Cypress SAVE

[scooterskydives 0]

Having not known when the girl got her "A" license, one of the requirements to get your "A" license is to
"Demonstrate the understanding, use, and disconnection of a reserve static line"?????

If God wanted man to stay on the ground.
He would of put roots on them instead of feet.
loving life
GO-N-UP

[highfly 0]

Waiting for your Cypres to fire is like driving towards a wall at 130 mph and not worrying because your airbag and seat belt is gonna save you.

It may it may not. Do the right thing and put on the breaks nice and early.

The same is said for audibles. You dont wait for it to go off. You keep an eye on your alti.
Your Audible is 2nd in command when it comes to pull tme

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[b1jercat 0]

I'm thinking the same thing, my training was try once, try twice, go for silver. I'll bet she doesn't make that mistake again.

blues

jerry

[Lindsey 0]

Grounding until she gets some remediation and demonstrates a good learning curve. Regardless of whether there's something that we all don't know (I'm sure you're right), she has demonstrated in a pretty dramatic way a dangerous lack of understanding. She should do what she can to correct that before she skydives again.

It's not about punishing a person, but rather improving her chances of survival when she needs to understand the workings of her gear again....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[MrBrant 0]

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The same is said for audibles. You dont wait for it to go off. You keep an eye on your alti And the GROUND.
Your Audible is 2nd 3rd in command when it comes to pull tme

Although mostly reliable, I will never trust a mechanical (or electronic) device to save me.

After jumping with my altimeter for a good 10-15 jumps (starting at jump 20ish) I did a 2-way coached dive. and with another person in the air, I realized that my alti was reading almost 1000 feet high! at terminal, near pull time.
Damn, was that a SCARY realization. I was glad I had been pulling at about 3500 on most of my solo dives.
I've since sent the alti back to the manufacturer for recalibration, and it seems to work pretty good now.

But, since then I made it a priority to get a VERY good feel for what the ground looks like at different altitudes now. I'll never trust a device like that again.

I even pulled early on a "sunset" jump once because i thought i was fucking low, but it tuns out that ground-rush is just more pronounced when the light-level goes down . But, i didn't mind (I was last from the plane anyway). Better to pull early, and risk an out landing than...............

[highfly 0]

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After jumping with my altimeter for a good 10-15 jumps (starting at jump 20ish) I did a 2-way coached dive. and with another person in the air, I realized that my alti was reading almost 1000 feet high! at terminal, near pull time.
Damn, was that a SCARY realization.

I think its more scary that you didnt notice this on the lift to altitude.

Things to do in before getting in and getting out of the jump plane.
1 Check your pins before you enter the plane and exit the plane.
2 Read your alti and look at at least 4-5 other altis if you can for confirmation that yours is indeed correct .(make sure they are all the same unit ie Meters or ft)
3. Check your mates gear before entry to the plane and exit of the plane.

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[vdschoor 0]

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When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ????

She was spoken too by many on the ground.

Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?

I know in Sweden, she would be banned from the sport, FOR LIFE. Cause.. theoretically you are dead.
I think the rule there is if you land conscious from a Cypres save, you can sell your gear and you will never be allowed to jump in Sweden again.

Someone local there correct me if i don't have the facts straight.


Personally.. device dependence is a very dangerous thing, what are the emergency procedures we all get taught in ground school?
Cutaway, pull reserve.

One of my friends had a cutaway a couple of weeks ago, and the RSL beat him to pulling the reserve handle.. BUT.. he did grab the handle anyways, ready to pull it out, but he was already under a reserve.

ALWAYS execute the emergency procedures.. ALWAYS.

This jumper should be grounded.

[NickDG 23]

Being sort of an oldie I came up with warning boards and groundings, but after reading Mike Truffer's editorial in SKYDIVING not long ago, I changed my mind.

In general she'll never make that same mistake again, so grounding her serves no purpose.

I'm still for punitive groundings for experienced jumpers who intentionally endanger others but in the above jumper's case I'm not so sure "we" or at least the system didn’t fail her . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Hooknswoop 19]

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don't think it is necessary to know EVERYTHING about your gear.

How do you know that you don't know something about your gear that could kill you someday?

I'm sure this jumper felt she understood enough about her gear to jump safely and would continue to learn as she went. She misunderstood how an RSL works. She didn't know that she misunderstood, she she didn't seek further education on the RSL.

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But how an RSL works is one of the top things that you should understand.

If you have one, I agree, you should understand how it works. There are a lot of people that don't understand AAD's. I remember a recent reserve fire because the jumper didn't fully understand how the Cypres works. It happens. The problem is if they think they understand how it works, why would they ask for someone to explain something they already know.

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It should only take 30 seconds to explain how it works.

It takes a lot longer than 30 seconds to fully explain how an RSL works, the advantages and dis-advantages, etc. There are some very long threads about RSL's.

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It isn't that hard to understand. If you don't know or are unsure of how something works ask.

It isn't incredibly complicated, but I already showed how simplification can lead to misunderstanding. When the student is trying to learn so much and dealing with the pressure to do it right and anxiety of jumping out of an airplane, learning is a challenge. It is a delicate balance by the Instructor to get the important information across that will definately need and the emergency information all students should be armed with, without overwhelming the student. I don;t think not telling them about the RSL is the right answer either. Ignorance is not bliss.

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Make sure you understand by telling the instructor how you think it works just to make sure you are correct.

That is a good idea, but if you have 9 people all telling what they think it does, for every piece of the gear, you run out of time and lose the attention of the students quickly.

What I have seen does and works very well, is a written test each student takes home after class. They are instructed that the test will not be graded, but is to ensure that the Instructor covered everything, they learned everything, and to identify areas they may need a little more clarification on. This doesn't work for an AFF FJC class in the morning and getting the students in the air that day. It is time consuming.

This incident highlights shotcomings in some current student programs. Misunderstandings goes undetected. What we should be asking ourselves, is how did someone with 100 jumps not fully understand how an RSL works? If the jumper simply doesn't care and was a poor student, well, not much you can do. If she is heads up, pays attention, and learns, how did she slip through the cracks?

Derek

[airtwardo 6]

This incident highlights shotcomings in some current student programs. Misunderstandings goes undetected. What we should be asking ourselves, is how did someone with 100 jumps not fully understand how an RSL works? If the jumper simply doesn't care and was a poor student, well, not much you can do. If she is heads up, pays attention, and learns, how did she slip through the cracks?


***

Well put Hook...

If the student fails to learn...the teacher failed to teach!

but on the other hand~

If the student doesn't care enough to learn about how things work....there's always Tennis.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kelpdiver 2]

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I know in Sweden, she would be banned from the sport, FOR LIFE. Cause.. theoretically you are dead.
I think the rule there is if you land conscious from a Cypres save, you can sell your gear and you will never be allowed to jump in Sweden again.

Substituting absolute rules for a judgement call is a poor solution. It may or may not serve this particular person well, but the unintended result will be a reluctance to admit your mistakes and seek information (at the DZ or places like here) and go forward.

For those that want grounding, is that well beyond the default time (short week) that is taken by the repack? Perris's 30?

The test of the B license presumes that these sort of gear issues are well understood, focuses more on the FARs and more advanced jumping. Is it a good time for the signoff instructor to ask a few questions on the common misconceptions with the AAD/RSL?

[Ron 7]

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I ask then, as it pertains to this thread:

Is a 100 jump jumper that lacks proper education/understanding of her gear, that leads to a cypres fire careless?

Yes. Why? Well it is their life on the line. I fail to see even the WORST FJC in history failing to tell the student that they must "stop the skydive".

What I can see happening is the student forgeting all of that and rather putting their focus on the part of the FJC that explains the AAD and RSL. Then taking that knowledge and putting a focus on that rather than putting the focus on doing the right things themselves. This happens with even the best instructors.

Students to try and rationalize the danger to themselves focus on the saftey gear that will "save them" rather than focus on the procedures that they need to save themselves. This causes them to downplay the procedures and put an unhealthy reliance on the gear.

It is terrible that today a CYPRES fire is not seen as a very serious incident.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Details: jumper with 100+ jumps hard a hard pull went back for second attempt, again hard pull.
She them pulled the cutaway ONLY and went back to position. Cypress fired, and she landed out safely.

When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ????

She was spoken too by many on the ground.

Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?

Depends on how she reacts to
Is Device Dependency Anonymous for You?

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[LawnDart21 0]

Very good points Ron.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[squirrel 0]

i was always taught that going to your reserve is a TWO step process, not one.

i am surprize that she did not do the full two steps, but at 100 jumps your settling in, getting complacent, and all that jazz. my wife had a hard pull/reserve on jump 8, then on 65. both times she pull both handles, even though the main was still in the container...because she knows, it is a TWO step process. funny thing on the second reserve ride, when i landed next to her the first thing she said was "god dammit, now i am done for the day!"

and, you will always, always, she us doing that one two pull process in the plane, committing the reserve pull sequence to memory. i usually do it with eys closed, three times before exit...commit it to mussle memory.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[LawnDart21 0]

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i was always taught that going to your reserve is a TWO step process, not one.

I don't recall indicating in any of my posts that EPs consisted solely of going for you reserve.

That said, there does exist a single handle EP system. I have only know one jumper to have it on thier rig, so to say it is a common thing would be inacurrate, but it does exist.

The backbone of EPs, typically 2 step, cutaway handle then reserve handle, is that it is a rehearsed "auto response", in that any malfunction, especially a high speed one, simply does not allow for the time to be making EP decisions, nor should it. Ones EPs, whether its 2 steps, or on the seldom seen 1 handle system, should be rehearsed and well engrained in each jumpers head before they board an aircraft.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[highfly 0]

I found this question very interesting that was on the link for DDA on Makeithappen's post.

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4 - Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?
Do you need a device to jump? This is a pretty sure sign that you are device dependent.

How does this pertain to DZ's and federations/associations that are making AAD's mandatory?

I have 175 jumps and Im based in NZ.

I need 200 jumps min to get my C and then I can jump without an AAD, but in Jan 07 AAD's are mandatory for everyone in the sport in NZ.

Are we all gonna be DDA?

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[likearock 1]

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don't think it is necessary to know EVERYTHING about your gear.

How do you know that you don't know something about your gear that could kill you someday?

I'm sure this jumper felt she understood enough about her gear to jump safely and would continue to learn as she went. She misunderstood how an RSL works. She didn't know that she misunderstood, she she didn't seek further education on the RSL.

I don't think the most alarming part of this incident is her failure to understand how an RSL works. It's the fact that she relied completely on an automatic device to save her when she should have acted to save herself.

Suppose she did understand how the RSL worked and instead just waited for the AAD to fire. How would that have been any different?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I don't think the most alarming part of this incident is her failure to understand how an RSL works. It's the fact that she relied completely on an automatic device to save her when she should have acted to save herself.

Suppose she did understand how the RSL worked and instead just waited for the AAD to fire. How would that have been any different?

I totally agree that she was/is device dependant and that is bad.

I think sometimes what happens in a cutaway from a total or with a rig without an RSL is when the RSL fails to activate the reserve, the emergency is not going as expected, the jumper thinks they are having a reserve problem, panic and cannot think through what is happening as they experience ground rush. When they practice their EP's, they think, 'OK, mal, cutaway, my RSL will activate my reserve, but I'll follow through with my reserve like a good little skydiver'. When the RSL doesn't activate their reserve, they panic and never get to the 'I'll pull my reserve anyway' part.

I would really like to talk to this jumper and discuss what they knew about their gear, what their EP plan was and exactly what went through their mind in free fall. I would also like to hear their future skydiving-related plans. Like someone else mentioned, jumpers and Instructors can all learn from this. I would like to know if she intended to pull her reserve handle but didn't because the RSL didn't deploy the reserve, or if she never hd any intention of pulling her reserve because she had an RSL.

Derek

[mjosparky 3]

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Being sort of an oldie I came up with warning boards and groundings

And I can remember a hand full of jumpers who had their name permanently painted on the grounding board. At both Perris and Elsinore.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[squirrel 0]

was not replying directly to you...just stating how i, and my wife were trained. and yes, we do practice EPs in the car, on the ground, in the plane, everywhere. i am lucky to have a great skydive/scuba partner...

i actually practice more than her...seems that she has the move down.

jumping with a cypress to me is like when i ride with a helmet, i ride, and jump, like they are not there. there role is to increase your chances, not become part of the ride / dive.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[bigbearfng 9]

How current/not current is she?
Also if a jumper took a fjc years ago, and then took time off with no jumps, how long before requiring another fjc vs "refresher" would be appropriate?

[skytash 0]

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This is second hand info, and or random discussion one day at the DZ.. but is it true that if you have a cypress fire in a non emergency situation that you are indefinetly grounded in the UK? I could be wrong, I heard this from an Aussie S&TA?

It is not part of the official rules (and we have many!), there is likely to be an investigation of the individual case and a decision is made for that individual based on the investigation. This could be indefinite grounding, may be a requirement to attend another ground school. In the first instance it is at the descretion of the CCI (Chief Instructor, with similar duties to a US S&TA).

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[diverdriver 5]

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I think so. What if her Cypres had not been turned on? It happens...

What if her Cypres had been turned on at home and then she drove to an airport elevation that did not correspond with where she set it at? That's even more spooky to me. Your buddy gives a gear check and sees the zero with arrow down. Thinks everything is cool. Then they go in and it was set for a lower altitude than the ground.


I would like to add to the ground/no ground discussion. Some people oppose grounding. That's cool. They want education. Very cool. So, if you take her asside and spend some time re-educating her about ALL of her gear so you stamp out other misconceptions have you not effectively "grounded" her from jumping again for at least some time? I think those that say "ground her" have some of this intent too. Some who say ground her say it meaning permanently but I'm not sure everyone is making that distinction about which grounding they mean.

And yes, attitude of the student towards this situation is key to whether they should be allowed to continue.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Andy_Copland 0]

Its the fact that I have great people at my DZ to teach me and I like to ask questions (even dumb ones) that I know how an RSL works.

Yes I have 11 jumps but as soon as i attended my first ground school I went home, got on the internet and ordered books and read forums. To jump out of an aircraft without knowing how your gear works just sounds bone idle to me.

Right now I dont need to know how to pack, or really how the parachute opens (of course I want to learn.) I just need to know how to save my life if something goes wrong, and knowing how an RSL works can save your life.

As for grounding? i have not got a clue, all i'm trying to point out is that it's up to the student/jumper to be proactive. My 2 cents

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.