bigway 4
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I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...
NickDG 23
That was very well thought out and written . . .
>>The fact of the matter is that the WFFC is a business<<
The problem is staring us right in the face.
I was at an early PIA convention and in one of the seminars a major manufacturer began his lecture thusly – “Now that we can all agree that skydiving is a business . . . “
I didn’t hear the rest of it as I got up and walked out - and I made as much noise as I could doing it.
When Roger ran the convention back in the day it was just three trucks, a couple of big tents, a few big airplanes and a rock band in a empty field in Freeport. And essentially you could jump whatever gear you wanted, open at whatever altitude you wanted, climb all over the aircraft in flight and be in whatever state of consciousness you wanted while doing it. This is where the big kids went to play. They went to get away from the big game of, “May I,” that skydiving was becoming at their local DZ.
But something more than the times have changed . . . We changed.
Jumpers today (I know that sounds like, “these kids today,”) cannot handle that type of freedom. And like children with no imaginations they cannot find the fun on their own. Why is Bridge Day, the BASE event held annually for the past 26 years in West Virginia always maxed out in attendance? What’s there that isn’t anywhere else? The jump fees are high and the hotels are overpriced. There are bridges to jump all over the world so why spend the booty to travel and stay in West Virginia? Sure, there is a Trade Show and vendors of BASE equipment and toys but it’s small and no one would not go, if it wasn’t there. People go to Bridge Day year after year because it’s a happening thing. Miss a year and you feel left out.
The Convention is obsolete – a dinosaur – and only because it didn’t stay true to its roots. Someone up board mentioned Oshkosh and you know what most people do there – nothing – they sit in their lawn chairs and watch airplanes, drink, and barbecue content just to be among so many like-minded friends both old and new. For that one time period Oshkosh becomes the busiest airport in the world. The Convention should also be, during its run – the biggest DZ in the world. And we should be content with just being together.
Here’s my plan - Stop catering to newbies (They get enough of that at the local DZ) and make the Convention for people who’ve been around the longest, the ones who don’t need their hands held, the ones who when they need new gear, don’t need 30 vendors to choose from, they just pick up a damn phone and order.
The convention really only has one thing to offer – and while organizers are probably right now brainstorming new ideas (“I got it! We’ll have Hooter Girls serving beverages on the way to altitude!”) none of those things will work. The only thing that can save the Convention is the thing that made it in the first place – just bring back the freedom . . .
And let the Brothers go!
NickD
BASE 194
>>The fact of the matter is that the WFFC is a business<<
The problem is staring us right in the face.
I was at an early PIA convention and in one of the seminars a major manufacturer began his lecture thusly – “Now that we can all agree that skydiving is a business . . . “
I didn’t hear the rest of it as I got up and walked out - and I made as much noise as I could doing it.
When Roger ran the convention back in the day it was just three trucks, a couple of big tents, a few big airplanes and a rock band in a empty field in Freeport. And essentially you could jump whatever gear you wanted, open at whatever altitude you wanted, climb all over the aircraft in flight and be in whatever state of consciousness you wanted while doing it. This is where the big kids went to play. They went to get away from the big game of, “May I,” that skydiving was becoming at their local DZ.
But something more than the times have changed . . . We changed.
Jumpers today (I know that sounds like, “these kids today,”) cannot handle that type of freedom. And like children with no imaginations they cannot find the fun on their own. Why is Bridge Day, the BASE event held annually for the past 26 years in West Virginia always maxed out in attendance? What’s there that isn’t anywhere else? The jump fees are high and the hotels are overpriced. There are bridges to jump all over the world so why spend the booty to travel and stay in West Virginia? Sure, there is a Trade Show and vendors of BASE equipment and toys but it’s small and no one would not go, if it wasn’t there. People go to Bridge Day year after year because it’s a happening thing. Miss a year and you feel left out.
The Convention is obsolete – a dinosaur – and only because it didn’t stay true to its roots. Someone up board mentioned Oshkosh and you know what most people do there – nothing – they sit in their lawn chairs and watch airplanes, drink, and barbecue content just to be among so many like-minded friends both old and new. For that one time period Oshkosh becomes the busiest airport in the world. The Convention should also be, during its run – the biggest DZ in the world. And we should be content with just being together.
Here’s my plan - Stop catering to newbies (They get enough of that at the local DZ) and make the Convention for people who’ve been around the longest, the ones who don’t need their hands held, the ones who when they need new gear, don’t need 30 vendors to choose from, they just pick up a damn phone and order.
The convention really only has one thing to offer – and while organizers are probably right now brainstorming new ideas (“I got it! We’ll have Hooter Girls serving beverages on the way to altitude!”) none of those things will work. The only thing that can save the Convention is the thing that made it in the first place – just bring back the freedom . . .
And let the Brothers go!
NickD
BASE 194
ChrisL 2
Quote
Jumpers today (I know that sounds like, “these kids today,”) cannot handle that type of freedom. And like children with no imaginations they cannot find the fun on their own.
Wow! Not only was that condescending, it was downright insulting
__
My mighty steed
My mighty steed
billvon 2,400
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>just bring back the freedom . . .
That's an interesting perspective.
I've never thought of the WFFC as an especially "safe" place. That might be because I started going in its heyday (1993) and I'd see people cut each other off all the time, collide under canopy, land in the tent area etc. I mean, you can count on one fatality an event; it's strange that world record events, with 400 people using oxygen and pushing altitude and breakoff limits, are getting safer overall than a boogie. (To be fair, there are far more jumps going on at the convention.)
Lately there's been some pressure to portray the convention as an excellent (and safe) place for lowtime jumpers to come. I'm even a part of the effort to do that - I help organize jumps for lowtimers who show up not knowing how to do RW (or just wanting lower pressure jumps.) But I've never seen the convention as a particularly good place for a newer jumper to come to learn.
I think you're right that there is a concerted effort to make it at least seem like a safe, regulated place. I remember the big stink a few years back when a jumper landed a Mr. Bill in the main landing area, and how nude jumps had to be planned with a lot more care lest the wrong authorities see the landings. I know several people who want to attract newer jumpers. Last year we even had a way for new AFF grads to jump at the convention - with more oversight by instructors/organizers.
Is this a good thing or a bad thing overall? I don't know. It's surely good to not have as many people die, but we don't seem to be achieving that even with the the addition of more oversight. And as you mention, there may be people who avoid it for that very reason.
That's an interesting perspective.
I've never thought of the WFFC as an especially "safe" place. That might be because I started going in its heyday (1993) and I'd see people cut each other off all the time, collide under canopy, land in the tent area etc. I mean, you can count on one fatality an event; it's strange that world record events, with 400 people using oxygen and pushing altitude and breakoff limits, are getting safer overall than a boogie. (To be fair, there are far more jumps going on at the convention.)
Lately there's been some pressure to portray the convention as an excellent (and safe) place for lowtime jumpers to come. I'm even a part of the effort to do that - I help organize jumps for lowtimers who show up not knowing how to do RW (or just wanting lower pressure jumps.) But I've never seen the convention as a particularly good place for a newer jumper to come to learn.
I think you're right that there is a concerted effort to make it at least seem like a safe, regulated place. I remember the big stink a few years back when a jumper landed a Mr. Bill in the main landing area, and how nude jumps had to be planned with a lot more care lest the wrong authorities see the landings. I know several people who want to attract newer jumpers. Last year we even had a way for new AFF grads to jump at the convention - with more oversight by instructors/organizers.
Is this a good thing or a bad thing overall? I don't know. It's surely good to not have as many people die, but we don't seem to be achieving that even with the the addition of more oversight. And as you mention, there may be people who avoid it for that very reason.
slug 1
Hi Bill
For some reason the Boss (wife) keeps reminding me that bigger isn't always better
There's been lots of wineing about the planes, vendor's, weather etc but safety is a big issue.
The bussiness of skydiving works on efficiency & volume. These days there are lots of different disciplens, falling at different rates and opening at different altitudes.
In order to get the max # of jumps/day to make "everyone" happy. The seperation between airplanes is cut to a minimum. Someone of the first stick opens high and someone from the next plane in the pattern opens at reguler altitude
. add low experience jumpers into the mix & lots of canopies in the air, Shit happens![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
Read the waiver, business is business
It used to be if someone did something stupid jumping the only person they hurt was themselves and their loved ones. Now do something stupid and you can take another jumper with you. Eight way head down on a walk up load because there's a "shortage" of L.O.s
R.I.P.
For some reason the Boss (wife) keeps reminding me that bigger isn't always better
There's been lots of wineing about the planes, vendor's, weather etc but safety is a big issue.
The bussiness of skydiving works on efficiency & volume. These days there are lots of different disciplens, falling at different rates and opening at different altitudes.
In order to get the max # of jumps/day to make "everyone" happy. The seperation between airplanes is cut to a minimum. Someone of the first stick opens high and someone from the next plane in the pattern opens at reguler altitude
. add low experience jumpers into the mix & lots of canopies in the air, Shit happens Read the waiver, business is business
It used to be if someone did something stupid jumping the only person they hurt was themselves and their loved ones. Now do something stupid and you can take another jumper with you. Eight way head down on a walk up load because there's a "shortage" of L.O.s
R.I.P.
Oooooo...me likey....someone with the balls to come out and say it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
PhreeZone 15
Nick, when was the last time you were at the convention?
I seem to remember the highest attendence was in the 90's, years after Roger had stepped away and the current management had stepped in.
I seem to remember the highest attendence was in the 90's, years after Roger had stepped away and the current management had stepped in.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
What a long ass post
You're kidding, right? Did you not see the big-ways planned for next year? One of the reasons I'm going is so that I can do some more jumps with Roger Ponce. And wasn't Airspeed there last year? Can you get much better organizing than that?
The last time I jumped there, I didn't have a problem with getting on freeflying loads, and I don't even fly headdown. Blah blah blah...it's because I'm a girl...blah blah blah. I don't buy that. They could probably use a few more organizers, but I didn't see it being all that traumatic.
I never went to the Convention for anything other than the jumping, and I've had a fantastic time every time I've jumped there. The organizing has always been top notch. (Granted, I'm not into the wingsuit thing, so maybe that does suck...)
My opinion which counts for absolutely nothing.....it's probably a little bit of everything bringing the attendance down. I won't travel to a place like Skyfest since I have plenty of places to jump around my home, so I can understand why people don't travel as much anymore. I imagine there are people who go to boogies only based on the vendors. I imagine there are people who only go for the jet. Once again, I'm not one of them because, well, specialty aircraft doesn't add anything to my life. I wouldn't travel to Skyfest even if they brought a blimp in. My other theory is that skydivers are changing. My generation isn't the type that's okay with tenting/peeing in the woods for a week straight (well, some of us are, but there are quite a few people who want a big ol' stall to themselves.)
I've always had a blast at the Convention. It always gives me warm, fuzzy feelings when I walk up to the organizer tents and see the same people every time. The first Convention I went to will always be a really special memory for me, and I hope that everyone in the sport has something like that. It really is cool to be young in the sport and meet so many people from all over the place.
Quotethe days of the good ole' big ways are over for the most part.
You're kidding, right? Did you not see the big-ways planned for next year? One of the reasons I'm going is so that I can do some more jumps with Roger Ponce. And wasn't Airspeed there last year? Can you get much better organizing than that?
The last time I jumped there, I didn't have a problem with getting on freeflying loads, and I don't even fly headdown. Blah blah blah...it's because I'm a girl...blah blah blah. I don't buy that. They could probably use a few more organizers, but I didn't see it being all that traumatic.
I never went to the Convention for anything other than the jumping, and I've had a fantastic time every time I've jumped there. The organizing has always been top notch. (Granted, I'm not into the wingsuit thing, so maybe that does suck...)
My opinion which counts for absolutely nothing.....it's probably a little bit of everything bringing the attendance down. I won't travel to a place like Skyfest since I have plenty of places to jump around my home, so I can understand why people don't travel as much anymore. I imagine there are people who go to boogies only based on the vendors. I imagine there are people who only go for the jet. Once again, I'm not one of them because, well, specialty aircraft doesn't add anything to my life. I wouldn't travel to Skyfest even if they brought a blimp in. My other theory is that skydivers are changing. My generation isn't the type that's okay with tenting/peeing in the woods for a week straight (well, some of us are, but there are quite a few people who want a big ol' stall to themselves.)
I've always had a blast at the Convention. It always gives me warm, fuzzy feelings when I walk up to the organizer tents and see the same people every time. The first Convention I went to will always be a really special memory for me, and I hope that everyone in the sport has something like that. It really is cool to be young in the sport and meet so many people from all over the place.
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning
streaker 0
Well I guess I'm sad to see so many people with gripes about the WFFC. Lot's of people work their ass off to make the event happen.
Has attendance declined since the 90's? Yes. Has skydiving in general declined since the 90's...just ask USPA.
Is the WFFC still going to be the biggest boogie in the world? Without a doubt.
Are there other great boogies out there? Of course. This year besides WFFC it's Couch Freaks for me. Next year, Jay hope to see you at Skyfest.
Can the WFFC be improved? Sure, but all the improvements that can be made need dedicated staff and hard working volunteers to make them happen. Got some time?????
So to all that are worried or just like to whine....get over it and come jump your ass off.
Beautiful Landings!
Streaker
Have a yippee ki ya day!
NickDG 23
>>Nick, when was the last time you were at the convention? <<
1982 . . .
NickDBASE 194
1982 . . .
NickD
BASE 194
QuoteI wouldn't travel to Skyfest even if they brought a blimp in.reply]
What if I brought 2?
QuoteQuoteI wouldn't travel to Skyfest even if they brought a blimp in.reply]
What if I brought 2?
I didn't mean it as a knock on Skyfest. It sounds like an absolutely fantastic boogie. I just don't want to travel for boogies....well, except maybe the Summer Solstice boogie in Alaska one of these years!There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning
bigway 4
Is the WFFC still going to be the biggest boogie in the world? Without a doubt
Before you think i am moaning.... I like your post, it also puts me in my place like many other posts here. Bit of a reality check.
The statement above though, I would like to ask you what you base that upon?
Is that numbers of jumpers or biggest as in the best?
Anyway, i am over my gripes with it all. Some good people have pulled together and are bringing an excellent amount of demo and stock gear down and that is me sorted. Shame Birdman will not be there, i do not have my hopes up about the jet, never have, never will but i would love to jump it.
I hope someone gets a helicopter sorted out and i also hope there are a shitload of ice lollies.
Despite how i have come off, i think it will be a blast, i just really hope the novelty planes are there, not so much as it matters what i jump from but this year is the end of 10 years of travelling and this is my last trip. Where i come from we dont get the chance to get to jump out of stupid shit so it would make a perfect end to ten years of backpacking the world going to the States and jump some crazy ass machines.
Anyway, see you all there.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.
Before you think i am moaning.... I like your post, it also puts me in my place like many other posts here. Bit of a reality check.
The statement above though, I would like to ask you what you base that upon?
Is that numbers of jumpers or biggest as in the best?
Anyway, i am over my gripes with it all. Some good people have pulled together and are bringing an excellent amount of demo and stock gear down and that is me sorted. Shame Birdman will not be there, i do not have my hopes up about the jet, never have, never will but i would love to jump it.
I hope someone gets a helicopter sorted out and i also hope there are a shitload of ice lollies.
Despite how i have come off, i think it will be a blast, i just really hope the novelty planes are there, not so much as it matters what i jump from but this year is the end of 10 years of travelling and this is my last trip. Where i come from we dont get the chance to get to jump out of stupid shit so it would make a perfect end to ten years of backpacking the world going to the States and jump some crazy ass machines.
Anyway, see you all there.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.
mx757 4
bigway quit whinning about everything just go to damn WFFC and have fun!
Bravo.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
AndyMan 7
QuoteThe last time I jumped there, I didn't have a problem with getting on freeflying loads, and I don't even fly headdown.
Val, I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but you're a blonde girl.
Most skydivers don't get invited on stuff nearly as much as you do.
I think whenever I show up at large skydiving gatherings, i'll make sure to bring my wife. That way she'll get invited on all the cool stuff, and hopefully she'll bring me along, too.
_Am
__
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
QuoteQuoteThe last time I jumped there, I didn't have a problem with getting on freeflying loads, and I don't even fly headdown.
Val, I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but you're a blonde girl.
Most skydivers don't get invited on stuff nearly as much as you do.
Uhh...what stuff have I got invited on that other skydivers couldn't? (In all fairness, there were lots of blonde women on JFTC and men weren't allowed!) Absolutely anybody can get organized in Tent Three (is that the number this year? I can never keep up.) Plus, well, I'm offended that you think it's my gender and not my skills that gets me on loads. At the Convention, I couldn't get on just any freeflyer's loads because, well, the one's that I've seen organizing there have been professional and not showing favoritism to women. I jumped with sit-flyers because that's all I could do. The guys organizing some of the really cool stuff...well, too bad for me....as it has gone for me at pretty much every other dropzone when they're organizing all sorts of goofy headdown points.
Women getting on stuff has less to do with their gender than you might think. Piriya will get invited on really cool stuff because she's actually a really damned good flyer (especially at 100 jumps!)
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning
Quote
Anyone here ever attend the EAA convention at Oshkosh? It's usually within a week or so of WFFC.
The contrast is dramatic, and it's not just due to size difference. EAA convention is 99% volunteer run, but is actually well organized. It's cleaner too, despite hosting hundreds of thousands of visitors.
I lurk a few westcoast EAA chapters and the opinion is that Oshcosh is/was just as big a mess. Its the reason other similar events around the country are getting bigger and attracting airventure refugees. Good news is that they have listened to the complaints and have started to turn things that are within their control around for the better.
ChrisL 2
QuoteThe Jet test drops were to occur Monday or yesterday. I'm awaiting the initial results.
So????
Its Thursday.
__
My mighty steed
My mighty steed
That would have required an extra £150 to allow name and date changes.
Look, i am looking forward to going. Don't think i ever said i was not.
Only problem was it does not seem to be what it was advertised to be.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.
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