MakeItHappen 15 #1 March 17, 2004 Why are 'regular' malfunctions considered 'Incidents' by new jumpers? I am dumbfounded at the number of new jumpers that post stories about regular, ordinary, to be expected malfunctions as Incidents. Why do you think like that??? On student status (non-tandem jumps) your are taught about malfunctions. They are expected events. Sure they do not happen often, but they are expected and known events. They have known cures. One day you have a partial mal, cutaway, pull reserve and land safely. Normal stuff. Everything (except the main opening) went as planned. The main not opening was in your list of 'it might happen this way', so it is expected. Why is this an Incident? Maybe the mal is an incident in your life, but in the big picture of skydiving - this is to be expected. You are taught about mals from jump one. (ok-exclude the tandems). Malfunctions are a fact of life in skydiving. So why do so many of you think that ordinary, run of the mill malfunctions are Incidents? And pulling at 3500 feet is not pulling in the basement! Jeesh! .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluelip 0 #2 March 17, 2004 Probably because of Webster's 3rd definition: Incident \In"ci*dent\, a. [L. incidens, -entis, p. pr. & of incidere to fall into or upon; pref. in- in, on + cadere to fall: cf. F. incident. See {Cadence}.] 3. Liable to happen; apt to occur; befalling; hence, naturally happening or appertaining. All chances incident to man's frail life. --Milton. The studies incident to his profession. --Milward. /* Mike Coles 'bluelip' */ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #3 March 17, 2004 This is the complement to the letter in March Parachutist (Don't Sugercoat It) complaining that fatalities are not incidents. An incident is a much more common and expected occurance than that. To both complaints I say quitcherwhinin' ya nitpicker, that's what they're called. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rocketdog 0 #4 March 17, 2004 perhaps people place it under "Incidents" because moderators are upset with threads being wrongly posted ......? not to mention the description of the "Incidents" forum is very broad see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #5 March 17, 2004 For the purpose of the forums: Incidents include: malfunctions, cutaways, wraps, collisions, crash landings etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #6 March 17, 2004 the definition I read somewhere in something that may or may not be skydiving related... an incident is an occurance that COULD have reasonably resulted in personal injury, whereas an accident is the same situation that DOES end up in personal injury.... or something like that. Anyhow, I think malfunctions are indeed incidents, yes, you probably should expect them, and be prepared for them, but so should you be for an accident. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #7 March 17, 2004 Maybe they are just dense. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #8 March 17, 2004 QuoteWhy are 'regular' malfunctions considered 'Incidents' by new jumpers? Because...... QuoteIncidents Forum Posting Guidelines: Before you start a thread in the Incidents Forum or reply to post please consider the guidelines below: The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents. Most, if not all, new threads here should start with the report of an actual incident. General safety issues or small and potential incidents should be posted to the Safety and Training forum. Incidents include: malfunctions, cutaways, wraps, collisions, crash landings etc. I trust everyone will use their good judgment before starting a thread or disposing of advice. and.... QuoteMaybe they are just dense. Yes. Yes we are.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #9 March 17, 2004 Quote Maybe they are just dense QuoteYes. Yes we are ROFLMFAO. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #10 March 17, 2004 QuoteWhy are 'regular' malfunctions considered 'Incidents' by new jumpers? I am dumbfounded at the number of new jumpers that post stories about regular, ordinary, to be expected malfunctions as Incidents. Why do you think like that??? On student status (non-tandem jumps) your are taught about malfunctions. They are expected events. Sure they do not happen often, but they are expected and known events. They have known cures. One day you have a partial mal, cutaway, pull reserve and land safely. Normal stuff. Everything (except the main opening) went as planned. The main not opening was in your list of 'it might happen this way', so it is expected. Why is this an Incident? Maybe the mal is an incident in your life, but in the big picture of skydiving - this is to be expected. You are taught about mals from jump one. (ok-exclude the tandems). Malfunctions are a fact of life in skydiving. So why do so many of you think that ordinary, run of the mill malfunctions are Incidents? And pulling at 3500 feet is not pulling in the basement! Jeesh! . Hi Make it happen I think some of us "more experienced" (aka older) skydivers are just having a problem keeping up with the youth's. It's called reality, the demographics of the sport have changed from the poor vets going to school on the G.I. bill to better educated jumpers who have a better command of the english language and are willing to spend serious $$$. So the sport is going upscale The sport is going new wave. DRCP's are now practice pulls, pulling at 3500' is the basement for some of the youth's "because it's safer", old gear is anything made in the last century, Tunnel camp is a must. etc etc. Just wait until you reach your 35th birthday You'll really be out of touch. BTW congrats on your new world record, not bad for a young one R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #11 March 17, 2004 Gee does that mean I should post my cutaway on Sunday in incidents?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #12 March 17, 2004 QuoteGee does that mean I should post my cutaway on Sunday in incidents?? No, but you may. Can we all learn something from your experience last sunday? All joking aside: when you, like I did during my last chop, think something like "Oh crap, a repack - and I'm stuffed with work already" at the very moment you cut away from a malfunction it is safe to say you have a different perspective on what is going on. Some of the inexperienced readers cannot imagine anybody thinking like that, some of the experienced have thought exactly the same. Got no problem with the "My first cut away" stories on the incidents forum but am not gonna post a "my Nth cut away" story myself unless there was something out of the ordinary which surprised me and might surprise others. Knotted lines on a tandem (reply: "were the lines frayed?" reply: "Of course they were...") doesn't fall in the "learn something new" category. edited for typo "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #13 March 17, 2004 QuoteWhy are 'regular' malfunctions considered 'Incidents' by new jumpers? Maybe it's because they need to fill out a form called an "Incident report" after having a malfunction. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #14 March 17, 2004 Personally, I would post a malfunction in the Incidents Forum if I thought others might learn from it, and it would prevent others from having the same experience. I would, however, steer away from making it an emotional story and stick more to "here's what happened and why." I feel that would be much more useful and solicit more constructive replies.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #15 March 17, 2004 Indeed. Must be it! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #16 March 17, 2004 In all seriousness though, Jan... You are overlaying YOUR PERSONAL perspective, training, experience and expectations with that of a simple definition of rules for a bb discussion forum ...within which by-the-way these "incidents" (as they are being defined SOLELY for the purposes of forum posting rules) are being posted pursuant to those definitions and rules, for purposes of stimulating awareness and conversations. Why is it that you think your own personal definitions and those of these board's simple posting rules for these purposes should necessarily match? Hmmmm.... You are dumbfounded?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #17 March 17, 2004 The way that some people around here talk, death, dismemberment, and broken femurs are to be expected too, and a normal part of skydiving. Are they not "incidents", too? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #18 March 17, 2004 >not to mention the description of the "Incidents" forum is very broad Cause we're trying not to micromanage it. The incidents forum is for fatal and serious non-fatal incidents. A routine lineover doesn't really belong there, but a low cutaway from a lineover resulting in an off-field landing and a broken femur might. Use your best judgement as to what defines "serious accident," keeping in mind that the purpose of the forum is to learn from other's mistakes, not to simply report a successful cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 March 17, 2004 As described under Incidents. QuoteA forum to report, discuss and learn from actual incidents, fatal and non-fatal. Let's learn from our own mistakes honor those people who've passed on by not making the same mistakes. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #20 March 17, 2004 QuoteI am dumbfounded at the number of new jumpers that post stories about regular, ordinary, to be expected malfunctions as Incidents. Why do you think like that??? Can you honestly say that when you had 50 jumps, if you had a cutaway, you wouldn't have thought it was an "incident" (however defined)? People without the benefits of your vast experience are going to be excited when they have new experiences. That's part of the beauty of this sport. Come on. Even if you feel old and jaded, do you have to be so derisive of those who are young and excited? QuoteAnd pulling at 3500 feet is not pulling in the basement! How about pulling at 300 feet? To me, that's not the basement either. It's all a matter of perspective. Why deride others who don't share yours?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #21 March 17, 2004 Quote... It's all a matter of perspective. ... I couldn't agree more. Most CRWdogs shrug off wraps, entanglements, cutaways, etc. that many jumpers would consider life defining events. Five minutes after the dive ends and the gear is recovered the biggest question is "how soon do you think can you get (re)packed and on a load?" There was a 44-way funnel during one of the CF world record dives that resulted in 6 cutaways, but it was barely mentioned beyond "gee, that sucked", "I'm glad I wasn't in that", and "let's try not doing that again." It's not that we're complacent, unconcerned, or unsafe - in fact just the opposite is true. But it comes with the territory, is dealt with directly (usually by an immediate de-brief), and then we move on. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stateofnature 0 #22 March 17, 2004 EXCELLENT...I have 9 posts I have to backlog in that forum....see ya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #23 March 17, 2004 QuoteEXCELLENT...I have 9 posts I have to backlog in that forum....see ya You don't have to post anything. The incident forum is for informational purposes. As stated above, you don't have to post your ALL you malfunctions unless you think something can be learned from them. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #24 March 17, 2004 QuoteCan you honestly say that when you had 50 jumps, if you had a cutaway, you wouldn't have thought it was an "incident" (however defined)? I certainly did, at AFF 3 and a cutaway. One of the most amazing teachers I've ever had the priviledge to listen to and learn from - John LeBlanc - was talking about perception being what is a driving force in how one deals with things - either in the air or in life. In other words, if a cut happens at level 3, then yes, it's a huge deal. If it happens at 3000 jumps, then maybe it isn't so big. Either way, it's about life and death, and will tinge your perception of skydiving, of being in the air, and whatnot. It's how it's experienced and perceived once on the ground that can make the difference in future events. When someone newer in this sport has just experienced their first malfunction, and then are told "it's no big deal", they are devalued as people who've had a frightening experience. From that devaluation can come further comments "you shouldn't have cut from that, I handled the very same malfunction this way. You don't need to cut from that...", and then next time, their confidence is undermined, and can lead to disaster. Anyway, when I cut at level three, it was an enormous deal. If I cut in the next 100 jumps, I expect it to be enormous, as well. But when I have 3000 jumps, it may not be so enormous - may in fact have become routine. But that's for me to determine in my life later... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #25 March 17, 2004 QuoteI am dumbfounded at the number of new jumpers that post stories about regular, ordinary, to be expected malfunctions as Incidents. First, us younger jumpers don't take safety seriously enough. Now, we're taking it too seriously? QuoteWhy do you think like that??? Car accidents happen all the time, too. It's a little different when it happens to you, though. Maybe us younger jumpers are too self-centered and think that what happens to us is too important, but I don't see why paying attention to malfunctions (especially for those who jump elliptical canopies) is a reason for a post saying, "Shame shame." QuoteMalfunctions are a fact of life in skydiving. I agree. Just because it's a fact of life doesn't mean that we can't post about it and learn from it. We can accept them but still try to prevent them. Also, as with anything, if you don't like it but Sangiro allows it, don't read it. Not clikcing on "I just had a cutaway," would probably take less effort than complaining about the thread "I just had a cutaway."There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
