I see all these topics about how students and younger jumpers...

[TribalTalon 0]

hm.. well i'm a student and i ALWAYS listen to the jumpmaster. Sure, i might bitch about it a little, but so what. i still end up doing what they tell me to do. BUT, my dropzone has alot of very friendly people, and they are all willing and wanting to help, because they see that i am there to learn, i go around asking questions seeing what everybody thinks and getting the different sides. But as a friend of mine told me, "Look, every skydiver is going to have a different idea on what you are supposed to do. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt." some very good advice, i think. its served me well so far. I think if the student shows that they will listen, and that they are enthusiastic about learning, people will be GLAD to help you out. If not, you might be at the wrong dropzone. I have already given some AFF-1 students advice, but nothing that they havent heard already, i hope. Basically, i tell them "REMEMBER TO PULL!!!" hehehe. Other then that, i'm very cautious about giving very specific advice, as i might know about the topic, but havent actually EXPERIENCED what the person might be asking about. Knowing about something, and actually experiencing something are sometimes two very different things. I'll choose the guy that has actual experience in what he is talking about over the guy who has just read about the topic online, in books, whatever, ANYDAY. just my opinion though, and be sure to take it with a grain of salt.

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[billvon 2,400]

Not gonna argue with you Ron. I gave you two warnings. Feel free to post here again after the ban's up, but for now please stick to the other forums.

[Jimbo 0]

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And maybe you should not argue with folks that have more experience than you?

**Maybe, in your opinion, I should not. I gave my opinion, and, in the end, the person I was discussing this with ended up making some good points and I recognized that. If I hadn't argued, I wouldn't have learned much.

She's got a point with this one, Ron.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[beej 0]

To all you 1000+ jump people...you know, occasionally, just occasionally, just sometimes, *some* of us '100 jump wonders who should be posting about wine and cheese parties in talkback' are in fact real heads-up, careful, safety concious, and approachable! We do listen, and dare I say, we can even give good advice on occasion (not often, but it has been known to happen!).

Ron, I dont know ya, but you sure remind me of my old math teacher from 25 years ago - Mr Sceptic Knuckles.

Ironically, I bet you are a decent guy in reality...(this damn internet...)

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[kaerock 1]

My two cents,

When I was studying martial arts, my instructors re-iterated many points, one of the most pertinent was the point that we are all students. We must all keep an open mind and approach the world as a student always ready to learn. When you have that mentality you are ready to accept new information, or information that may disagree with previously accepted truth. Many people that become very experienced in a particular field become close-minded and set in their ways...they no longer attempt to receive new information or information that may contradict with what they currently believe. This is Bad. People with less experience than you can still offer valuable information to more experienced folks. New blood brings new insight, new ideas, challenging the old, we must all be open to the XXX jump wonder that may change your entire perception.

People with thousands of jumps still go in. Often to negligence, often to arrogance. These are things that NO ONE in this sport can afford to partake of.

I *never* discount what anyone tells me, even if they are less experienced than I am. I take all information with a bit of skepticism and critically analyze *everything* people proport as truth. People are fallible and can often be wrong, this isn't limited to someone with less than 100 jumps.

Keep your ears and eyes open, cut people some slack, and if you have a stick up your butt, promptly remove it :>

-Rory *cha-ching*

P.S. Ron knows absolutely nothing about Angela's situation. She was not kicked off of any DZ, she was not kicked off of any DZ for anything that she did wrong, it was a personal beef, not deficient skill. Please do not assume that any BS he spouts about this is based in reality.

P.P.S. Angela is turning into an excellent skydiver, her skill-level is above the bar. She approaches things with an open mind and constantly seeks to improve her understanding. This is more than I can say for many skydivers :<

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[skypuppy 1]

Nightingale says "Old timers need to guide the newbies to the best of their abilities. Newbies need to listen to those who've been around a while. But nobody's going to listen to anybody if they sound like a jerk when they're attempting to educate someone."

It's obvious in this case that the person who should be educated already knew it all - enough to argue with instructors much more experienced than her... The danger then is other newbies not realizing her qualifications and taking her advice as gospel...

Ron was justified in posting those pm's if only to allow other jumpers to realize who they are taking advice from...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[crwmike 0]

That's the way it works in the 'real' world. In skydiving, I would hold the fault to be yours for refusing to hear valuable information just because it wasn't sugar coated.

A valid message is a valid message. Look past the delivery and then decide if it is bullshit or not.

Life is short. Seems a shame to further limit the experience by ignoring everything that isn't wrapped up all pretty with a bow and all.

Michael

While I'm here ... Vonnovack typically shows an admirable amount of restraint in leaving skydivers alone to say what they choose, but his deleting Ron's post for posting 'private PM's' is bullshit. He didn't attribute the author. What if he had just posted what he had been told, face to face, at the DZ?. It goes back to my first point. Delete his post for the substance of it, or leave it alone.

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If I make a mistake and you walk up to me and say "you really f-ed up that landing! It was stupid and dangerous and you better learn how to set up a good landing pattern!" frankly, they're probably going to get the finger and be told to fuck off.

However, if someone approaches and says "you look like you need a little help with landing patterns... I can help you a bit, if you like." they're going to get a completely different response, like "Sure! I'd appreciate any help!"

[fool 0]

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Vonnovack typically shows an admirable amount of restraint in leaving skydivers alone to say what they choose, but his deleting Ron's post for posting 'private PM's' is bullshit. He didn't attribute the author. What if he had just posted what he had been told, face to face, at the DZ?. It goes back to my first point. Delete his post for the substance of it, or leave it alone.

I agree with you 100% on this one, but, that being said, and repeating what has been said here 1000 times, it's not a democracy, and moderators make judgement calls. They do a good job here for the most part, and I think it was more erring on the side of caution than anything else. (although there may be some attitude adjustment thrown in there too.)

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If I make a mistake and you walk up to me and say "you really f-ed up that landing! It was stupid and dangerous and you better learn how to set up a good landing pattern!" frankly, they're probably going to get the finger and be told to fuck off.

However, if someone approaches and says "you look like you need a little help with landing patterns... I can help you a bit, if you like." they're going to get a completely different response, like "Sure! I'd appreciate any help!"

[Newbie 0]

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Just try and keep that attitude.

Most people listen till around 70-100 jumps.
By 300 jumps they think know everything and will not listen.
500-1000 they have some knowledge and they start to listen again.

I don't understand how people (the one's you are talking about) can have this attitude. The more time i spend in this sport, the more i'm amazed about how little i know and how much more there is to learn. Each time i learn something, there are about 3 new paths to learn off of that topic, and then more paths off of those 3. That's why im Newbie - i'll always be one in this sport no matter how many years/jumps i have.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Nightingale 0]

honestly, if someone approached me with a rotten attitude and told me I was screwing up, I'd probably return the attitude in kind to the bearer, and then go ask my instructors for some assistance... but that's me.

Most people, if you go out of your way to piss them off instead of being kind are just going to tell you to fuck off, and then go do their thing out of spite. An almost certain way to get someone to do something you don't want them to do is to tell them not to do it while you're being rude. Its human nature. Just because someone's new and made a stupid mistake (maybe they honestly don't know any better!) doesn't mean they shouldn't be approached with politeness.

You can talk til you're blue in the face. But, you have to get the person you're talking to to WANT to hear your message, and they're not going to want to listen if they're being cursed at, shouted at, or approached in a less than courteous manner. Its your choice to talk. Its their choice to listen. You are more likely to get them to make the choice you want them to make if you're nice.

[skypuppy 1]

I already said that in my opinion it was obvious you weren't going to change this person's opinion - therefore it became more important at that point to let people know where she is coming from so they won't run out and follow her advice first opportunity... It was no longer about teaching her, but about minimizing the damage done for others...

I agree totally with Ron's actions - I might have just given up, thrown my hands up and left, but he did nothing wrong.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[crwmike 0]

On your way to whatever afterlife that might exist, I hope you have some consolation in that you showed that rude sumbitch ...by ignoring the information. Oh my!

I've occasionally seen this in trauma/resusitation. Usually some little princess who places her own view of propriety (and thus her societally approved control over others) over the life hanging in the balance. At least in skydiving, it's more than likely just your own life.

Michael

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honestly, if someone approached me with a rotten attitude and told me I was screwing up, I'd probably return the attitude in kind to the bearer, and then go ask my instructors for some assistance... but that's me.

Most people, if you go out of your way to piss them off instead of being kind are just going to tell you to fuck off, and then go do their thing out of spite. An almost certain way to get someone to do something you don't want them to do is to tell them not to do it while you're being rude. Its human nature. Just because someone's new and made a stupid mistake (maybe they honestly don't know any better!) doesn't mean they shouldn't be approached with politeness.

You can talk til you're blue in the face. But, you have to get the person you're talking to to WANT to hear your message, and they're not going to want to listen if they're being cursed at, shouted at, or approached in a less than courteous manner. Its your choice to talk. Its their choice to listen. You are more likely to get them to make the choice you want them to make if you're nice.

[Nightingale 0]

did you actually read my post?

I said that I would check with my instructors, not that I would ignore the person's information.

[billvon 2,400]

I wanted to make a post to try to clear up the PM thing.

Shortly after Ron posted his thing containing other people's PM's, I got a message from someone asking if I could delete that PM since they had not given permission to have it posted. I did so. I then got a second message from that person saying that I had deleted the wrong PM; there were two in that post. I also got a PM from the person who had authored the other PM thanking me for deleting it. Ron's post now contains neither PM.

After talking to the people involved, I think that Ron got an OK from one poster but not the other; the person who gave the OK reconsidered after I had deleted it. I think that's where the confusion was.

Note to other posters - it's considered really bad form to post someone else's PM without their permission. There's no hard and fast rule on it, but I will always err on the side of protecting the PM's confidentiality. So if you do want to use someone else's PM, please talk to them first and then just put a note that you did.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I think that those who are ok with having their pms posted, should just post the info themselves. Why hide behind Ron or anyone else, if you have something to say on the forum, say it! don't have mommy post it for you.

Just my thoughts.
Angela.

[Nightingale 0]

on the martial arts forum where I'm a moderator, we finally had to just make the "no posting of PMs" an actual forum rule, because every time someone did it, it somehow caused a problem.

our reasoning was: if someone wanted to say something to the forum, they'd have posted it to the forum, not to a PM.

[happythoughts 0]

(This is not a response to you, you're just last on the thread)

One problem that seems to know no boundary is people who don't listen to the organizer. People of all jump numbers who won't flat track, respect breakoff altitude, safety rules, etc.

All the organizers know exactly what I am talking about. It is not only irritating, it is dangerous. I could post a huge number of examples, but can't see the point.

I just want to say that this is a sport of inches.
If you are on an outside ring and track down and dump short, then you are endangering the people behind you.
If you don't track straight and dump beneath someone...
Never get over the raft.
Whoever is in the raft has the center, get away from them.
Watch out for the camera geek.
We are all landing in direction.
This is the landing pattern for this dz.
Anything that starts out with "Never, never..."

Common sense safety rules. If people don't wish to adhere to them, then they lose the priviledge of doing that jump with those people.

[crwmike 0]

I agree with that!
Michael

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I think that those who are ok with having their pms posted, should just post the info themselves. Why hide behind Ron or anyone else, if you have something to say on the forum, say it! don't have mommy post it for you.

Just my thoughts.
Angela.

[msmithd8769 0]

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My two cents,

When I was studying martial arts, my instructors re-iterated many points, one of the most pertinent was the point that we are all students. We must all keep an open mind and approach the world as a student always ready to learn.....

I agree with you 100%. When I was an AFF student many, many years ago AFF was still the seven level progression it is now but there was also what was known as Level 8 which was "Continuing Education." I remember my instructor telling me many times during my student days "We're ALL always on Level 8, no matter how much experience or how many jumps we have, we all should always be learning."

I've never forgotten that and I think it is excellent advice that everyone can benefit from. Point well taken Kaerock.....

_____________________________
"And when the prophet shall arise who appeareth as a bird then the time of the Lord draweth nigh and the flock shall rule the earth."

[Ron 7]

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P.S. Ron knows absolutely nothing about Angela's situation. She was not kicked off of any DZ, she was not kicked off of any
DZ for anything that she did wrong, it was a personal beef, not deficient skill. Please do not assume that any BS he spouts
about this is based in reality.

Which is it? She was not kicked off? Or she was, but not for deficient skill?

Um she still got kicked off...And I know about the situation since I did get phone calls, PM's and Emails from people I trust. And I was the one that talked to the S&TA at Zhills to warn him.

And my whole point on this thread, and the reason for this thread was about attitudes...Not skill. I EXPECT someone with 100 jumps to screw up. It is how they react to that that makes them a XXXX-jump wonder.

She did screw up...By her own admission. But like I said several times I have never seen someone kicked off a DZ for screwing up, unless their was attitude when people approched them about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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But like I said several times I have never seen someone kicked off a DZ for screwing up, unless their was attitude when people approched them about it.

That's true. As a person who has had exactly that responsibility/power, I can tell you that the only people I have ever had to "shut down" were the ones who fucked up incredibly, then tried to pass the blame or tried to make excuses for repeated, wreckless actions and a "fuck off" attitude. Some people have a pretty cavalier attitude, not really giving a shit whether or not they are making nuisances of themselves. It's really easy to get away with that crap when you have a bunch of turbine dropzones within a two hour drive from your house. There are plenty of people who have been banned from dropzones, yet not many of them stay with the sport too long after they realize that they might have to drive six hours to make a skydive at the next closest podunk dropzone. It's too easy to get over on the system nowadays.

[dgskydive 0]

Good post Val. I have stayed off this site for pretty much the last month or so because of attitudes like people are displaying here.
Must new jumpers today think they know it all. I have over 700 jumps now and still learn everytime I step out the door. I am always listening to people with more experience then I. What makes new jumpers today think they no everything at less then 100 jumps? NEWS FLASH......... YOU DON'T!

SKYDIVENFLORIDA.
I have heard about your situation and trust the people that told me about it. In fact you are more famous then you know. You shouldn't be giving any advice on canopies. If you want to help someone, point them to someone that knows what they are talking about! That would be the more responsible thing to do. Instead of tellling people things that seem like fact, tell them that it is your opinion and that they may get better advice from someone with more experience.
Landing next to a plane or on the runway is DANGEROUS. No way around that. Don't try and justify it by saying "at least I didn't freak out and do a low turn" is the wrong answer. Basically you are saying "I fucked up but since I didn't kill myself or hurt anything then it is ok." WRONG ANSWER. You should just admit that you messed up and learned from the mistake and pass on the advice to others not to land on or near the runway and planes.
IMHO you should rethink your attitude about jumping. I have met many young jumpers like you in the last 10 years (I stopped jumping for almost 5 years and came back this March and have done over 200 jumps since then) and most of them end up dead or kill someone else. I have never met you personally and maybe you just come across wrong over the internet. But after everything else that I have heard from your posts and people that I trust and have been in this sport for well over 20 years. I think you should rethink the way you are going at his sport.
Getting banned by a big name DZ isn't going to help your case. Most DZ's don't like to ban people and folks know that when you have been banned it is for a good reason. Don't kid yourself by thinking that people are going to think that you got screwed by that situation.
We have all made our fair share of mistakes and done things that could have gotten us killed. The difference is what you do after that. Do you point the finger? Do you make ecuses, or do you stand up and except what you did and learn from it? Sounds like you always have an excuse for what you do. That will earn you a trip to the hospital, or worse!
From reading your posts on this site it seems you have had a lot of scary things happen in a very short amount of time. This shows that you still have a lot to learn and at this point should be sharing you rmistakes not giving advice!l

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Wow, thanks for your post. It has helped me so greatly and I now realize that everything I perceived to have happened in that situation is wrong.

Seriously, I know when i'm getting screwed, I don't need you or your trusted advisors to tell me what happened there. I know what happened, I was there, so even though you may convince everyone you speak to about this that I am a danger under canopy, you can not convince me, I was there. I did not at all say that landing near a plane was not dangerous. I simply do not believe that to be the factor which caused me to not be able to jump my canopy there. There were other issues, not my canopy flight. Rest assured that my life is not incomplete because you all think I am a danger. I am very careful and even though what has been posted here makes me look like a very bad canopy pilot, I am really not. Yes, I have made a couple of mistakes as many people have, but I am put in the spotlight time and time again and it is pretty shitty. However, i'm not about to cry about it at night. I know that I am careful, and I do not have a wreckless attitude about jumping. I do not want to kill myself or anyone else. I continue to learn and grow in this sport and plan to keep doing that.

Yes, this internet is a place where people with strong personalities come off as assholes or careless. And, when people are put on the defense, they tend to get, well, defensive. Well, so be it, I can't change that nor am I willing to go to great lengths to try. I have good instructors where I jump and I get good instruction from people I trust and who thankfully let me prove myself rather than simply banning me because a dz called them and told them I was unsafe.

I plan to be in this sport for a very long time. It sucks that I have to prove myself moreso than most everywhere I go, assuming they even let me... but I suppose I will just do that, not much else I can do at this point, is there? I should probably not even post on this site anymore, or re-register, but somehow I think that would be selling out. I am strong willed, and if you think that makes me an asshole, screw you!

Take care.
Angela.

[happythoughts 0]

You have excellent spelling and grammar.

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[AggieDave 6]

The thing is not what you did, how you did, or really what happened. Everyone screws up.

I only have a vague idea of what happened, I wasn't there, so I'll never truely know.

However, the attitude after an incidient means everything. You can learn from bad situations and such, or you can play it off and be defensive. The first will help you and people will try to help you. The second will not help you, it will only hurt you. Also, it will alienate you from people. What's bad about that is that this is a very social sport, its also a very very small sport. People all over the country know who you are and know about the supposed attitude you've put up in response to an incident. That's not going to help you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."