I have an open mind and am here to learn.
I can promise you that many of the "older" jumpers that I am learning from are quite a bit younger than I am in actual age, but they have far more experience than I do and are looking out for my safety.
You can bet your ass I want to strap a camera on and go get some cool videos of my own, but I'll wait the minimum of 200 jumps or longer because I'm more interested in my safety and,more importantly, the safety of others around me.
Filter out the criticism and harsh words you're reading and get to the underlying message. People are trying to tell you that you're wanting to do things that are unsafe to you and others around you. They're not trying to hold you back.
I hope this isn't falling on deaf ears.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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-Joey-

***

If you like, I will gladly provide proof of my experience.... Will you then do the same?


I don't care about your experience, I want to see mik's, and his license number. And I care more about his blatant hypocrisy than whether his info is true. But he's being pissy about me having bogus info (of course I do, this is the internet) while he clearly has bogus info. But again, it's not his bogus info that I'm calling him out on, it's his hypocrisy.

Ron


We may not know your biological age... But we do know the age level that you express yourself.



It shouldn't matter anyway. The "kids" in this sport deserve the same level of respect as everyone else, but I sense that many older jumpers have utter disdain for younger newer ones, regardless of jump numbers. It becomes obvious when they use phrases like "kids with GoPros" (as if all camera flyers are kids) or try to use "kid" as a put-down, as mik did. What's really going on here has nothing to do with camera safety, it's really just about animosity toward young people. The older folks don't like that they are losing their exclusivity in the sport as it's becoming more accessible.
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For the newbies tempted to believe that Joey might have any experience on which to base his posts…

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4487525;#4487525

May 18th.. soon getting to the point to be allowed to jump camera (post 1 in thread)
Post 4 in thread “Do I have the patience to wait until June”
Post 5 in thread “Fuck it. Ordered a Fuel” (like a kid that can’t wait to Christmas to open hidden presents?)

In this current thread, post 2 the kid says his local DZ only requires a B licence - 50 jumps to jump camera.

So I think we can safely assume that either the kid has averaged something like 100 jumps a day in the last 13 days or he is lying in his profile about 1337 jumps. Probably to try to give himself the credibility he so evidently lacks, and he attention he desperately craves.

My money is on him expecting to reach 50 jumps by June sometime (but he whinges elsewhere about weather being crap so maybe this will be delayed).

I would go along with people who suspect he is in his early 20s, despite his attitude being more akin to a kid of about 8 at times.

His demands for respect are wasted on many of the more experienced jumpers, and right so. Respect is due to people like mistercwood, linebckr83 and tracys that demonstrate a level of maturity that he cannot even begin to aspire to.

So newbies, you might want to take a leaf out of the books of the aforementioned jumpers.. and realise that most of the "old fossils" on here are providing advice that is well meaning and is designed to help pevent you from hurting yourself or others.


For the more experienced crowd..

Many people have implied that he is being a dick (in one way or another), myself included, and I stand by that assessment. However, I do wonder whether at least some of the blame lies with a DZ that apparently feels that the SIM recommendations for cameras at 200 jumps is not applicable to the mad skilz people who jump there. What attitude is this going to create amongst the kids of the sport? And it makes me wonder what else the DZ would consider to be safe. TI at 125 jumps perhaps (if they could get away with it, which is of course highly unlikely)?

It seems to me that the DZ could well shoulder a lot of the responsibility for turning out kids with Joey’s attitude and in doing so, increases the level of risk in our sport, generally. I think I will add this DZ to the list of places to avoid.


***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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fuss (fs)
n.
1. Needlessly nervous or useless activity; commotion: There was a lot of fuss on moving day.
2.
a. A state of excessive and unwarranted concern over an unimportant matter: made a big fuss over one low test grade.
b. An objection; a protest: The longer working hours caused a big fuss.
3. A quarrel.
4. A display of affectionate excitement and attention: Everyone made a fuss over the new baby.
v. fussed, fuss·ing, fuss·es
v.intr.
1. To trouble or worry over trifles.
2. To be excessively careful or solicitous: fussed over their children.
3. To get into or be in a state of nervous or useless activity: fussed with the collar of his coat.
4. To object; complain.
gravity brings me down.........

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uberchris

fuss (fs)
n.
1. Needlessly nervous or useless activity; commotion: There was a lot of fuss on moving day.
2.
a. A state of excessive and unwarranted concern over an unimportant matter: made a big fuss over one low test grade.
b. An objection; a protest: The longer working hours caused a big fuss.
3. A quarrel.
4. A display of affectionate excitement and attention: Everyone made a fuss over the new baby.
v. fussed, fuss·ing, fuss·es
v.intr.
1. To trouble or worry over trifles.
2. To be excessively careful or solicitous: fussed over their children.
3. To get into or be in a state of nervous or useless activity: fussed with the collar of his coat.
4. To object; complain.


Like the people fussing about cameras :P
Skydiving is serious business

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linebckr83

Did you miss Billvon's ridiculously long list of camera-related incidents?


A whole lot of them weren't even camera-related. They were just incidents where the jumper happened to have a camera, but the incident had nothing to do with the camera.
Skydiving is serious business

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-Joey-

***Did you miss Billvon's ridiculously long list of camera-related incidents?


A whole lot of them weren't even camera-related. They were just incidents where the jumper happened to have a camera, but the incident had nothing to do with the camera.

Completly agree with you!

Just like all the incidents with smal canopies, low turns or hook turns.
It was not the size of the canopies fault, nor the turn.
It was the ground coming to close at the wrong moment.

You rock dude.

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-Joey-

***Did you miss Billvon's ridiculously long list of camera-related incidents?


A whole lot of them weren't even camera-related. They were just incidents where the jumper happened to have a camera, but the incident had nothing to do with the camera.

I completely agree with you. I don't understand how 30 jump wonder filming his shadow and flying into the fence has nothing to with having a camera. Nor how someone goes to the cypres while filming openings. Would've happened just the same without the camera!

Or forgetting to check if his chest strap was strapped while using all his focus in the plane to make sure camera was on. The camera just happened to be with him.

C'mon dude, quit trolling. Your shit might be dangerous to newbies who don't know better. Frankly, I don't give a shit about you'r safety at this point.

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-Joey-

***Did you miss Billvon's ridiculously long list of camera-related incidents?


A whole lot of them weren't even camera-related. They were just incidents where the jumper happened to have a camera, but the incident had nothing to do with the camera.

:D:D:D

The more you interject, it becomes blatantly obvious you're auditioning for the reality show called ~ n00b without a clue'.


Anybody ever tell ya the Oppositional Disorder is one of the prime indicators for a sociopathic personality?

Another one is not caring what happens to anyone else - no concern for anyone else's well being - especially indifference to harm 'you' may cause them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a sociopath...just that some of the things you display so proudly...MAY not be quite on center bubble. Just food for thought. :)



quack quack ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I just thought I should point something out about Joey's jump numbers - he's never meant for that to be his actual count. I guess there's not many gamers on this forum, since no one else has worked it out. :D "1337" is supposed to spell "leet", a bastardisation of "elite", which is what all the pro Counter Strike players were around the turn of the millennium.

Couple his "elite" skills with his "69" years in the sport (I see what you did there!!!) and you've learnt all you need to know about widdle JoeJoe... :P

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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Did you know stooping to ad hominem attacks is one of the prime indicators you've lost an argument?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you've lost outright at this point; the final nail in the coffin is yet to be hammered in.

What I want from the next person posting from the "OMG KIDZ WITH CAMERAS ARE GONNA KILL US ALL" bandwagon is some actual statistical data in support of their claim. SHOW ME THE STATISTICS.

When the USPA put out a bunch of fear-mongering about tail-strikes in order to scare everyone into voting for their standardized wingsuit instructor program, this community correctly pointed out that the statistical data (actual number of tail strikes compared to total wingsuit jumps) didn't corroborate their propaganda.

I'm saying the same thing. Show me the actual number of reported fatalities, injuries, or other serious incidents that directly resulted from flying a small-format camera (the jumper happening to have had a camera during an incident caused by something else doesn't count) side-by-side with total jumps as well as total number of incidents. I posit that the number of incidents caused by low cutaways, low turns, and no pulls are still vastly disproportionate to the number of incidents directly caused by having a small format camera. A good look through the fatalities database and the incidents forum is clear evidence of this. Think I'm wrong? SHOW ME THE STATISTICS.

And don't give me the BS line of "oh those are just the ones that are reported lol." Because that also applies to every other kind of incident as well. So the camera incidents as a percentage of total incidents will still be the same.

The ball is in your court. SHOW ME THE STATISTICS that prove that having a small-format camera on a helmet causes just as many problems as radical downsizing or not knowing EP's and I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. But I don't believe the data supports the fear-mongering.
Skydiving is serious business

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It's not against the rules for me to fill my bathtub with petrol and juggle matches in there. Not many statistics to say I shouldn't, either.

August 20th. I've not played before, do I get first dibs on his gear if I'm closest?
You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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mistercwood

It's not against the rules for me to fill my bathtub with petrol and juggle matches in there. Not many statistics to say I shouldn't, either.



The difference is that nobody does that, so there is no data to go by. People have jumped small-format cameras ever since they were invented, but there is still relatively little data to suggest that they are a significant contributor to incidents, on the level of the other major contributors to incidents.

If you wish to refute this, then I repeat myself once again: SHOW ME THE STATISTICS.

mistercwood

August 20th. I've not played before, do I get first dibs on his gear if I'm closest?



Lol are you serious about bounce bingo? Because I think it's okay to jump a Contour after 50 jumps (which my DZ does too)? That's insane. I'm not one of the ones swooping a velo with low jump numbers. I have a relatively docile main, and have a contour that I won't even be able to use until my Cookie Fuel helmet arrives in the mail.
Skydiving is serious business

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I'll cop to the shitty analogy... :P The problem with demanding statistics is that the data you're after is mostly self-reported, so regardless of whether you think there's a case to be made - or not - it's going to be hard to show just in numbers. At that point it may be worth listening to the (multiple) people who've been jumping longer than you've been breathing saying it's maybe not so smart.

Maybe I was premature on bingo. Didn't you ask somewhere else though on how much attention dz's paid to new jumpers and what they were flying? If I remember right, you said something along the lines of wanting to know exactly where the line was so you could get right up next to it. I coupled that with the camera thing, your general attitude to basically everyone here who's disagreed with you, the maturity of your posted jumps/years and... well. Maybe not so premature. As Pops says, YMMV.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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mistercwood

I'll cop to the shitty analogy... :P The problem with demanding statistics is that the data you're after is mostly self-reported, so regardless of whether you think there's a case to be made - or not - it's going to be hard to show just in numbers.


But like I said, all incident data only reflects what is reported. So camera incidents as a PERCENTAGE of total incidents will still be the same. If it's true that cameras are a significant contributor to incidents, then there should be quantitative data to back it up.

Quote

Maybe I was premature on bingo. Didn't you ask somewhere else though on how much attention dz's paid to new jumpers and what they were flying? If I remember right, you said something along the lines of wanting to know exactly where the line was so you could get right up next to it.


That was just when I was pissed off. It was an out-of-character post.

Quote

I coupled that with the camera thing, your general attitude to basically everyone here who's disagreed with you, the maturity of your posted jumps/years and... well. Maybe not so premature. As Pops says, YMMV.


My "attitude" is that if someone is going to advocate for more draconian policies toward something that they claim causes incidents, then they better have quantitative data to back up their claims. SHOW ME THE STATISTICS that prove it's a major contributor to incidents. Nobody in any of these camera-hate-threads has been able to do that.
Skydiving is serious business

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-Joey-

What I want from the next person posting from the "OMG KIDZ WITH CAMERAS ARE GONNA KILL US ALL" bandwagon is some actual statistical data in support of their claim. SHOW ME THE STATISTICS.



You don't get it. This isn't about you, dude. It's about ME, and every other jumper on every load you may or may not have ever been on that is placed in danger because of your attitude. Please try to be humble and accept what every person on this forum is trying to say to you, or reconsider your involvement in the sport if you are unable or unwilling to listen and learn.

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Quote

I'll cop to the shitty analogy... :P The problem with demanding statistics is that the data you're after is mostly self-reported, so regardless of whether you think there's a case to be made - or not - it's going to be hard to show just in numbers.



Here's some nice statistical data:

75 posts made total
56 by concerned jumpers
19 by a bloomin' idiot

The kid can do the math.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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