wmw999 2,120 #26 November 1, 2005 At least 1/2 day refresher with an instructor and maybe a rigger. Plenty of EP practice in the hanging harness. Pay the instructor for their time. Extra credit for everyone if others see it happening and listen in. Then explain it back to a different instructor. Get it right. Make sure that the instructors are of the "understand the underlying principles" type rather than the "do what I say and don't ask questions" type. If they're not willing, then it's time to consider alternative entertainment (TUB). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #27 November 1, 2005 QuoteNo one in this sport should be standing around waiting for someone to teach them about their own gear. They should be proactive in researching out their gear and asking questions. Thats easier for some to do than others. And like Derek said, why would you ask for help with something if you (incorrectly) thought you understood it in the first place? QuoteIt is the jumpers responsibility to makes sure they understand their gear. Did you know that before you started skydiving, or were you taught that rule by a thorough instructor? It wasnt until I got my riggers ticket at 700 jumps that I had a thorough understanding of how a reserve works. Prior to that it was "1) Pay for a repack & 2) If I need it, open it." Was I any less responsible at 400 jumps for not knowing how my reserve was packed and "why" it works than I am now? Where do you draw the line about knowing gear? Its drawn by WHAT you are TAUGHT and by WHOM. QuoteApparently her life isn't that important to her since she didn't make sure she knew what she was doing before jumping. What if she thought what she was doing was correct at the time? (See the theme? ...poor education) Without even knowing her (I dont know her either), you'll just assume she doesnt value her life. Pretty bold assumption. How many people do you know that do value thier lives and still make poor choices/decisions, by their own fault or not? QuoteAll teachers can do is provide information and explainations. The degree of which that is passed on from teachers to students can vary greatly. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #28 November 1, 2005 Ok, but I'm sending her home for the day to think about what could have happened and why it is important for you to do everything you can do to save yourself. People who walk around in a daze and do not hear what is being said are dangerous to you, me and the sport. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #29 November 1, 2005 QuoteWith all the information available nowadays, it's easy to get information about your gear. Unfortunately it's not all correct. Amen. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #30 November 1, 2005 A "wake up call" then for both sides of the equation (student/novice perspective, AND instructor perspective) to be taken away from this case, and this posting string perhaps? Thanks again Derek, as always for your valuable insight(s). -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #31 November 1, 2005 Quote"The RSL will activate your reserve when you cutaway from a partial malfunction Not wanting to be too critical here, but this is the type of statement that would have someone waiting on a backup device. This should always be stated "is meant to" or "is meant to in the event you are unable to or don't" I agree with others above that she failed to complete her EP's and I'm pretty sure pulling the reserve ripcord was covered in her training! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 November 1, 2005 Quote Ok, but I'm sending her home for the day to think about what could have happened and why it is important for you to do everything you can do to save yourself. Maybe. I think it really depends on her reaction. If she is kinda 'oh well' about it, then she needs a wake up call. If she is freaked out because she knows how close she came, a little embarrassed/ashamed of what happened, and expresses a desire to learn everything she can and wants to get right back on the horse, I would think some ground instruction and a 2-way would be in order. Remember the Golden Knight that was tracking for water when his Cypres fired? People make mistakes. As long as it was an honest mistake, she doesn’t need to be sent home, she needs corrective training. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #33 November 1, 2005 I am not an AFF-I, so I will add only the following link. www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1515845;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Very similar incident with a tragic outcome. Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #34 November 1, 2005 QuoteMake sure that the instructors are of the "understand the underlying principles" type rather than the "do what I say and don't ask questions" type. This is important. I could (theoretically) imagine a "do what I say and don't ask questions" type instructor teaching a FJC that doesn't even mention the RSL, on the premise that teaching the cutaway-pull reserve procedure should make it moot. This could set up the student for learning about the RSL at some later point in time, perhaps from someone unqualified to teach its function (e.g. the student's A-licensed buddy). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #35 November 1, 2005 QuoteNot wanting to be too critical here, but this is the type of statement that would have someone waiting on a backup device. I totally agree, but that is how RSL are often taught. If this jumper was taught that way, who's fault is it she misunderstood? That was my whole point. How Instructors teach and how students learn need to mesh better. Students are not going to change how they learn. How RSL's are taught needs to change and improve. Quote I agree with others above that she failed to complete her EP's and I'm pretty sure pulling the reserve ripcord was covered in her training! Sure, but she thought she was doing the right thing. I'm sure the RSL was also coverd and it is likely she misunderstood, which is why she didn't pull her reserve handle. When I was learning to fly a tail wheel aircraft, the Instructor explained what he wanted me to do. After several incorrect approaches, he explained the approach again. On the ground I thought about his first explaination and the second. They both explained what I was to do very clearly. I misunderstood. I thought I understood what he was explaining, but I didn't. I'm not an idiot and felt I was doing everything to learn to fly a tail wheel aircraft that I should be doing, but I still screwed up. What else could I have done? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #36 November 1, 2005 If she does not understand what happened and the amount of training she needs she should be grounded. If she shows up and says, "ok, now that I have seen death in my face" and becomes a good student, then she should be rewarded with many wonderful skydives to come... Wakeup call??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #37 November 1, 2005 To everyone that thinks she should be grounded because she didn't learn everything about her gear and make sure she understood everything, I have a challenge. I bet I know something about your gear that you do not. Does that mean you are just as guilty as this jumper and should be grounded? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jackpunx 0 #38 November 1, 2005 when I started AFF .. they pounded EP's on us.. I didnt even realize I had an RSL until I got through a few levels.. even then.. they still pounded EP's and not to depend on anything but our hands and eyes.. Im gratefull for it.. I understand what an RSL does now.... and I also understand that they can fail.. thats what happend to the student that went for Red instead of his PC on his first AFF.. so he cut away his main.. his RSL broke.. and back then the cypress was on the main.. so the dude was SOL until he pulled the reserve.. Now the schools have RSLs that require a tool to unhook.. but the demo/rental gear that Im on now dosnt have that.. It only takes a little pull of the fingers to release the RSL.. Kinda scary.. I wouldnt even tell the students about the RSL.. I would just pound EP's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #39 November 1, 2005 Good points. I've always considered myself both "proactive" and "inquisitive". Especially when it comes to gear, and in particular with this sport. Here's an anecdote for you based upon that: Back when I first was starting in this sport in fact, and when I purchased my very own 1st brand new rig (a reflex), I INSISTED on assembling it WITH my rigger, so that I could learn about its "inner workings", functionality, etc. etc. ...all 1st hand. Pretty good "initiative", huh? Well, as my tag-line says ...sometimes (even still) there are things you DON'T know that you don't know. -And those are the things that may just someday bite you in the ass! My rigger at the time (who is no longer my rigger for reasons that will soon become obvious) proceeded to "teach" me this "intriguing technique" that he thought he "understood" about tucking ALL of the reserve pilot chute material "securely under the decorative cap". ( -I know NOW!) As "smart" and inquisitive as I even think I am, I still missed the dire potential pitfalls of this entirely, and proceeded to make probably a couple-hundred jumps with my gear in this configuration! It wasn't until another very near incident occurred, just luckily enough (for me) to somebody else I know who cut away from a mal, and who used the same rigger and with identical gear in the exact identical configuration pulled his reserve, and TOWED his reserve PC only until FINALLY (what seemed like FOREVER to us observing on the ground) until his "catapult" (secondary reserve PC used in this set up) inflated and opened his reserve. At first it had seemed to observers that this jumper had "waited" a perilously long time too, and had he impacted, would we ever have KNOWN? My point is, that even if you seek out knowledge (as I thought I had), it's probably a good idea every now & then too, to question it, revisit it, "freshen it up", apply some further reasoning to it or what-have-you. I didn't even know what I didn't know, and I'm sure glad (or more likely supremely LUCKY) that it didn't bite me in the arse as a result. This "incident" and this experience for me only acted to redouble my commitment to learn and UNDERSTAND (and more thoroughly -for SURE!) my equipment. But until something like this actually happens to you, most of us will otherwise just not go that far, and sometimes just "accept" that they THINK they already "know". -That's what I did. I am with Sparky, and Dart, and Derek on this one. If this jumpers ATTITUDE is to be either "defensive" of what happened or not to take it seriously or sluff it off, then ground her until that changes. If it is instead a WAKE UP CALL, then respect that, don't just blindly "critisize" that, and instead use it, take advantage of it and encourage further LEARNING (and consider further learning and teaching techniques!) not only for just this (directly affected) jumper, but for us ALL! Sorry for the long post. Hopefully some of it makes some sense. Maybe not all directly related, but... Just a personal experience it reminded me of, and that I thought worthy of further SHARING, under the circumstances. BSBD, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #40 November 1, 2005 I don't think it is necessary to know EVERYTHING about your gear. But how an RSL works is one of the top things that you should understand. It should only take 30 seconds to explain how it works. It isn't that hard to understand. If you don't know or are unsure of how something works ask. Make sure you understand by telling the instructor how you think it works just to make sure you are correct. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrJones 0 #41 November 1, 2005 Dont know about the UK but Perris, a well known DZ instituted a grounding for cypress fires due to carelessness. NUR ZUM SPASS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #42 November 1, 2005 Quotedue to carelessness I ask then, as it pertains to this thread: Is a 100 jump jumper that lacks proper education/understanding of her gear, that leads to a cypres fire careless? -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #43 November 1, 2005 QuoteWhen asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ???? And people tell me that there is no such thing as device dependancy? Ground her. Make her learn and then teach you about the devices on a sport rig. Until she is able to descibe the RSL and an AAD and the limitations of both I would not let her back on the plane."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #44 November 1, 2005 I just skimmed the 42 or so posts to this thread and I agree with the general trend on agreeing that EP's need to be looked at by the instructors. What I mean and took away from this is "WE" as instructors need tobe sure we are doing our job in relating information on to students and younger jumpers. Additionally some EP training should be called for for this individual. I would be shocked if they did not seek this out themselves after this very stupid mistake they made... Thanks, Scott C. edited to remove brain fart factor on my end"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #45 November 1, 2005 QuoteDid you know that before you started skydiving, or were you taught that rule by a thorough instructor? It wasnt until I got my riggers ticket at 700 jumps that I had a thorough understanding of how a reserve works. Prior to that it was "1) Pay for a repack & 2) If I need it, open it." Was I any less responsible at 400 jumps for not knowing how my reserve was packed and "why" it works than I am now? Where do you draw the line about knowing gear? There is a HUGH difference between not kowing HOW a device works, and not knowing how to operate a device. I don't need to know HOW a reserve opens, but I do need to know how to open it. This person FAILED at the one thing we need to do and that is save our life. And the reason is that she was dependant on a device to save her. In my book that is very bad, even though it is becoming more common everyday."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #46 November 1, 2005 QuoteIF yes was it hooked up and if so was it correctly hooked up? If it was why did it NOT WORK?? PLEASE tell me you are kidding! If not I give you exhibit ALife is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #47 November 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteIF yes was it hooked up and if so was it correctly hooked up? If it was why did it NOT WORK?? PLEASE tell me you are kidding! If not I give you exhibit A OK I was so engrossed in the instruction of EP's I brain farted... I am a complete "IIIIIIIddddiiiiooooooottttttttt" I guess I could not comprehend that in a "hard pull" resulting in a "nothing out" situation that the person would think the RSL would do anything. Somuch so to the point I missposted... I will go back in my corner and feel stupid now.... Sott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 November 1, 2005 QuoteTo everyone that thinks she should be grounded because she didn't learn everything about her gear and make sure she understood everything, I have a challenge. I bet I know something about your gear that you do not. Does that mean you are just as guilty as this jumper and should be grounded? Hook, you don't need to know EVERYTHING about your gear...But you do need to know how to use that gear and in this case this jumper failed. We are all lucky she had an AAD otherwise she would be dead. THAT is enough of a reaon to ground her and make her realize that she really screwed up. That can be folled by serious education and depending on how that takes and how she reacts to it would determain if she ever jumped again at any DZ I owned."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrJones 0 #49 November 1, 2005 Yes I will say she was careless but Attitude of the jumper plays a big part here! I think our community has to see the difference. In this case, it seems to be about a gap in the education that luckily did not have a tragic result. the "You didn't know you did'nt know" phrase is a part of life and it often can teach us great lessons. But in a sport like ours that has such small margins for error, does someone have to get 3 seconds away from death to learn???? NUR ZUM SPASS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #50 November 1, 2005 QuoteIf it was why did it NOT WORK?? I believe from the 1st post that it was a total, no main to actually cutaway. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
