Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure

[P-dro 0]

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I'm just saying that the RSL could have given him a malfunctioned reserve anyway, due to body postition. It's not an argument against using one.

Do you think he would have had more or less chances of survival with a malfunctioning reserve than with nothing at all over his head?
Personnally i'd take my chances with the potential reserve malfunction....

[goose491 0]

Are you kidding me? I think you should go back a few posts..

Even what you have quoted says: "It's not an argument against using one."

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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While buddy breathing has problems...I can't see how its good not to know it.

Caused too many double fatalities. I'm not sure what problems it solves that aren't better handled by using a 5-7' hose on the primary and the octo on a necklace.

I would only advocate its use for a team (which means much more than dive buddies) who routinely practice it. The only time I ever did it was for a circus hoop stunt as part of DM training. We exchanged all our gear in a pool sharing one reg. Neat, but pretty silly.

[billvon 2,400]

>I notice you (or PilotDave) didn't bother to comment on what a one
>hand on each handle technique would have done for the jumper.

How do you know he didn't start with a one handed procedure? Note that pulling on your T-shirt with one hand will not open your reserve any faster than pulling on it with two hands.

>Anyway, there is obviously more then one way that this jumper
>could have been saved.

Of course. But RSL's are designed to prevent fatalities that involve a cutaway with no reserve deployment. In other words, they are designed to prevent exactly what happened in both cases. If you were a betting man, you'd be well-advised to bet on the RSL saving them.

[borg2050 0]

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I would have to agree with you on that. I mean, I can't see myself getting severe line twists with a wing loading of .96

You wanna bet your life on it?

Hrmm...No!

Would I want to have my reserve out if I had one of those...probably. It would seem that one handle would be better than two in that situation because of the loss of blood to the brain under a violently spinning canopy. I think Billvon said something about that a few posts back.

I've been jumping the student Spectres and now you tell me they aren't mellow.

[BrianM 1]

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If you have an RSL, your cutaway cables should be trimmed where the non-RSL riser releases first.

Read your maunal. The Javelin says they are the SAME length after the loop. 5 1/2 inches.

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"After the cables have been installed in the housings of your Javelin harness/container
there should be 5 1/2” of excess cable on the user’s left-hand and right-hand side.
These measurements are based on extensive testing and should not be altered in
anyway to change the correct operation of the RSL."

I just checked my Javelin manual, and it says:

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After the release cables have been installed in the housings of your Javelin harness & container, there should be 5" of excess cable on the user's left-hand side, and 6" of excess cable on the user's right-hand side."

I downloaded the Javelin manual from Sunpath's web site, and it agrees with yours.

Anyone know when, and why, they changed it?

Edit: I found the answer to "why?". Older Javelin's had compressible housings, newer ones have non-compressible housings: http://www.sunpath.com/service_housing.htm. It doesn't say when the switch occured.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[labrys 0]

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I've been jumping the student Spectres and now you tell me they aren't mellow

Well... you never know what you're going to get when you deploy. Odds are high you'll get a good canopy, but don't get complacent because you have a light wingloading.

I jump a Sabre2 loaded about exactly the same as your Spectre. I never thought my first cutaway would be from a violent spinner.

Guess what? My first cutaway was from a violent spinner. It was chaotic, frantic, and frightening to me. I also had utmost confidence that I would execute my EPs without a problem.

Guess what? I missed my cutaway handle twice before I pulled it. I also lost sight of my reserve handle and watched the RSL beat me to it as I located it under my chin.

I'm not a bad skydiver, borg. I'm not slow physically or mentally. Bad sh!t happens to good people. Again... please consider the advice a lot of people who know a hell of a lot more than I do are giving you.

Connect that RSL until you have first hand experience with a mal then give yourself a chance to re-evaluate.

Owned by Remi #?

[mattjw916 2]

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I've been jumping the student Spectres and now you tell me they aren't mellow.

They are mellow canopies (when lightly loaded), the point was that even the most docile canopy can open hard, open off-heading, spin-up, or just snivel forever sometimes. There are no guarantees in this sport and no magic gear combination or canopy choice will completely mitigate the odds of malfunction or death. Reviewing your EPs, maintaining your gear, and staying current will do more to keep you alive than any AAD, RSL, Skyhook, or latest wiz-bang-audio-visual-altimeter-widget although they all have their place. My $0.02.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Ron 7]

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I've been jumping the student Spectres and now you tell me they aren't mellow

Ever had it Mal on you? Even the most docile canopies can get violent when they mal.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Caused too many double fatalities. I'm not sure what problems it solves that aren't better handled by using a 5-7' hose on the primary and the octo on a necklace.

The long octo is better, but what harm is there to knowing buddy breathing?

Consider having/knowing BOTH. VS just the Octo.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[HeatherB 0]

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So:

2. Two hands per handle might have you back in freefall looking for the reserve till you impact

For what it's worth, I was taught the 2 hands per handle method, but was told to visually locate the reserve handle before chopping and to keep my eyes on it while chopping.

Not as foolproof as physically grabbing it...but it is better than blindly chopping without having checked where your reserve handle is. (pillow reserve flipped under your harness or other bad situation)

As far as RSLs...I'm willing to be that the last thing on my mind during a low canopy collision would be "hey, lemme grab that tiny litle tab on my RSL shackle so that I don't have a reserve out immediately." Has anyone actually ever done that? Sweet jesus, people.

KISS.

(I don't have an RSL....I'm just trying to imagine that scenario)

[AFFI 0]

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Sweet jesus, people.
KISS.

Ditto on the frustration and the KISS -
Keep It Simple Smartass!!! (Keep It Simple STUPID doesn’t apply since there is an abundance of genius mentality here that has it ALL figured out).

[Hooknswoop 19]

Take 100 malfunctions.

How many of those would the jumper have failed to deploy the reserve in time?

How many of the 100 does the reserve need to be deployed immediately after cutting away the main?

How many of 100 malfunctions where the RSL activates the reserve would it have been necessary for the RSL to immediately initiate the reserve deployment for the jumper?

If the answer is less than half, then the RSL results in an unstable reserve deployment when it didn’t have to be more often than not. This would mean RSL’s makes things worse more often than it makes things better.

How many people have gone in after cutting away waiting for an RSL to activate their reserve that never did?

How many people have had an AAD fire after cutting away and waiting for an RSL to activate their reserve that never did?

I have had 14 cutaways, 11 on sport gear and 3 tandem. None were with an RSL. I was able to get stable after cutting away the main each time. If I had had an RSL for those 14 jumps, the reserve would have been deployed immediately after cutting away each time, while I was unstable for all but 1 tandem where I cut away a bag lock and was stable the whole time. So for 13 of my 14 malfunctions, the RSL would have made things worse (deploying my reserve while unstable), not better, and could have resulted in a reserve malfunction.

I believe that the vast majority of malfunctions where an RSL activates the reserve for the jumper, it was unnecessary and made things worse by deploying the reserve while the jumper was unstable. Of course, given the choice between no reserve and deploying the reserve unstable, the better choice is an unstable reserve deployment. The jumper still has that option without the RSL. They lose the option of getting stable with an RSL.

The only time an RSL is a good idea is if you cutaway very low from deployed main and fail to immediately deploy your reserve or cutaway from a deployed main and fail to deploy your reserve at all. In either case, the common denominator is failing to deploy your reserve in time. There is one other instance where an RSL is a good thing, and that is if you rely on the RSL to activate the reserve for you after a cutaway and it does. In that case, having the RSL to rely on in the first place created the problem. Sort of like driving fast because you have an airbag and then being saved by it. You wouldn’t have driven fast without the airbag and avoided the need for it altogether. Sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The RSL doesn’t know if your riser broke. The RSL doesn’t know that you have plenty of altitude and don’t need an immediate reserve deployment. The RSL doesn’t know that you are in a canopy wrap and do not want an immediate reserve deployment. It activates the reserve regardless of the situation and the jumper’s need’s/want’s.

The Skyhook addresses most of these issues. Because the reserve is out of the free bag in the length of the reserve lines, an unstable reserve deployment isn’t an issue. It will release the other riser in the event the riser it is connected to breaks.

Derek

[labrys 0]

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So for 13 of my 14 malfunctions, the RSL would have made things worse (deploying my reserve while unstable), not better, and could have resulted in a reserve malfunction

Is that true of your first cutaway? Just curious and not trying to make too many waves here. You're clearly capable of handling a bad situation, but would an RSL have been a bad thing the first time you had a mal?

Owned by Remi #?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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s that true of your first cutaway? Just curious and not trying to make too many waves here. You're clearly capable of handling a bad situation, but would an RSL have been a bad thing the first time you had a mal?

Yes. I didn't need it to deploy the reserve for me and was semi-stable for my first.

Derek

[labrys 0]

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Yes. I didn't need it to deploy the reserve for me and was semi-stable for my first.

I understand that you didn't need it, but would it have been a bad thing?

Owned by Remi #?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I understand that you didn't need it, but would it have been a bad thing?

Ya, it would have made things worse, deploying my reserve while I was on my back.

Derek

[labrys 0]

Still curious here. My RSL deployed my reserve while I was on my back. Why is that bad? My understanding is that a reserve isn't designed to open at it best when you're belly to earth stable.

Edited to add: I've only seen about a half dozen reserve deployments, and the only one I saw that resulted in serious injury was the only one I saw where the reserve was deployed in a stable, belly to earth position.

That jump was a Cypres fire and the reserve PC bounced around on the guy's back a few times before it caught clean air. Not an RSL issue at all but still..... he was stable.

Owned by Remi #?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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My RSL deployed my reserve while I was on my back. Why is that bad?

Poor body position is one cause of malfunctions (poor maintenance and bad packing are the other 2 major causes of malfunctions).

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My understanding is that a reserve isn't designed to open at it best when you're belly to earth stable.

Some manufacturers recommend being a little head high for the reserve deployment. This helps the reserve PC clear the jumper's burble. I don't know of any manufacturer that recommends the jumper be unstable for reserve deployment. A little head high is not unstable.

Derek

[Icon134 0]

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I think that I'm adept enough to pull another large handle when required, but not adept enough to find that little RSL cable and disconnect it without accidently pulling on it, while having a malfunction that requires a disconnect.

Have you ever tried to disconnet an RSL post deployment or examined the system. I ask this because it is very easy to disconnect... and I don't believe it is very easy to cause an accidental deployment...

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I've been jumping the student Spectres and now you tell me they aren't mellow.

They are, by today's standards. Twenty years ago, a spectre at 0.96 would blow the doors off any but the fastest canopies around... maybe even those. Violent malfunctions and severe line twists aren't unique to highly-loaded elliptical handkerchiefs. They're just worse.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[pilotdave 0]

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Later switched back to one hand per handle as I got more experience, and now I'm back to two for a few reasons

What are they?

Well, I've talked to a bunch of people that started off with one hand per handle and had to use two on one handle or the other. I've got a modern rig with riser inserts and a lightly loaded main, so a hard cutaway isn't TOO likely, but until I've felt how much force a "live" cutaway will take, I'd rather use both hands. Also in the winter, cold hands plus two layers of gloves might give me a little less grip or hand strenth. Don't want to take any chances of my hand slipping off my cutaway pillow.

On that same point,, while of course I'll plan to pull my reserve handle after cutting away, I DO have an RSL (skyhook). As I grab my reserve handle, the chances are my reserve will already be open. RSL's can of course fail, but it's pretty unlikely. I'd prefer to focus my energy on the step that I need to get done first. It might not be a popular idea, but I believe that the reserve handle is a backup to the RSL, not the other way around. When the system works as designed, the reserve handle is unnecessary. I'll pull it anyway as a backup in case the primary system (the skyhook) fails.

Finally, if I get off my ass and do the eval jumps, I'll (hopefully) get my coach rating before the end of the year... no guarantees, i'm pretty lazy. But anyway, when I taught part of a couple FJCs before taking the course, and when I help teach it in the future, I need to teach the two hands per handle method. I ended up getting it drilled back into me, so I decided it might not be a bad idea to use what I've more recently practiced most. When the time comes, the procedures better happen automatically. After going over these procedures so many times, they came pretty automatically.

The two hands method is what was drilled into me for all of my AFF except level 1, so if I do revert back to my student training, that's what it'll be.

Anyway, those are pretty much the factors that made up my mind. The one hand per handle method is definitely faster if done right and the RSL doesnt work or isnt installed... no question about that. But with a working RSL, I believe the two hands per handle method MAY be faster. And an out of sequence cutaway procedure would negate the skyhook, slowing the reserve opening compared to what I would have gotten had I cut away first.

Geez this is too complicated... screw it, I'll let my cypres fire.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Have you ever tried to disconnet an RSL post deployment or examined the system. I ask this because it is very easy to disconnect...

In a wrap, or any other malfunction for that matter, the last thing you want is more complicated emergency procedures. Trying to remember that this is one of the malfuntions you should disconnect the RSL prior to cutting away during a malfunction and then actually doing it complicates your EP's and takes time.

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and I don't believe it is very easy to cause an accidental deployment...

It has happened before, killed the jumper too.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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'll pull it anyway as a backup in case the primary system (the skyhook) fails.

You have this backwards. You are the primary system, you pulling the reserve handle is the primary for deploying your reserve. Your Skyhook is a back up to your actions, not the primary. Do not rely on a RSL or AAD. They are strictly back ups.

Derek

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I mean, I can't see myself getting severe line twists with a wing loading of .96

Sometime when you're up high and have no traffic, try pulling one toggle until the eye in the line is even with the guide ring, to simulate one toggle being prematurely fired on opening. You'll get a pretty good spin going. Now imagine you're in that situation AND you have several line twists in the opposite direction!

That's what I had to cutaway from, and I admit I was shocked by the violence. Granted, I was flying a Diablo at 1.4 at the time, but I also had 500 jumps and plenty of experience kicking out of linetwists... something much more mellow would have seemed pretty violent at 35 jumps.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."