Signing-Off to Let Your Minor Kid Jump..?!

[somethinelse 0]

Funny conversation came aboutat the DZ this weekend about my little kid's growing enthusiasm- ("I'm gonna skydive someday") and the appropriate age to let her take her first tandem.

I was told by one guy that his youngest tamdem ever was 8-years-old. WOW. My kid looked at me with a huge smile...

I'm thinking that my kid SHOULD be at least a young teen, first, just that so there'd less likely be a freak out or create a lasting fear.

Anybody got experience and good advice about this kind of thing?

thanx- LuLu

[billbooth 10]

While taking children tandem is not necessarily dangerous in a physical sense, it is extremely dangerous in a legal sense, since a waiver signed by even both parents is basically worthless. So, it might be difficult to find a DZ foolish enough to let people jump without valid waivers.

[outlawphx 1]

Quote

While taking children tandem is not necessarily dangerous in a physical sense, it is extremely dangerous in a legal sense, since a waiver signed by even both parents is basically worthless. So, it might be difficult to find a DZ foolish enough to let people jump without valid waivers.

What changed? I did an underage tandem in '92 on a Vector tandem rig, and my parents signed an underage waiver. Doesn't the USPA currently allow 16 year olds to jump with parent's consent?

[airtwardo 6]

I'm a VERY over protective parent...I see it as my responsibility to try to keep my kids as much out of harms way as I can. I also try to nurture and encourage them.

But they are kids...they don't always know what's best for them, they don't have my experience
or judgment, and I have to decide how best to guide them to give 'em the best chance at making the 'four score & ten'.

Skydiving as a minor isn't it.

As seen in a very recent incident, a tandem passenger died...on a jump where nothing was done wrong.

It can happen, and it does! A kids sees it as a carnival ride, they 'trust' nothing can happen to them because WE as parents try to instill in them,
that we'll see to it nothing WILL harm them...

Sure the odds a small % that anything will happen, but if it did...it's 100% sure that I failed them as a parent. I personally can't conceive the thought of my child's broken body before me, KNOWING that I knew there was even a slight chance they would be injured...and I let them do it.

If as an 'adult' THEY choose to skydive, drink to excess, take drugs...WHATEVER...it's THEIR decision as a somewhat informed 'adult'.

To add on that note~ I also never push anyone into jumping. Almost ALL of my S/O's in the past have made at least a few jumps...but I never 'pushed' them into it and always assured them they didn't have to do it to be 'with' me, and I certainly wouldn't think anything less of them for NOT trying it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

Quote

While taking children tandem is not necessarily dangerous in a physical sense, it is extremely dangerous in a legal sense, since a waiver signed by even both parents is basically worthless. So, it might be difficult to find a DZ foolish enough to let people jump without valid waivers.

What changed? I did an underage tandem in '92 on a Vector tandem rig, and my parents signed an underage waiver. Doesn't the USPA currently allow 16 year olds to jump with parent's consent?

From a legal standpoint, USPA has nothing to do with it. This is a state law liability issue. Here in PA, a waiver signed by both parents is worthless. If a child is injured, as soon a he/she turns 18, they can repudiate the release agreement and sue everybody, including their parents for their injuries. Parents cannot sign away a child's rights in most states.

[TALONSKY 0]

If you want to give your son the experience of skydiving there is always wind tunnels. I have taken my 9 year old son to the wind tunnel and he had a great time and it compared to a skydive much cheaper with video and a t-shirt it was $80.00 for 2 minutes.
Kirk

[Elisha 1]

Quote

While taking children tandem is not necessarily dangerous in a physical sense, it is extremely dangerous in a legal sense, since a waiver signed by even both parents is basically worthless. So, it might be difficult to find a DZ foolish enough to let people jump without valid waivers.

As the esteemed all-knowing one said.

The DZO at my former home took the 12-yr old daughter of a student (well, A License holder now) on a tandem. She was very tall and thin for her age. She basically whined and begged her dad and he caved, but with the stipulation that she would be an indentured servant for the next two months and be in trouble if she bragged to her sister. Everything went fine and she had a blast, but again, there are much bigger legal risks.

[BIGUN 1,090]

In addition to what chuckbrown said, imagine the negative PR and wide-spread ramifications if the recent tandem incident (or any tandem incident) had been an 8, 10, 12... year-old. Then, we can discuss the criminal charges to the parents, the DZO, staff, etc. What's it worth? $30.00, $75.00 to take that kind of chance? Just say, "No."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Guest]

A big part of this sport to me is the notion that I am accepting responsibility for my own actions. The kinds of injury and harm that can befall one in this sport are (imho) usually abstract concepts to children and young adults. That's why there's no way I would let the decision to jump or not fall to a minor. I'd take it out of their hands and say "no."

Also - what Talonsky said above - tunnels are fun, and it's not lost $$ either. If they go on to jump they'll be ahead of the curve if they already have tunnell time.

.02
Blue skies

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Elisha 1]

Quote

A big part of this sport to me is the notion that I am accepting responsibility for my own actions. The kinds of injury and harm that can befall one in this sport are (imho) usually abstract concepts to children and young adults. That's why there's no way I would let the decision to jump or not fall to a minor. I'd take it out of their hands and say "no."

.02
Blue skies

Exactly. While I'm not going to criticize those that have taken minors (not <18, but the real youngsters), the Nanny 911 firm 'No' is the safe bet.

[TALONSKY 0]

There are quite a few issues with taking a child skydiving.
1) Liability, as Bill Booth has mentioned before there is no waiver that would allow a child or parents to sign away the rights of that child. So lets play devils advocate and say the skydive goes wrong and the child is either killed or a quadriplegic for life. They ( by they I mean any of the childs relatives, it not just the parents) could sue the DZO, the instructor, the pilot, and the manufacturer of the of the tandem rig used in the skydive.
2) Harnessing them up. My son is 4’ 9” and 76 LBS he is too small to fit into our smallest harness. On a rainy Saturday, I just wanted to see how small of a passenger I could fit in the harness for furture referance since some females are pretty small and can get in the under 5' catagory so I tried it on my son.
3) This is just my personal one but I feel that something’s should be left till a child matures more. I feel that skydiving is an experience that should be held for a more mature teenager/ young adult just as sex and drinking should be too.

[gemini 0]

Seems like this thread came up earlier this year, but it is worth repeating:

In Texas, a lawyer can petition the court and intervene on behalf of ANY minor by claiming the parents/guardians were negligent to allow the minor to participate in such activity. So even if the parents and all relatives don't sue, some ambulance chaser can intervene without the parents/guardians permission and sue the socks off the DZ, tandem instructor, aircraft owner, parachute manufacturer, etc.

Blue skies,

Jim

[headoverheels 292]

Let them make their own decision, when they can legally sign a waiver.

[hexadecimal 0]

If a parent really wants to sign off to let their kid do a potentially dangerous tandem, it's their choice I guess... though letting a kid under 13-14 do it seems pretty crazy to me since it's pretty unlikely that a kid that young would be able to fully understand the potential risk involved.

As for letting underaged kids jump solo... that's insane. I sure as hell wouldn't get on a load with one.

[catfishhunter 1]

I remeber seeing some place where someone in Australia took their 5 year old Daughter for a Tandem. The Little girl had her own jumpsuit and specially made harness etc.. She look way to cute
Also I would "assume" the Mullins Kids did Tandems well before the age of 10 since they all have 1000's of jumps before they even turned 16..

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[somethinelse 0]

How COOL!

TUNNEL TIME!
Now that IS a great idea.
I will check into that and dicuss it & when a trip to a southern dz is a future reality I WILL check into doing that with my kiddo. Hmmm....

Thanx - LuLu

[JerryBaumchen 1,069]

I recall that last year a DZ operator in the Florida Keys took his then less than 1-yr old on a tandem. The article when on to say how the kid really enjoyed it. Well, that was not how I saw the photo; but who am I to say?
There is a lot in parachuting that I do not agree with Bill Booth on but I am side by side with him on this one.

[TALONSKY 0]

It was a really great experience the instructor worked well with my son. To get into the tunnel the instructor stands on the grate and has the child start to lean out from the doorway. The instructor kind of helps them lean out on to the air and then they are flying. The instructor stands on the metal grate holding onto the child lightly will the child is flying. They will give the child hand singles to fix their body position. Then after a minute they lead the child out of the tunnel and kind of do a short little demo for them to see and then the child gets to go back into the tunnel again. It was really safe and fun.
Kirk

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

If a parent really wants to sign off to let their kid do a potentially dangerous tandem, it's their choice I guess... though letting a kid under 13-14 do it seems pretty crazy to me since it's pretty unlikely that a kid that young would be able to fully understand the potential risk involved.

But yet we let them do scores of other dangerous activities. We let them ski/snowboard unwatched, surf in the ocean, bicycle to school (after teaching them stupid crap like riding on the sidewalk). Until recently, getting a license to drive was part of turning 16, even though the vehicular death rate far exceeded the benefits of letting them drive. Thanks to PADI, kids are diving before they're 10. Equestrian? Little girls on ponies.

Somehow all these actiivities are perceived as 'safe.' Skydiving at 16 doesn't seem farfetched at all with all this considered, aside from the legal considerations for the DZ and folks like Bill Booth. Are these other sports large enough to get legal protection via legislation, or are they just big enough to pay for insurance?

[DanglesOZQld 0]

14 year old tandems in Australia are both allowed and done all the time and I see no problem at all with this continuing.

Sometimes there are harness issues with the smaller persons of this age group but rarely.

I think anyone who is around 12 or younger is not going to appreciate the experience - might as well give them a few more years and enjoy the jump fully when they do it!

BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[Beverly 1]

Hi Lulu,

We don't have the "i am going to sue my parents" mentality here, so we are in a better position I think.

Our TM took his son who had been a DZ kid from day dot on his first tandem when he was 3 and a half.
He had been in the plane a couple of times, had his own FS jumpsuit with grippers, and the only 3 year old to know what an alti is and how it works.

He is now 6 and has done 3 tandems already.
His dad only takes him when he asks to jump.

He had been nagging for a while before the first one!

He was on TV as well as the youngest kid to have done one here. The same TM did the oldest at 90 years old.

My niece has been nagging for years (from age 6/7), but her mom won't let her, so I will probably leave it till she is older and then I can guardian sign for her.

If the kids are cool with it, i say let them jump.

You buy them heely's and skate boards, which can do as much damage really.

Mu opinion, Let them live and experience life. We don't know how long they are here with us.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[airdvr 200]

My 14yo son rode co-pilot on a couple of lifts last year. Since then he's been bugging me on and off to do a tandem. I thought it was really neat......then I watched the Otter crash at AerOhio from under canopy and had to re-think the whole thing. Although the pilots survived I have my doubts if anyone in the back would have,

I think we, as jumpers, tend to minimize the risks. We get comfortable in an environment that is just not natural to most people and is inherently dangerous. Do we then assume that it's OK for everyone else? We don't recognize the dangers as being very real but they are...and not just the jump itself. You don't have to look very far in the incidents to see planes trying to get us long before we ever get to altitude. I say let your kids wait and make their own decision. You know it's a high risk activity and you've made the personal decision to accept it...kids aren't old enough to make that decision for themselves.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

But yet we let them do scores of other dangerous activities. We let them ski/snowboard unwatched, surf in the ocean, bicycle to school (after teaching them stupid crap like riding on the sidewalk). Until recently, getting a license to drive was part of turning 16, even though the vehicular death rate far exceeded the benefits of letting them drive. Thanks to PADI, kids are diving before they're 10. Equestrian? Little girls on ponies.

Somehow all these actiivities are perceived as 'safe.' Skydiving at 16 doesn't seem farfetched at all with all this considered, aside from the legal considerations for the DZ and folks like Bill Booth. Are these other sports large enough to get legal protection via legislation, or are they just big enough to pay for insurance?

That was a really good post! Where you are wrong though, in some parents cases, is that there are a lot of over-protective/sheltering parents out there who don't let their kids ride bicycles without helmets and who don't let them do snowboard unsupervised. In my opinion those are the only people who could possibly have a problem with allowing their 16 year-old to do a tandem or sit through a FJC. If you can drive a car, then you can definitely skydive.

Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Where you are wrong though, in some parents cases, is that there are a lot of over-protective/sheltering parents out there who don't let their kids ride bicycles without helmets and who don't let them do snowboard unsupervised.

I think it would suck to be a kid now, because when it comes to perceived dangers (in particular, violence at schools), the sheltering instinct is in overdrive. A broken arm is now a near death experience, not a common accident of childhood.

Certain risks gets too much attention, others are completely ignored. I hear there is a strong move to ban heading the ball in soccer - might cause brain trauma. How did we ever manage in the (for me, not too distant) old days?

[wmw999 2,163]

More kids died in those days. Each was a tragedy, and parents really really don't want their kids to die. Now that we don't mostly have to worry about kids dying from pneumonia and polio and dysentery, we can worry about injuries.

BTW -- a kid who's seen his or her parents drive every day, and has really integrated the motions into what they're familiar with, is a good bet to learn how to drive. A kid who's been around skydiving all their life is probably a pretty good bet to let skydive as a minor.

But in either case, if they're coming into it cold, it's more worrisome. Because their cup of knowledge really doesn't have that much in it, and that's what we use to base decisions on.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)