Cypress SAVE

[phoenixlpr 0]

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my EP's are "look right grab right(cutway), look left grab left" (silver). peel punch arch, punch arch. i dont' care if the reserve is deploying or not i'm pulling both in that situation, period!.

That is just a theory as long you have not used in real EP, but keep on practicing.

[phoenixlpr 0]

What instructor? Over 100 jumps I don't think she is/was a student anymore. She has made a mistake, a near fatal one. That's her responsibility. I think she only needs to have a serious talk with the STA.

[Lindsey 0]

yes

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[VampireGirl 0]

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No one in this sport should be standing around waiting for someone to teach them about their own gear. They should be proactive in researching out their gear and asking questions. It is the jumpers responsibility to makes sure they understand their gear. It isn't rocket science. She failed herself. She failed to make sure she understood her gear. She failed to pull her reseve ripcord. It isn't that hard to figure out. Apparently her life isn't that important to her since she didn't make sure she knew what she was doing before jumping.

I would never blame anyone else for my own ignorance. I am responsible for my own education. All teachers can do is provide information and explainations. It is up to me to make sure I understand.

--------------------------

Ahmen!

www.sneale-create.com

[dan_iv 0]

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What instructor? Over 100 jumps I don't think she is/was a student anymore. She has made a mistake, a near fatal one. That's her responsibility. I think she only needs to have a serious talk with the STA.

I consider myself a student even though I have my A license. the AFF / SDU / Coaches / STA / DZO / and trusted others will always be my instructors.

100 jumps, 500 jumps people are always learning new things. are you a student when you have 500 jumps and are trying to get a rating for say your AFFI rating, i would say you are.

[goose491 0]

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What instructor? Over 100 jumps I don't think she is/was a student anymore. She has made a mistake, a near fatal one. That's her responsibility. I think she only needs to have a serious talk with the STA.

I consider myself a student even though I have my A license. the AFF / SDU / Coaches / STA / DZO / and trusted others will always be my instructors.

100 jumps, 500 jumps people are always learning new things. are you a student when you have 500 jumps and are trying to get a rating for say your AFFI rating, i would say you are.

Yes, yes... and those of us who are lucky, learn something new every day. (I would hope that somebody going for their AFFI rating would know their emergency proceedures though. )

I think the point, was can we still blame an instructor for your lack of knowledge in EPs (the first thing you should have learned) when you have 100 jumps ???

I think we've carried this "poor education" possibility to it's end. At 100 jumps, I would place the responsibility of saving one's own butt... squarely on the butt in question.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[pilotdave 0]

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If the RSL beats you and the reserve is sitting pretty over your head

my question to you then would be, why did you not even attempt to pull your reserve handle. ...

my EP's are "look right grab right(cutway), look left grab left" (silver). peel punch arch, punch arch. i dont' care if the reserve is deploying or not i'm pulling both in that situation, period!.

You learned the "one hand per handle" method, which is probably a bit quicker than the "two hand per handle" method. Speed is the advantage, but that method may be more prone to error (wrong sequence, hard pull, hand slipping off a handle, etc). Somebody that learns to use both hands per handle will more likely be experiencing opening shock while trying to grab the reserve handle, at which point it becomes pretty obvious that pulling the handle isn't necessary (to survive). Still a good idea to pull it, if for no reason other than practice. Follow your emergency procedures every time, however you learned them.

Dave

[labrys 0]

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my EP's are "look right grab right(cutway), look left grab left" (silver). peel punch arch, punch arch. i dont' care if the reserve is deploying or not i'm pulling both in that situation, period!.

My plan was similar except that I practice the two-handed method. Last week I had my first cutaway and things didn't go exactly as I'd planned.

I forgot to "peel" the cutaway handle and it didn't come loose. I attribute that to not "peeling" when I practice my EPs.

On my second attempt after I realized my mistake I lost my grip. On my third attempt I got it right but I looked away from my reserve handle as I pulled.

My RSL beat me easily. My reserve opened just as I found my reserve handle. Sure, I pulled it anyway but it certainly wasn't necessary. I was more or less just glad to have survived 2 mistakes and was going to pull all the handles I had regardless of need. Not everyone would see the need.

For me, surviving my mistakes and a cutaway that didn't go as planned was very, very humbling. I also learned that a lightly loaded Sabre2 can spin a lot faster than I'd assumed.

Owned by Remi #?

[Hooknswoop 19]

In summary;

I think we all agree that the training should happen before she jumps again, and my understanding is this has happened.

Whether or not to tell her she is grounded as punishment, not everyone agrees on.

I think some agree that student training needs to be looked at to see how this can be prevented in the future.

Some agree that gender may have also played a role.

Derek

[dan_iv 0]

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In summary;

I think we all agree that the training should happen before she jumps again, and my understanding is this has happened.

Whether or not to tell her she is grounded as punishment, not everyone agrees on.

I think some agree that student training needs to be looked at to see how this can be prevented in the future.

Some agree that gender may have also played a role.

Derek

The only thing that I would add to this list is that there is definitely a discrepancy between the 2 published "A" license cards from the USPA. if you use the 4 page card there is no reference of RSL or it's use, so theoretically a student could get there license without this knowledge. My suggestion is that either the 4 page card is removed, or updated. personally i dont' think there should be two different documents for the same purpose anyways..

[kelpdiver 2]

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my question to you then would be, why did you not even attempt to pull your reserve handle. I'm pretty sure that If i'm faced with a situation that i need to cutaway my main (yes I have an rsl). I will be following the EP tought to me! i think that there is enough time between when you initate the cutaway before the rsl starts to deploy your reserve that you should have pulled sillver atleast during that sequence.

I haven't had a cutaway yet, Dan, so it's only conjecture for me. I train with the two hand method, so per Lawndart's remarks, the reserve will likely fire long before I get my hands on the reserve D ring. I don't know how quickly the reserve will actually deploy, which is probably the determinant of whether or not I'll have pulled silver.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I mean really, how bad does the FJC have to be that it never mentions the reserve handle can be used to stop the skydive?

Its clear that there was a failure in this case for learning to take place. However, everone wants to place the blame on the instructors.

As an individual incident, the bulk of the blame clearly goes to the jumper. But we've seen many incidents like this, so at some point you have to consider whether or not the system is flawed. The conclusion may be no, but needs to be checked.

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I see it in SCUBA diving as well...People don't really learn to buddy breathe since everyone has an octo.

It's often said that BSRs are written in blood. The practice of buddy breathing was replaced by additional equipment for the same reason. Despite being trained in the buddy breathing method (uncommon now), one out of air diver frequently lead to two dead dive buddies. Divers in the 60s were also much more skilled at doing free ascents from depth when they ran out of air. Now we use pressure gauges. Too many died.

It's progress. The reliance of dive computers may not be, but those basic equilivents to the altimeter are good things, not bad.

[Ron 7]

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We have shifted to a male vs female student issue and differences in instruction each may receive either intentionally or unintentionally.

Did not mean to do that. I just wanted to point out another reason why a student might not learn in a class.

So far the reasons I have.

1. The student heard all the FJC and it was a standard FJC. It included the explanation of an RSL, the fact that the Jumper must stop the skydive, and that the reserve can stop the skydive. However the student instead focused on the saftey toys to try and convince herself that she would be safe. The area of the studenst focus become the lesson she learned. This is what I think actually happend.

It could have happend even LONG after the FJC was complete. It could have happend by talking around the camp fire where she heard stories of people who had RSL's deploy the reserve.

For this I'd like to show some evidence FROM THIS THREAD that could lead someone to the conclusion that all you have to do is pull the cutaway and the RSL will save you.

"Oh BTW, in general I agree, but I have so many cutaways that if I ever have one with an rsl again (usually I jump camera so no rsl), I might or I might not. If the reserve is already open, it's open, and I know I can find and pull my handles "-Dragon2

"If the RSL beats you and the reserve is sitting pretty over your head, what's the gain in now pulling the moderately expensive reserve handle? Is it really beneficial practice now that the other end is gone already? "-Kelpdiver

"My RSL beat me easily. My reserve opened just as I found my reserve handle. Sure, I pulled it anyway but it certainly wasn't necessary. "- Labrys

So from these (and there are more examples) a newbie might think that they do not need to pull the reserve since the RSL will open the reserve so fast and there is not much benefit in pulling the reserve handle since the RSL will beat them.

2. The Instructor was really fucked up and left out critical information. I would hope they are not that stupid. However, it could happen since I bet a good number of todays Instructors are themselves "children of the AAD". Take scenario #1 and that jumper now becomes and Instructor. Are they going teach what they are supposed to, or what they themselves learned?

Interestingly enough. This could be found out by asking OTHER students in the same class some questions.

3. This student recieved special attention...And not in a good way.

I think it is part 1 and 2. The Instructor didn't stress it enough and the student trying to justify the safety of skydiving put more focus on the saftey toys than procedures.

Now, as Hook asked. "What do we do about it?"

We must not use the saftey devices to try and "convince" a student that skydiving is for them. I see it all the time. We tell prospective students that we have all these great devices that will save them if they fuck up.

I'd rather not even mention them to FJC students. Make them think that only THEY can save themselves. The students that are willing to jump not knowing about the safety blanket will still jump. And those that will not, will never jump and SHOULD never jump.

See the problem is not with the devices, it is with the mindset. We encourage it and we should not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[apley 0]

"I'd rather not even mention them to FJC students. Make them think that only THEY can save themselves. The students that are willing to jump not knowing about the safety blanket will still jump. And those that will not, will never jump and SHOULD never jump. "

you said it all, ron. i have often been guilty of the same type of encouragement while talking to a friend who is considering the inherent dangers of skydiving. i selfishly tell them how unreasonable their fears are so i can share this wonderful experience with them...

in this mode of thought, i sometimes ignore the fact that not only CAN we die doing it, but some of the most experienced and talented among us actually DO.

[azureriders 0]

I won't begin to try to answer the grounding question with my jump numbers, and I will not give my say that people who do not know their gear should not skydive (I got taken the wrong way the last time I said that)

But what gets me is how anyone who is takeing their own life in their hand can be any thing other than proactive in their training. I believe that you (as a student) should only take the advise of your instructors and any other advise should be passed by your instructors. Don't take lessons from a 50 jump wonder etc etc, we all know that drill. Now, does that mean that I trust my Instructor to teach me everything I need to know to save my life and know for a fact that he will not forget something or maybe just this once mix his words up? HELL NO I am going to talk to the other Instructors around, to the DZO (which in my case is a very experience jumper), to the people on DZ.com, read manufacturer web sites, and even talk to a few 50 jump wonders and make sure that I got this shit. and of course if I find something that MY instrucor so called missed I am going to bring it straight to him before I practice it. This is my life we are talking about, and I can't understand how anyone would handle this any other way, and yes, before you say it, I know that they do.

Just an example: In my FJC when I was told to perform my first gear check I went over all the points that I was told to and noticed something funny about the 3ring. I asked the instructor why the loop was double ended and there were two yellow cords for each riser. Then as he was studering and mumbling I realized the extra set of cutaway cables was connected to silver. "Damn, if you pull the reserve without cutting away first this rig will still cut the main" The coach giving the class told me that students were not supposed to be made aware of this and that in the 5or so years he had been teaching the course no student had ever caught it. I am in no way claiming to be special or smart, I just could not believe that I was the first and he could not believe that I knew how a 3ring worked before I got to his class. Once again, this is my life, how could I not be proactive enough to know these things? It's beyond me

[MB38 0]

Interestingly, the people who have taken it upon themselves to find Dropzone.com, register, read and post are probably safer skydivers... or at least are more open to advice. People who read and post here are open to getting more information than they otherwise would.

As such, most of us look at people who rely on their Cypres to save their lives in confusion. Why would they wait for the Cypres? It's an emergency backup that should never be relied on!

We know that. We know that because we have gone out of our way to come here and learn it. Maybe it was taught at our FJC, maybe we learned it 500 jumps into our career, maybe we were jumping before the Cypres even existed... but we know it.

The people who went to their FJC and go to the DZ every few weekends to huck themselves out the door, flip around for a bit and land may not know it. Perhaps they don't take skydiving as "seriously" as members here do [speaking in complete generalities] but maybe they just don't know.

So people here are the proactive ones. People who did research before jumping, after jumping and will hopefully still consider themselves students long into their skydiving careers. Maybe not everybody's that way and I'm absolutely NOT saying that there are no non-members who feel that way.

I just think that the kind of people who read/post/learn here will generally not be the kind of people who will wait for their Cypres to save their ass after pulling red.

But what do I know?

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I totally agree, i replied to this post with an answer like this. You've nailed what i was trying to say

Andy

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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I'd rather not even mention them to FJC students. Make them think that only THEY can save themselves. The students that are willing to jump not knowing about the safety blanket will still jump. And those that will not, will never jump and SHOULD never jump.

See the problem is not with the devices, it is with the mindset. We encourage it and we should not.

I wouldn't agree with not instructing students on their gear. I would have been upset had I been wearing a device that I didn't have some understanding of. -What are you going to tell them? "Don't worry about that thing, I'll tell ya about it later." <--That's shady. I wouldn't have jumped at a DZ that didn't explain my gear to me.

I completely agree with you on your thought process as to why not to talk about the AAD, however there's got to be a better way...maybe that the device is only should the jumper experience a mid-air colision and be rendered unconcious? That would allow for an explanation of an AAD without a dependant mind set, maybe?

It is a quandry, but less education on gear? I hope that's not the answer.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Ron 7]

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I wouldn't agree with not instructing students on their gear. I would have been upset had I been wearing a device that I didn't have some understanding of

You think you understand an AAD at the end of a FJC?

Did you know how a freebag works in your FJC? Did you even learn about a freebag in your FJC? It is an important part of your gear and I bet it was not mentioned to you. Did you learn to pack before your FJC? If you taught everthing needed in a FJC it would take days, and you would lose the attention of half your students.

Students have an attention span. Covering too much information will make them concentrate on what THEY think is important. This will happen no matter how much you you tell them something else is important, they will pay attention to what they think is important.

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maybe that the device is only should the jumper experience a mid-air colision and be rendered unconcious? That would allow for an explanation of an AAD without a dependant mind set, maybe?

They will focus on the fact that it will save them if knocked out. They will ask, "How does it know I am knocked out?" Then you will have to tell them about how it fires at 750 feet at a certain speed. I can almost bet they will then say, "So, if I do nothing it will fire?"

Tell me one thing that NOT telling a FJC student about an AAD will cause a problem. Im not saying never tell them, I am saying don't tell them in the FJC.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MB38 0]

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But what do I know?

Not everything. It turns out that there was an incident involving a registered member here who turned on her Cypres at home and drove to the dz at a different altitude. It sounds like she was waiting for it to fire after a hard pull and bounced.

Generalities are generalities.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[billvon 2,435]

>Tell me one thing that NOT telling a FJC student about an AAD will cause a problem.

A low pull may result in two-out, which is a situation they must know how to deal with.

[Andy9o8 0]

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>Tell me one thing that NOT telling a FJC student about an AAD will cause a problem.

A low pull may result in two-out, which is a situation they must know how to deal with.

OK, fair enough. But what about the RSL? Tell them during the FJC, or wait until after their 1st jump?

[wmw999 2,149]

You tell them about anything that they might be called on to either make a decision about, react to, or wonder about on their jump.

A Cypres, for the reason that Billvon already mentioned. Also, they might hear about it in conversation.

An RSL, because they might need to at least be aware -- someone might decide to cut away if they land when it's windy (for whatever reason), or if they are the lucky guy running away from the flaming airplane and their static line is still hooked up (OK, so this is from a long time ago) they'll cut away, and find that now their reserve is coming out. If they cut away and try to pull their reserve handle and it won't come out easily (e.g. the RSL kinked the ripcord in just the wrong way), they won't worry that they did something wrong.

Also it's good to let them know offhandedly because it lets you reinforce that they are in charge of their future.

The freebag? There's nothing to react to or make a decision on.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[NWFlyer 2]

We're focusing a lot on FJC vs. not FJC, but I wonder if the answer isn't some more "formal" classroom training later in the student progression. Sure, there's a lot of things that are supposed to get "checked off" on the A license card, including lots of gear knowledge, but it seems to get covered in a hit-or-miss way during jump briefings. I feel like I probably got a little more time on gear because I did so much of my student progression over the winter in the Northwest - lots of weather holds with plenty of time to go over all the stuff on the A card that wasn't related to a specific jump.

FJC's can be overwhelming, and the majority of students in the FJC won't go on to get their A licenses. But for those that do, maybe the answer is another couple of hours of dedicated time to go over all of the stuff that's on the A card that is not specific to an individual dive flow/prep/debrief. It's a chance to reinforce what was learned in the FJC and to more completely cover the stuff that wasn't.

Just a thought... not sure how well it would work practically.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Students have an attention span. Covering too much information will make them concentrate on what THEY think is important. This will happen no matter how much you you tell them something else is important, they will pay attention to what they think is important.

Exactly how a student could understand that all they had to do was cutaway and the RSL would handle the rest even though the Instructor did a good job.

Derek