Nightingale 0 #26 December 20, 2003 I was thinking more of the other students, but yeah, that works too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #27 December 20, 2003 QuoteI thing you're referring to the post about flying in brakes, right? Yep, I don't think someone with 100 jumps should be giving advice....I really don't think that someone with 100 jumps and that has been kicked off a DZ for canopy control should be giving canopy advice. Is it true you lied at ZHills about what canopy you were jumping? QuoteI don't think that I was giving any harmful advice. Does not matter at less than 100 jumps and with your canopy history you might not want to give advice...Its this kind of attitude that leads folks to call people 100 jump wonders....Here you are a person with 100 jumps, that has been kicked of at least one DZ for canopy control issues (And bad enough that that DZ felt they need to call other DZ's to warn them) arguing with a guy with 1400 jumps about canopy control. QuoteI was just writing how I judged things. Maybe you were not the best person to give advice in this matter? QuoteJust because I don't have 1000 jumps doesn't mean that I don't know shit. But maybe you should not give advice given your history...And maybe you should not argue with folks that have more experience than you? QuoteWell, it was one dz who called a bunch of dzs. I don't want to argue about what was said that I did wrong or whatever. I didn't do anything dangerous at the dz. I was told that I landed too close to the plane. The winds were too high and I probably shouldn't have jumped in them, but I handled it fine and landed without incident. If the DZ thought it was bad enough to call other DZ's to warn them...Then I would think it was bad enough...Actually The event does not seem to be the problem. It might be how you reacted to it. I have never seen a DZ kick someone off for making a mistake, unless they had an attitude when they were talked to about it. QuoteI didn't get out of line twists until 900 feet and ended up crosswind on final and landed on the runway From 900 feet I can land in just about any direction I want. How were you not able to enter a normal pattern from 900 feet? QuoteWell, my canopy flight is fine, I don't need a .75w/l. Maybe you think I do, and it is fine with me if that is what you think. Honestly I don't know...But again if a DZ kicks you off, then feels like they should warn others....And I really want to know if you lied at Zhills about your canopy. So it seems clear that some think you are in danger. A PM I got about you: QuotePM deleted QuoteAnyhow, if you want to keep this going, we can do so via pm as to not make this a personal post about me. It is not a personal post about you...But it does fit into the range of this thread. I think it fits perfectly....And you did ask me why I don't respect people with 300 jumps ...And I do, just not the ones that don't listen and think they know it all. Feel free to try and clear this up.... Did you lie at ZHills? I have been told you did, but you didn't lie to me, so I don't have personal knowledge. But the fact is that you claim that you should be under a Stiletto 150 with 100 jumps. Most folks think that is a bad idea, and it seems you have had two issues in less than 100 jumps...So I would guess that they are right and you are not ready for it....I really don't think you have the knowlegde or experience to be giving advice....I have about 100 Freefly jumps...You don't see me giving freefly advice. That would be stupid of me. It seems that some don't think you should be giving advice yet....I tend to agree. Again feel free to PM or post here to clear this up...Or hell ignore it and call me an asshole. I don't care. But don't think I disrespect folks with low jump numbers cause I don't as long as they have a good attitude."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #28 December 20, 2003 It's not ALL about jump numbers. I'd listen any day to a professional meteorologist advise on wind and weather, regardless of how many jumps. I'd listen to an AME on hypoxia and other altitude related physiology issues, regardless of how many jumps. I'd listen any day to a textile engineer about the effects of UV, water and solvents on canopy fabric. When I had less than 100 jumps I wrote a piece of software for demonstrating freefall drift and separation, and which seems to have propagated far and wide - but then I am a professional physicist. But generally I wouldn't take canopy handling advice from someone that's only flown a canopy 100 times. You shouldn't share expertise before you have any.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #29 December 21, 2003 Ron, I think it's in terribly bad form to post the pm's received. I know now that I cannot trust you to keep anything sent to you in a pm private, and I have now added you to my blocked pm list. Which is, in truth, a pity, because I believe I could learn something from you. But if you lack the integrity to keep things private, than I cannot trust you. And no, I did not send any of those pm's, but firmly believe they should be edited out of your post. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #30 December 21, 2003 QuoteI know now that I cannot trust you to keep anything sent to you in a pm private, and I have now added you to my blocked pm list. Which is, in truth, a pity, because I believe I could learn something from you. But if you lack the integrity to keep things private, than I cannot trust you. Well, if you dont like it...I dont care. Block me if you like..Hell don't ever read my posts...Again I could not care. You will just lose the lessons. I did not post the names of those who sent them to me...And in truth you don't know if they care, or if I had pemission from them... So, jump to conclusions if you like..Again I don't care. So if they are not your PM's then I don't think its your buisness."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #31 December 21, 2003 I think I used the term experience....Not jump Numbers.... But for the most part SKYDIVING experience can only be gained by SKYDIVING..Which means jump #'s and time in sport. So I would rather a student get told canopy control from an instructor with 1000 jumps than you when you had 100."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #32 December 21, 2003 >So if they are not your PM's then I don't think its your buisness. Well, it is my business (sort of) and it's a pretty bad idea to post private PM's. It's not against the rules per se, but it's pretty rude. And when you air a PM sent to you in confidence about another poster on the thread, it's _really_ bad form. I know, I know, you're doing a public service by informing everyone how bad XXX is, and you might save her life etc etc. Your point has been made; it would be a good idea to drop it, and to consider carefully whether you would want someone to get hold of _your_ emails or messages and post them. (updated to add) >And in truth you don't know if they care, or if I had pemission from them... Well, I do know, so I'm deleting the PM in question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #33 December 21, 2003 QuoteI think I used the term experience....Not jump Numbers.... But for the most part SKYDIVING experience can only be gained by SKYDIVING..Which means jump #'s and time in sport. So I would rather a student get told canopy control from an instructor with 1000 jumps than you when you had 100. I don't think I suggested otherwise.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #34 December 21, 2003 QuoteWell, if you dont like it...I dont care. And that shows, often. QuoteBlock me if you like.. Done. Also blocked your other name, too. QuoteHell don't ever read my posts...Again I could not care. You will just lose the lessons. I will read your posts, should they merit my attention. Things on swooping, for example, do not, because I am no where near ready for that. You demonstrated to me a lack of integrity, and that tinges your postings for me at this point. Maybe it's my loss...but I've got wonderful teachers, who teach me well, and they will always take precedent over something I read over the 'net. QuoteI did not post the names of those who sent them to me...And in truth you don't know if they care, or if I had pemission from them... I don't want to know who they were. But did you have permission to use them? QuoteSo, jump to conclusions if you like..Again I don't care. What conclusion? That you did something in bad form? Or that I question your integrity because of it? That's my determination for my life, and I saw fit to post what I did. Deal with it, or not. Your choice. I don't really care what you think of me, my post, or my opinion of your integrity. I would like an answer to the question of if you had permission. Seeing as how you are challenging others' integrity on this thread and all... Happy holidays! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #35 December 21, 2003 Ron, I have learned much from your posts, and you are definitely trying very hard to keep us lowtimers safe. I really do appreciate what you are doing. But please, what you did to Angela is just not good. Aside from considerations of her and other people's privacy, it detracts from your argument. You made your point, it really isn't necessary to grind her to dust. Remember, you're trying to help her, not reduce her to tears. Also remember that if she hates you she will not listen to you simply out of spite. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #36 December 21, 2003 I feel I have to stick up for Ron here... I noticed the posts on canopy control before and checked out the poster's profile - at the time I was almost tempted to join in, but I thought the situation was well defused by the original instructor... Still I couldn't believe someone with that many jumps would actually contradict an instructor with more than 10 times her numbers... Now it's happened again... The problem is of course people with not much experience reading these posts and not realizing the experience level of the poster, taking the advice it offers and getting hurt. In that case it is probably a good idea for Ron to put out in the open the experience and attitudes of the poster for all to see before they make a decision to follow her advice. I've thought about this lately, and frankly I don't consider anyone with less than 1000 skydives to be experienced. Of course it may depend on where and what type of jumps you do and on an individual basis I may concede some people with 700 jumps (or even 500 or 400) in some cases might be experienced, but they would usually be people with a fair amount of time in the sport, possibly or probably a rigger, and probably have serious competition experience. And in the case of someone with less than 1000 jumps but who competed heavily in 4-way I might listen to them about turning a block or launching an exit, but probably not take advice on canopy control... I know with over 2400 jumps in 24 years I'm not the most current or up-to-date jumper there is, but I know enough to know when I'm out of my league, and how to figure out how to get where I want to be (both figuratively and in actuality).If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #37 December 21, 2003 QuoteI think I used the term experience....Not jump Numbers.... . www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=821223#821223 You write about jump numbers all over the post (#27 in this thread).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #38 December 21, 2003 Skypuppy, I respect your opinion and am just asking some qs here for clarification and to determine how certain things fit into your view of things in and maybe adjust mine if it all makes sense in the end. You mentioned Quote I've thought about this lately, and frankly I don't consider anyone with less than 1000 skydives to be experienced. I am curious what that makes people in that range to you. And by saying this are you saying that they are unfit to give advice period. I may only have ~300 jumps but I gave some minor Canopy control advice to someone (with a lot more jumps than I have) many times this summer that if he had heeded it, he would not have ended up in our Incidents forum or in the cast that he is now wearing. based on you way of thinking should I not have been giving him advice on his canopy flight? hope this doesn't sound like a challenge cause it is not supposed to be. I just find your opinion interesting and am trying to explore it further. Adrian (<300 Jump Wonder)S.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #39 December 21, 2003 No, I didn't say that someone I didn't count as experienced couldn't or shouldn't offer advice - in fact I pointed out that I might actually seek out advice from someone with less than that particular number of jumps but involved heavily in 4-way - about 4-way or some other area in which I thought they might have useful input.... However, as far as someone with <100 jumps, I wouldn't seek advice, but I wouldn't put them down if they offered - that doesn't mean I'd take it, tho'... The only time I would actively seek advice from students/novices would be for feedback on teaching/teaching technique and how to help them... It's not surprising that your friend wouldn't listen to you earlier... If they refuse to trust their own judgement and the evidence of their own eyes and stomach that they're riding the thin edge of their control, it's highly unlikely they'd trust someone else's opinion, no matter whether they had more or less jumps... It's called denial...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #40 December 21, 2003 QuoteIt's called denial... I never really thought about it that way. Mainly because the person that I am talking about isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and though he has way more jumps than I do, I have at different points in time, deemed him dangerous and refused to fly in the same airspace as him. I always chalked it (his lack of heeding advice) up to that. Denial. Interesting concept in this context. Thanks for that food for thought. AgeS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #41 December 21, 2003 Not directing this atr anyone........I like to think i personally listen to advice from everyone but whether i take or not well IMO that's a judgement call.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 December 21, 2003 QuoteWell, it is my business (sort of) and it's a pretty bad idea to post private PM's. It's not against the rules per se, but it's pretty rude. And when you air a PM sent to you in confidence about another poster on the thread, it's _really_ bad form. well you know me well enough by now to know I go for the truth, and don't care about the bull shit. QuoteI know, I know, you're doing a public service by informing everyone how bad XXX is, and you might save her life etc etc. Your point has been made; it would be a good idea to drop it, and to consider carefully whether you would want someone to get hold of _your_ emails or messages and post them. Post my PM's as long as they are in line with the topic...I don't PM secretly what I will not say publicly. Quote>And in truth you don't know if they care, or if I had pemission from them... Well, I do know, so I'm deleting the PM in question. I bet you don't.... PM me his name....Better yet show me where he said he did. I call Bull Shit. Prove to me he cares. Other wise put the PM back...Its not against the rules....And it fits this subject perfectly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #43 December 21, 2003 QuoteI don't think I suggested otherwise. Then what does this mean? QuoteIt's not ALL about jump numbers I would still rather the guy with 1000 times the experience to teach canopy control than a guy with a PHD and none."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #44 December 21, 2003 QuoteAnd that shows, often Im about the truth, and saftey...Not trying to make you feel better. Get a shrink for that. QuoteDone. Also blocked your other name, too. I only have one name. I don't hide behind BS Jumping to conclusions again? QuoteI will read your posts, should they merit my attention. Things on swooping, for example, do not, because I am no where near ready for that. You demonstrated to me a lack of integrity, and that tinges your postings for me at this point. Maybe it's my loss...but I've got wonderful teachers, who teach me well, and they will always take precedent over something I read over the 'net. Please, don't bother reading my posts. And as for lack of integrety.....Its not against the rules...And none of you know If I had permission....So you are jumping the gun again. But like I said I don't care. I get a phone call from a guy and a PM here asking me to make sure that this person does not get on a plane with that canopy at my home DZ. And you blow a fuse about it. You guys need to get off line and stop worring about DZ.com so much. You have a saftey risk posting advice....Good God people."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #45 December 21, 2003 QuoteI only have one name. I don't hide behind BS Jumping to conclusions again? Nope. Let's see. You registered under this name, w/ D17112, 3000 jumps, using a velocity 96 and a PD 113 reserve. Date of registration is March 20, 2001. There is another registered user with your full name, identical license number, 2000 jumps, using a stilleto 107 and a PD 113. Date of registration is October 17, 2001. (User has never posted....) Either you have a double/imposter with your identical license number, using very similar equipment as you have now (and you have mentioned using this gear the past...), or you have a second username. Since you're all about being "straightforward"...I think you either forgot, don't care, or dissembled. In any event, it's not "BS". QuoteAnd as for lack of integrety.....Its not against the rules... It's against my personal rules, and those are the rules I live my life by. Therefore, your demonstrated lack of integrity proves once again that you are not interested in being "straight forward" as you claimed...additionally, the baldfaced denial of a second name simply contributes to my already secure understanding of your integrity. QuoteAnd none of you know If I had permission....So you are jumping the gun again. But like I said I don't care. If you don't care, why are you belaboring the point? As for me jumping to conclusions, Ron darling, not at all. I did not ask that question without already knowing the answer... QuoteYou have a saftey risk posting advice... At no point have I refuted that, nor will I. I simply pointed out that posting pm's is not in good form; at no time did I discuss - nor will I discuss - the safety aspects at your dropzone. "Good grief" yourself. And happy holidays! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #46 December 22, 2003 QuoteQuoteI don't think I suggested otherwise. Then what does this mean? QuoteIt's not ALL about jump numbers I would still rather the guy with 1000 times the experience to teach canopy control than a guy with a PHD and none. And how is this in conflict with what I wrote: But generally I wouldn't take canopy handling advice from someone that's only flown a canopy 100 times. You shouldn't share expertise before you have any. ??? I guess you only read the first line.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #47 December 22, 2003 QuotePost my PM's as long as they are in line with the topic...I don't PM secretly what I will not say publicly. ..Of course you don't, you just post other peoples private messages. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #48 December 22, 2003 Hey Angela - I'll be in Orlando March 29- April 1st. Wanna see if we can get some jumps in together? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #49 December 22, 2003 no sir your first line was its not all about jump #'s. But if you agreed why bother replying to me? Its cause you like to argue."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #50 December 22, 2003 QuoteThere is another registered user with your full name, identical license number, 2000 jumps, using a stilleto 107 and a PD 113. Date of registration is October 17, 2001. (User has never posted....) Since you're all about being "straightforward"...I think you either forgot, don't care, or dissembled. In any event, it's not "BS". You are right...Sorry. I didn't remember this other name. And as you did post it has not been used ever. You do spend way to much time on here to know all that...It took me and another DZ.commer over 5 min to even find that other name. Anyone know how to delete an screen name? QuoteIt's against my personal rules, and those are the rules I live my life by Thank God I don't have to live by YOUR rules huh? So why waste bandwidth about it? You never had to get your panties in a wad and post on a thread about it...You could of: 1. Acted like an adult and just ignored me from now on with out feeling the need to act like a Greenie and tell me how bad I am. 2. PMed me your displeasure... Either way if you want to talk about how big an ass I am...Whine about it in TalkBack, but not in a serious forum. QuoteTherefore, your demonstrated lack of integrity proves once again that you are not interested in being "straight forward" as you claimed Lack of integrity based on your life rules, not mine. I think its worse to have someone with less than 100 jumps giving advice or acting like they know what they are doing than posting a PM from a very good friend that felt it was need to warn me about this person and their attitude.....And my post had something to do with this thread...Yours belongs in the crying and bitching department. Quote...additionally, the baldfaced denial of a second name simply contributes to my already secure understanding of your integrity. The "Baldfaced Denial" is really me not remembering something I did on Web site over two years ago, that I never used. You seem to have enough time to look at every poster here...I have a life, I jump on weekends and only post at work when I am board. So it would be stupidity at best, not an integrity issue. QuoteAt no point have I refuted that, nor will I. I simply pointed out that posting pm's is not in good form And since you have 5000 posts maybe I should listen to your experience...Im not saying it is the best thing I ever did. But it did fit the thread, and it is not AGAINST the rules. I think it is worse to have someone with 100 jumps and a history of bad moves under canopy from posting canopy advice. But if you feel like a thread saying how terrible a person I am...do it in Talkback, not here...Im sure it will be popular with all the folks with 100 jumps. And have a good holiday season yourself..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
