Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure

[labrys 0]

No, he didn't get it backwards, he expressed his opinion and he made it clear he knew the mainstream thought process:

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It might not be a popular idea, but I believe that the reserve handle is a backup to the RSL, not the other way around. When the system works as designed, the reserve handle is unnecessary. I'll pull it anyway as a backup in case the primary system (the skyhook) fails.

That might not be what you or me or anyone else chooses to believe, but there's nothing wrong with his opinion, in my opinion.

I wonder how many incidents have been caused because DZ.com exists?

Owned by Remi #?

[pilotdave 0]

Relying on the RSL means not pulling the reserve handle. Not pulling it isn't part of my plan.

Primary, secondary, backup, whatever... just words. Call it what you want. But when I look at it, my rig has two ways of deploying a reserve. One is the skyhook, which is what will perform that task when all is working properly. The second is a manual reserve handle, which I'll pull in case the automatic system fails.

I'm just the dumb operator of the system.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I wonder how many incidents have been caused because DZ.com exists?

I dunno, a lot less than have been prevented would be my guess though.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

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I wonder how many incidents have been caused because DZ.com exists?

I dunno, a lot less than have been prevented would be my guess though.

Dropzone.com is like an RSL... never mind. Not going there.

Dave

[AFFI 0]

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I think that I'm adept enough to pull another large handle when required.

I wonder how many dead skydivers that died skydiving (not waterskiing) made similar comments before they bought the big ticket becuz they were yanking on something other than thier reserve handle for the rest of thier life?

I have debated making this posting – and I am in no way suggesting that the person that made this comment or anyone in this forum is gong to become a statistic in the fatalities columns – in fact if I could have one wish granted to me by some omnipotent being with that stipulation that the granted wish could not benefit me in any way it would be that there would never be a skydiving fatality again ever. But that is as unrealistic as world peace.
But what if everyone became teachable?
What if everyone became open to the idea that theirs is not the only way?
What if everyone quit bickering so much? Some of the postings here are nothing more than evasive personal attacks.
What if everyone could calmly agree to disagree based on their assessment of FACTS rather than hearsay, assumptions and made up bullshit just to make one look cool hip experienced and intelligent?
What if I just quit typing now?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Primary, secondary, backup, whatever... just words.

It is an attitude towards your EP'' and your gear. I believe people have been saved by their AAD's and have gone in because of this attitude towards RSL's. They expect the RSL to deploy their reserve for them. Then during a real mal, they cutaway, expecting the RSL to activate the reserve. When it doesn't for whatever reason, they panic because things are not going as it is supposed to and the ground is getting big and they can't think............

Expecting the reserve not to come out until you pull the reserve handle prevents the chances of this panic. If the RSL does deploy the reserve, no harm done.

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But when I look at it, my rig has two ways of deploying a reserve.

There are 3 ways your reserve can be deployed.....

Derek

[Icon134 0]

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Have you ever tried to disconnet an RSL post deployment or examined the system. I ask this because it is very easy to disconnect...

In a wrap, or any other malfunction for that matter, the last thing you want is more complicated emergency procedures. Trying to remember that this is one of the malfuntions you should disconnect the RSL prior to cutting away during a malfunction and then actually doing it complicates your EP's and takes time.

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and I don't believe it is very easy to cause an accidental deployment...

It has happened before, killed the jumper too.

Derek

I stand corrected... thanks for the heads up...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[HeatherB 0]

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There are 3 ways your reserve can be deployed.....

How about 4:

Reserve Handle
RSL/Skyhook
AAD
Dislodged pin (it happens...)

[kelpdiver 2]

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The long octo is better, but what harm is there to knowing buddy breathing?

Too many dead bodies in the past. A large part of your complaint about RSLs, for that matter, though I think your motivation is more about device dependency or the device enabling people to act like idiots.

In our modern era, having an OOA emergency underwater requires idiocy as well. These people are least likely to safely buddy breathe, a skill that requires far more practice than people will do. There are more useful skills to know, with much more applicability.

---
Does everyone here agree with the idea that the OP should stick to using the RSL until his first mal? I think he's reading the negatives and skipping over that near consensus.

[labrys 0]

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I wonder how many incidents have been caused because DZ.com exists?

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I dunno, a lot less than have been prevented would be my guess though.

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Dropzone.com is like an RSL... never mind. Not going there.

Hooknswoop, line, and sinker. Priceless

Owned by Remi #?

[AFFI 0]

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There are 3 ways your reserve can be deployed.....

How about 4:
Reserve Handle
RSL/Skyhook
AAD
Dislodged pin (it happens...)

Good freaking call Heather! I have seen this one and watched a friend ride in spinning and screaming! Luckily he is made of rubber, things went his way. Even though I witnessed this I have overlooked the dislogged pin as the fourth.

Thanks for reminding me that I dont have it all figured out!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Ron 7]

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That might not be what you or me or anyone else chooses to believe, but there's nothing wrong with his opinion, in my opinion.

You see nothing wrong with putting the RSL above the reserve pull?

You do know that people have died when they thought that way right?

It AMAZES me how some people think.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Well, I've talked to a bunch of people that started off with one hand per handle and had to use two on one handle or the other. I've got a modern rig with riser inserts and a lightly loaded main, so a hard cutaway isn't TOO likely, but until I've felt how much force a "live" cutaway will take, I'd rather use both hands. Also in the winter, cold hands plus two layers of gloves might give me a little less grip or hand strenth. Don't want to take any chances of my hand slipping off my cutaway pillow.

That is at least well thought out.

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I'd prefer to focus my energy on the step that I need to get done first. It might not be a popular idea, but I believe that the reserve handle is a backup to the RSL, not the other way around.

That is dangerous thinking. Your energy should be on stopping the skydive, and that means reserve pull not cutaway.

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When the system works as designed, the reserve handle is unnecessary. I'll pull it anyway as a backup in case the primary system (the skyhook) fails.

While not shocked that some think this way, I am amazed that some claim that device dependacy does not exist.

I would BEG you to rethink your labeling of the reserve handle as secondary back to primary.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mnealtx 0]

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Not according to the DESIGNER of the 3-ring system:

To which your post just told ALL people who skydive to cut one shorter than the other.

Are you a rigger? Do you think its wise to make such statements as "Fact" when at least on maker of containers said the opposite of what you recomended?

Also you missed this part of Bills post :"In truth, the 2" differential really doesn't matter. If we assume you are pulling your cutaway handle at just 5 feet (60 inches) per second (most people pull a lot faster), then the 2" differential represents only 1/30 th of a second between riser releases."

So in fact your own "proof" states it does not matter.
But you stated something as fact when in fact it was not (as evidenced by Sunpaths manual), and your proof stated it does not matter. That is a weak position to claim you are correct.

If you had said' "Relative Workshop recomends", that would be one thing, but you said they ALL should be and that is wrong.

Actually, I was using not only the guidance listed in my first post, but information given by several different riggers here on the site.

Obviously, my bad for not putting the "rigger disclaimer" in my OP.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pilotdave 0]

As I said, call it primary or secondary or whatever you want. The fact is that when the rig operates under normal working conditions, the RSL is what pulls the reserve pin. If the RSL was 100% reliable, there'd be no need for a reserve handle. The fact is RSLs do fail, so we train ourselves to pull the reserve handle. With a skyhook, probably 99 out of 100 times (no I don't have data to back that up), the quickest way to stop a skydive is by cutting away.... assuming the main is already out. Course it'd be dangerous to think that cutting away will end every skydive.

Our hanging harness doesn't have an RSL so I practice without it.
The RSL pulls the reserve pin just like the main pilot chute pulls the main pin. It's the way the system works. But because of a failure mode in the RSL, we can't rely on it the way we rely on a main pilot chute. Then again, some people are such control freaks they use pullout deployment systems. (yes, that was sarcasm)

Dave

[borg2050 0]

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I've been jumping the student Spectres and now you tell me they aren't mellow

Well... you never know what you're going to get when you deploy. Odds are high you'll get a good canopy, but don't get complacent because you have a light wingloading.

I jump a Sabre2 loaded about exactly the same as your Spectre. I never thought my first cutaway would be from a violent spinner.

Guess what? My first cutaway was from a violent spinner. It was chaotic, frantic, and frightening to me. I also had utmost confidence that I would execute my EPs without a problem.

Guess what? I missed my cutaway handle twice before I pulled it. I also lost sight of my reserve handle and watched the RSL beat me to it as I located it under my chin.

I'm not a bad skydiver, borg. I'm not slow physically or mentally. Bad sh!t happens to good people. Again... please consider the advice a lot of people who know a hell of a lot more than I do are giving you.

Connect that RSL until you have first hand experience with a mal then give yourself a chance to re-evaluate.

I'm swaying so much. Now it seems I want the RSL.

[goose491 0]

OMG! shocking... truly shocking...

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The fact is that when the rig operates under normal working conditions, the RSL jumper is what pulls the reserve pin. If the RSL jumper was 100% reliable, there'd be no need for a reserve handle RSL. The fact is RSLs do fail, so we train ourselves to pull the reserve handle on time.

There, I fixed it for ya... this is the way it's actually done in the real world.

NOTE: There are many a thread on the topic of trying to avoid teaching BRAND NEW SKYDIVERS what you have just posted as you basic line of thinking.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[AFFI 0]

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The fact is that when the rig operates under normal working conditions, the RSL jumper is what pulls the reserve pin. If the RSL jumper was 100% reliable, there'd be no need for a reserve handle RSL. The fact is RSLs do fail, so we train ourselves to pull the reserve handle on time.

There, I fixed it for ya... this is the way it's actually done in the real world.

Good corrections...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[LawnDart21 0]

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The fact is that when the rig JUMPER operates under normal working conditions, the RSL jumper is what pulls the reserve pin. If the RSL jumper was 100% reliable, there'd be no need for a reserve handle RSL. The fact is RSLs people do fail, even though we train ourselves to pull the reserve handle on time, some people choose to add auxillary safety devices to thier equipement to increase their chance of survival if they do not perform as they were trained to do in an emergency

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There, I fixed it for ya... this is the way it's actually done in the real world.

If the jumper operates as he or she is supposed to %100 of the time, this thread would not exist.

This thread exists because people are not infallible, and when they do screw up, it is then that the design/functionality of these auxillary safety devices assume the responsibility of performing the action that the jumper failed to perform. Is that device dependancy? Yup. Would I rather have an device dependant jumper alive to debate with in the forums or a dead non-device dependant jumper that I cant debate in the forums?

Under that context, pilotdave's post about gear typically working the way it's supposed to, is quite correct as he wrote it. If the RSL worked every time the way it was supposed to, pulling the reserve handle would serve no function, as the RSL would always open the reserve in a cutaway from a malfunction (totals aside). But of course RSLs dont always work as intended, hence the need for pulling the reserve handle every time you cutaway to ensure a resevre opening in the event the RSL malfunctions.

So again, reaffirming pilotdave's comment, if an RSL works every time (%100 reliable) then there would be no need to pull the reserve handle, because at %100 reliability, which is a farce of course, any time the risers left the container, the reserve would be activated. Only a total mal, where cutting away would not release the risers from the jumper, would requre a reserve pull under Dave's hypothesis.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[AFFI 0]

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I believe that the vast majority of malfunctions where an RSL activates the reserve for the jumper, it was unnecessary and made things worse by deploying the reserve while the jumper was unstable.

I have been on location at DZ's for many cutaways utilizing an RSL. How many? Couldent say other than to say MANY. Not once has the jumper burned in but rather 100% landed safely. My limited experience suggests that in every instance I have been present for not once did the situation worsen for the jumper because the end result was landing safely. I personally know what it is like to kick linetwists out of a reserve due to an unstable reserve activation but the end result was landing my reserve safely rather that landing the spinning piece of crap that was above my head. So I am not cewrtain that I would suscribe to the notion that use of an RSL makes things worse the majority of the time...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Andy9o8 0]

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I'm swaying so much. Now it seems I want the RSL.

Tim, you're swaying because there are well-though-out arguments on both sides of the issue. You've probably learned a lot about RSL's in this thread, both pro and con. Enough to confuse you, eh? But one thing we've ALL been trying to get you to appreciate is just how much you clearly DON'T understand about RSL's and their use. At 30-some jumps, even with a license, you're still very much a student. Online opinions are no substitute for speaking to instructors and riggers in person. I see you jump at Z-Hills. They have great resources there, by way of instructors and riggers who you should take the time to sit down with and have lengthy discussions with until you (and they) are certain that you truly have enough understanding of this important issue for you to make an informed, intelligent choice. In the meantime, you need to keep an open mind. If the only opinions you listen to are those that support your preconceived notions, then you're not really listening.

[pilotdave 0]

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OMG! shocking... truly shocking...

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The fact is that when the rig operates under normal working conditions, the RSL jumper is what pulls the reserve pin. If the RSL jumper was 100% reliable, there'd be no need for a reserve handle RSL. The fact is RSLs do fail, so we train ourselves to pull the reserve handle on time.

There, I fixed it for ya... this is the way it's actually done in the real world.

NOTE: There are many a thread on the topic of trying to avoid teaching BRAND NEW SKYDIVERS what you have just posted as you basic line of thinking.

Actually, no, that's not how "it's actually done in the real world." That's a great way to pretend it works, and a great way to teach how it works, but it's not the way it really works. When a jumper has an RSL, and the RSL works, as they do most of the time, it is NOT the reserve handle that pulls the reserve pin. That's just incorrect. We TRAIN as if it was true, whether or not we use an RSL. Not because the RSL is a backup, but because the RSL might not do its job.

If jumpers were 100% reliable, we wouldn't need a lot of things... RSLs are one of them. But we're not 100% reliable, so many people recommend the use of RSLs. I agree with those people, but that's got nothing to do with my post. I'm talking about the reliability of RSLs, and why we still need to pull the reserve handle after cutting away. You can "fix" my post to talk about pink elephants if you want, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.

I'm posting to answer the question of why I choose to use both hands on each handle. I'm not posting to tell anybody that pulling the reserve handle is unimportant if you have a cutaway. I don't believe that any more than you do. What I said is factual, not opinion, not attitude. When an RSL works properly, it pulls the reserve. The jumper pulls a handle that does absolutely nothing because the pin was already pulled. That's a fact. But I do agree that everybody needs to plan and practice to pull both handles no matter what, because RSLs DO fail. When I practice my EPs, I don't even consider the fact that the RSL may or may not do its job. I just follow the procedure. But I did take the RSL into consideration when choosing what procedure to use.

Call it device dependence if you choose. The reserve handle is a device, the main pilot chute is a device, the harness is a device, etc, etc, etc. Because we can't survive freefall without any special devices, we're all 100% device dependent.

Dave

[goose491 0]

My aim was to correct the portrayal of RSL as the primary reserve activation means and of the jumper pulling the reserve handle as the "backup, secondary or whatever"

That was all. I realise why our gear has backup devices. It's just UBER-important that we not become backup devices to our gear.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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When an RSL works properly, it pulls the reserve. The jumper pulls a handle that does absolutely nothing because the pin was already pulled. That's a fact.

It's not that I don't understand you Dave. It's that I cringe at the thought of a first-timer reading your posts.

The fact that it can be faster-acting then you and will likely beat you to the punch does not make YOU backup for IT.

I'll try to speak your language. You know how they say it's better to have and not need, then to need and not have, about stuff? Well think like that about proper EPs, rather then thinking like that about the strap connecting your main to your reserve pin. When you say pulling the reserve handle does nothing, I understand you. But it must be drilled into your head that the reserve handle gets pulled no matter what. (If you chose not to, that's fine, but don't share it on public domain, for newbies to misunderstand. lol.)

Do you know why? Imagine a case where your RSL has been disconnected and you don't know of it (it has happened). You have a mal and you chop.

There was a jumper who cutaway a total mal. She then waited for her RSL. Now I'm not saying that you would misunderstand you gear like she did... But if you spend each day thinking "pulling the reserve handle does nothing", then I wonder if you practice pulling one after the other.

There is also the chance that the actual RSL fails. Unlikely, but I'd hate to encounter it having trained myself to react very poorly to it.

Anyway, the above all lend themselves to the same possibility. On that day, you cutaway and find yourself in freefall... You say to yourself: "nothing happened, wtf? Why didn't my RSL work? I'd better pull my...,

And that takes precious time away from you. You may very well spend the rest of your life "deciding" that pulling your reserve handle really does do something.


OR...you could be around to tell people you didn't even think about it until after you were in the saddle thinking: "WTF? Did I just pull my own pin?"

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,400]

>My aim was to correct the portrayal of RSL as the primary reserve
> activation means and of the jumper pulling the reserve handle as
> the "backup, secondary or whatever"

This is one of those silly sematic arguments. "Primary" means either "first" or "main." The RSL does pull the pin before you can, 99% of the time, so if you choose one definition it's the primary means. Heck, in the Vector, the reserve handle just pulls the RSL pin; the RSL is what holds the reserve closed. So that would make the RSL the primary method of reserve activation.

Most skydivers, though, understand that the standard method of activating the reserve is by pulling the handle and that you have to do this anyway.