Landing on your rear risers

[PD126r 0]

Let's say you have a stuck brakeline and have to cut it. Would you land your main on the rear risers or would you go for the reserve?
And what kind of canopy (high performance or not) would you do it on?

[AggieDave 6]

Let me start my response with a question: Who says your reserve will work?

I'm going to land with my rear-risers. Now, I'm not jumping a *real* high performance canopy, its a Heatwave loaded at just under 1.7:1, but I'd rather chance a tumbling in landing then chop a very landable main.

Another question, have you ever seen the video of Eric Butts' reserve lineover? He's a pro-swooper (among many other cool things and ratings) for Atair, had a brake line break on him and he chopped it. He had a line over on his reserve, clearing it *finally* (scary video) very low and landing.

That situation alone makes me think twice about cutting away a flying, landable canopy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lazerq3 0]

Hornet 150 loaded 1.18 ...I'd land it with risers!! First of all like dave said you have a landable main..and thats why we'er suppose to practice those things like good riser control...also for me one queswtion I ALWAYS (and dont ask me why) I ask right at wave off is "would I want to chop here"... I mean if I'm over the highway or off airport I dont want to chop that main and possibly loss it and the free bag...now dont get me wrong I dont care where I'm at if its bad its gone but I just always ask myself that ,... and then theres times Im over the fields or airport and I'll say to myself "yeah I'd chop here"!! Hey I know it sounds crazy but thats just what goes through my head ....!!!

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[USPA 0]

I'm not gonna cut In my expansive lines, when I have a perfect reserve canopy with me. It's there for this kind of situations, don't be afraid to use it.

On the reserve I would off course cut it and land on the risers.

I would probably first fly the main to a place where I can easily find the main and freebag....

I have a fairly high performance wingload 1.7 on both main (eliptical) and reserve.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[fudd 0]

I'll cut away and land my reserve. Much easier to get a repack than a line replacement.
Much better than busting an ankle on landing on rear riser.
If I get a reserve mal...well guess it wasn't my day then...

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[rmcvey 0]

Have to disagree. Me personally see no reason why i wouldnt/couldnt land my main without brakes. Like dave said, roll it out and brush the dust off your kit.

Landing on rear's on anything loaded 2.0+ might be a different story....

[riddler 0]

My $0.02. I was under a 1:1 wingload and had a broken steering line on open. I already knew I couldn't flare rear-riser (already tried on several occasions and all I could do is pull my body up in the harness). So I chopped - the fact that I was spinning badly was only a minor consideration

Not everyone will be able to flair rear riser under low wingload. You should play with your rear risers up high when your canopy is good, so that you know if you can even do it. If you know you can't flair, I vote for a cutaway. I trust my rigger - do you?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Quote

when I have a perfect reserve canopy with me

I thought it was like a perfectly good aircraft - it doesn't exist

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[PhreeZone 15]

If you don't consider a canopy loaded at 1.7 tp be high proformance what do you?


Personally.. I've tried on mine and I biffed in hard due to stalling it. If I knew I was making it to the DZ or a good landing area I'll take the biff. It it clearly is going to be an off landing I'll take the reserve.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[nacmacfeegle 0]

right then.
You don't have to cut it, you can wrassle it, or you can cut the line, or you can chop the main.
I've been in this situation twice under the same 1.6-ish loaded spectre.
First time was over a very familiar DZ, I wrassled it, cleared it and landed off (plan B was to wrassle it then at a 'certain height' if not clear cut the line and rear riser it).
Second time was during my first visit to a DZ, the winds were gusty with unfamiliar and wierd turbulence, I chopped the main and hit the ressie.
Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[darkwing 4]

I'd never chop a landable main for another toss of the dice with my reserve (which unlike some, is NOT perfect).

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[matttrudeau 0]

I would personally land with my rear risers. If I had a more high performance canopy I would probably chop it. If I can land it, I'm gonna keep it. I trust my rigger, but I trust myself more.

[BikerBabe 0]

Well, it depends (like most people on here have said). On My Jedei 105, which seems to fly stable whatever I try to do to it, I'd probably land the main.

On my stilleto, that's a different story. For example, just 2 weekends ago, I opened under my stilleto and was turning. Now, an off-heading opening is pretty normal, so I did what I always do, try to steer the opening with my body weight and the rear risers. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the canopy flying straight, it kept turning, and turning faster. At this point I was approaching 2000 ft and I really didn't have any more time to figure out what was wrong, so I chopped it. It was only an unstowed toggle. Did I HAVE to cutaway? Maybe not. Personally, I'm not second-guessing my decision, though I did receive some grief at the DZ for not trying harder to fix it. Sorry, my personal "Stilleto policy" is if I can't get it flying straight before I unstow the brakes, then it's probably going to go.

I would contend on some spin-prone canopies, that you may not have time before your decision altitude to figure out the problem, respond, fix it, and be flying straight. If this is the case, reserve it is...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I'd never chop a landable main for another toss of the dice with my reserve (which unlike some, is NOT perfect).

That's what I used to say. Then I landed one - it was only two broken D lines after all, and it kinda felt like it was slowing down when I did a controlability check.

Scariest canopy ride of my life - and at that point I had no idea that there was also an inch long hole next to one of the steering line attachments - and one of my worst landings ever. Now I'm much more open to the idea of getting rid of a marginal main and trusting that the reserve is going to work as it's supposed to.

Busted steering line or lost toggle... well, I haven't practiced landing my main with rear risers so I'm more likely to chop it if I have the altitude. If I didn't have the altitude I'd be practicing rear riser flares on the way down and hoping for the best.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

If you don't consider a canopy loaded at 1.7 tp be high proformance what do you?

Sorry, should have been more clear, that's my dry sense of humor coming out (hence the astricks). Yes it is high performance, but its still not in the extreme range (the crossbraced 2.0+ range).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bwilling 0]

Quote

That situation alone makes me think twice about cutting away a flying, landable canopy.

One of the problems with making a chop/no chop determination on a marginal canopy, is trying to decide whether or not it could get potentially worse as you make your descent... I had broken steering lines on opening once, and they were, well, involved with the C-D line groups...

The canopy was actually flying ok, with a tendency for end cell closure on the side of the offending lines, but it was square, steerable, and mostly stable. But I ended up chopping it. Why??? Because I wasn't absolutely sure that it wasn't going to get worse as I tried to fly the canopy in to land...

I flew it all the way to decision altitude, but decision altitude being what it is (time to make a decision!) I decided that I wasn't absolutely sure that I had a canopy over my head that I want to fly all the way in and land, so I chopped it...

You gotta love skydiving, a sport that demands skillfull decision making under pressure!!!

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

My $0.02. I was under a 1:1 wingload and had a broken steering line on open. I already knew I couldn't flare rear-riser (already tried on several occasions and all I could do is pull my body up in the harness). So I chopped - the fact that I was spinning badly was only a minor consideration

Not everyone will be able to flair rear riser under low wingload. You should play with your rear risers up high when your canopy is good, so that you know if you can even do it. If you know you can't flair, I vote for a cutaway. I trust my rigger - do you?

This sums it up for me...my canopy is so baffed I
can only get a nice landing 'cause I time it perfectly
and landing hanging from rear risers is gonna suck.
I trust my rigger more than he trusts himself...he
told me once ( after 3 reserve rides) " you know, reserves
can mal too!" I said "YA,YA,YA." I would jump the reserve alone any day leaving the main on the ground(if someone I trust packs it).
On the other hand, once I open my reserve, my gear is out for the weekend.
P.S. I would not take a hook knife to my main unless it was a life or death kinda thing( it would not be worth the cost of repair).
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[riggerrob 558]

If a brakeline were stuck, I would start by doing a few practice turns with rear risers. If I could not get predictable turns and a reasonable flare on rear risers, then I would cutaway and pull my reserve ripcord.

As for the notion of hook-knifing one offending steering line ... that is silly because then you are back to asking yourself whether you can safely control a canopy in a configuration that the manufacturer never tested.

Big, docile canopies can be landed safely using only the rear risers. As canopies get smaller and faster, the margin for error narrows. At some point you will have to decide which canopies you are willing to land on rear risers and which you will have to cutaway. The best time to ask this question is shortly after opening on your next skydive. Leave the brakes stowed and do a few rear riser turns. Then do a couple of rear riser flares and ask yourself "could you walk away from a landing using only rear risers?"

[billvon 2,434]

>Let's say you have a stuck brakeline and have to cut it. Would you
>land your main on the rear risers or would you go for the reserve?

Hmm. First off, I'm not sure I would cut the line. I've landed a Tri-160 with a stuck brake line by holding the other brake down, wrapping it around the riser, and flaring a little bit with both risers. Amy did the same with a Nova 150. I would do that with a Sabre2 150, but not with my current canopy (a Safire 119.)

You have two choices in this situation if you want to land your main. One is to cut the stuck line, the other is to pull down the other brake to compensate. I'd recommend pulling down the other brake instead of cutting lines. Why? First off, using a hookknife in flight is not as simple as it sounds, especially if you're spinning due to the problem. The chances of not being able to cut the line or cutting the wrong line are significant. Secondly, your canopy is designed to be able to fly in half brakes; it can't always fly as well with a cut line. If your other brake line is even the slightest bit too short you now have a canopy that is very hard to control.

If you would consider landing something like this, practice this _before_ you need it. Leave both brakes stowed and try flares up high. If that works, pick a perfect day (nice steady winds, soft ground) and try to land it that way. Prepare to do a PLF. If you can do it under those conditions, there's a good chance you can pull it off when you need it. Or, if you want to cut the brake line, try the same thing with brakes unstowed (landing with rear risers.)

[rigging65 0]

There are certainly some canopies I wouldn't think twice about landing on rear risers...but my current canopy, I think not. Not that I haven't done it, but those were under conditions that I chose to rear riser in on, not ones I was forced to land in.

My personal opinion, and that's all it is, is that if you can't rear riser land your current canopy (under conditions of your choosing) that you have no business flying it. With that said, "conditions of your choosing" shouldn't be the most windy day you can find, but rather something middle of the road. Normal conditions, a day you're feeling good, etc. This is more to show control than to "riser land".

So, before I get flamed for this, I realize that just because you can land your canopy in ideal conditions on rear risers doesn't mean you're necessarily "safe" under it...but at least it's a gauge as to how much you're relying on one set of controls on your canopy to do all the work.

This falls into the same argument as "if you can't land you're canopy straight-in, you have no business flying it". You should be able to do more with your canopy than just land it after a front riser hook using toggles.

Safety comes from comfort with your equipment in ALL it's phases.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

..SNIP>>>First off, using a hookknife in flight is not as simple as it sounds

Oh...and you may need 2...'cause the first thing
that usually happens after getting you knife out,is... you DROP IT!
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[QTPi 0]

Reading this thread makes it sound like this happens all the time. How common is this and what is the best way to prevent it?

--
A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its old dimensions. -Oliver Wendel Holmes

[DBCOOPER 1]

A guy at Cross Keys died trying it last summer.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[DYEVOUT 0]

Wow, didn't he try it upstairs first??

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[DBCOOPER 1]

Went to hell on him right at the end.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.