Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure

[LawnDart21 0]

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I disagree. The RSL, as designed, works conditionally, ONLY when the main is out.

The next sentence in that post:

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it is your primary pin puller when connected and your cutting away from a partial mal. (Totals excluded).

Would you say there is a higher occurance of partial mals (something overhead) or total mals?

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The RSL, as designed, works conditionally, ONLY when the main is out.

Its my opinion there are a higher number of partial mals than total mals that occur (as the mains are rarely still in the container when I am given it for a reserve repack), so the majority of malfunctions do have a main out to cutaway.

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The reserve ripcord handle, as designed, will activate the reserve deployment in all situations.

I agree with you 100% from an EP perspective.

Edit to add:

I think Bills comment on semantics might apply here. I'm not saying that your reserve handle shouldnt be a jumpers primary response to a break away. I absolutely positively believe that it is the jumpers primary release option for the reserve,

All I was referring to the RSL as a function was that when connected, and when breaking away from a canopy over head, the RSL will pull the pin before the jumper does with the reserve handle. So, that was my pirmary comment, that the RSL actually pulled the pin first, when attached and if/when it worked the way it was supposed to. That was all I was saying.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I am gonna end this. I think your attitude is dangerous. People have died thinking like you. for your sake I hope your RSL never fails.

And people have died thinking "I don't need any backup devices. My left hand is my AAD." Well, they were probably actually thinking more like "damn I wish I had an AAD right about now."
. . .

Saying that my RSL is most likely going to pull my reserve pin after a cutaway is a fact, it's not attitude or opinion. It's the way the gear works. It's not a part of the emergency procedures though.

I have used rigs without an RSL. Doesn't change anything procedurally, but it DOES change the inner workings of the rig. That's the beauty of an RSL... it's totally transparent to the user. Nothing new to learn.

Dave

Nothing you add to your gear should be transparent, whether it be an RSL or an AAD. There are situations where either one can be a safety hazzard. Just like there are situations where either can save your life.

Thinking they are "transparent" and that the jumper has "nothing new to learn" is a recipe for disaster.

For Great Deals on Gear

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Would you say there is a higher occurance of partial mals (something overhead) or total mals?

I would think partial. I'm not saying that an RSL is never going to work. I'm just saying that the ripcord will work virtually all the time, while certain conditions must be met for the RSL to activate the reserve, even if those conditions are met most of the time. So the RSL is indeed a back-up.

For Great Deals on Gear

[LawnDart21 0]

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So the RSL is indeed a back-up.

Agreed.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Therefore RSL's make things worse more often than they make things better.

You believe that because you have heard about the fatalities due to RSL's (of which there are a few) but don't hear about the hundreds of RSL saves. I know 4-5 people personally who have been saved by RSL's, and no one who has ever been injured by one. Most skydivers have similar experiences.

A better comparison would be to compare the number of people killed by use of an RSL and the number of people who died due to the lack of an RSL - since both those incidents _are_ reported.

I don't think it is as simple as # jumpers killed vs. number saved.

Airbags fire when you hit something. Imagine if they fired when you hit something or jammed on the brakes hard. The save vs. kill rate for airbags wouldn't change, but they would go off a lot more often than needed, instead of rarely going off when not needed. People wouldn't have airbags anymore.

That is the same thing for RSL's. They go off regardless if you need them or not. In most cases, they are not needed and shouldn't activate the reserve so quickly. For 100 malfunctions, how many would an RSL be needed and how many would it not be needed?

Derek

[kelpdiver 2]

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Saying that my RSL is most likely going to pull my reserve pin after a cutaway is a fact, it's not attitude or opinion.

Dave, we don't need no stinking facts!

Makes for far shorter conversations.

[billvon 2,400]

>I don't think it is as simple as # jumpers killed vs. number saved.

It is as simple as saying "RSL's make things worse more often than they make things better." Both are simplifications.

>Airbags fire when you hit something. Imagine if they fired when you
>hit something or jammed on the brakes hard. The save vs. kill rate
> for airbags wouldn't change, but they would go off a lot more often
> than needed, instead of rarely going off when not needed. People
> wouldn't have airbags anymore.

That would be true if RSL's interfered with normal skydiving (i.e. landable deployments, including line twist, closed end cells etc.) They don't.

A better example would be an ABS system that assists in stopping every time you skid. It doesn't prevent accidents 99% of the time. But that 1% of the time it might. Might you have stopped anyway in time? Maybe. Might a skilled driver be able to do slightly _better_ than an ABS system on ice, perhaps by handbrake turning the car? Perhaps. But people buy them, and they do save lives.

>For 100 malfunctions, how many would an RSL be needed and
>how many would it not be needed?

Probably 99 times out of 100 you don't need it. If a DZ like Perris or Eloy sees 100 malfunctions a year, that means RSL's save one life a year.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Well, he could start with the cable, at the housing, and go from there... But no, I wouldn't expect a student to have the presence of mind required during a malfunction. The RSL is compulsory for students.

How do you know that? Have you been to real EM?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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A better example would be an ABS system

I don't think tht is better, since stopping faster doesn't make things worse when you don't need to sto faster. No harm done if you stop faster. But with an RSL, you can get an unstable reserve deployment. That can be a problem. If the RSL was only 'armed' if you were below about 1000 feet, it would be a great device.

Derek

[billvon 2,400]

>since stopping faster doesn't make things worse when you don't
>need to sto faster. No harm done if you stop faster.

Sure it can. If you are a skilled driver, you can stop faster/manuever better in a car without ABS than in a car with ABS. In other words, if you do everything right, it can sometimes actually hurt you. Such times are rare, but are given as a reason why some drivers don't want it.

[phoenixlpr 0]

AFAK ABS won't stop you faster, but it helps you keep the control over steering....

Its not a good example, skydiving gear and car don't mix.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Its not a good example, skydiving gear and car don't mix.

I take this back.

ABS is a good example. If you don't consider that you have ABS and you pump breaks as you would do without it you might get offroad or etc. So you have to act different if you have it.

[goose491 0]

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Well, he could start with the cable, at the housing, and go from there... But no, I wouldn't expect a student to have the presence of mind required during a malfunction. The RSL is compulsory for students.

How do you know that? Have you been to real EM?

(Clarified in PM, he is asking how I know if I have never had a malfunction)

I have had a malfunction. Just one, it was a lineover. I pulled both my handles.

It's a good thing I pulled them both, I don't jump with an RSL.

Now, I'm still unsure about what you're looking for... do I answer your inquiry?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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If you want to read that as I am preaching device dependance, then so be it. I don't think I am, but I've been wrong before.

I don't think you are really, but I don't think Pilotdave is either.

However, here is the problem. A low timer reads "I consider the ripcord to be a backup to the RSL".

And they take from that that the RSL should deploy the reserve. Then we have people like the lady in the CYPRES save thread in this same forum.

Its not about the facts here (you are both 100% that the RSL should beat any jumper to the Reserve pull). But it is about what we STRESS as important. A newer jumper might just depend on the RSL and when it does not do the job freak out and then its up to the AAD or the ground to stop them.

Like I said just read the CYPRES save thread for an example.

I think we should stress saving your own life and that all these great devices are backups to YOU, not the other way around. That way when we fail the device might save us. Not when it fails we might save ourselves.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I've never met or talked to anyone that failed to pull their reserve handle after cutting away and ended up having a cypres fire or worse

Please see the CYPRES save thread on this very forum.

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Did they understand how their gear works and just forget?

Maybe they heard an advanced jumper say, "I treat the Reserve handle as a backup". And they ignored the part about pulling it anyway since its only a backup.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tso-d_chris 0]

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If you want to read that as I am preaching device dependance, then so be it. I don't think I am, but I've been wrong before.

I don't think you are really, but I don't think Pilotdave is either.

However, here is the problem. A low timer reads "I consider the ripcord to be a backup to the RSL".

And they take from that that the RSL should deploy the reserve. Then we have people like the lady in the CYPRES save thread in this same forum.

Its not about the facts here (you are both 100% that the RSL should beat any jumper to the Reserve pull). But it is about what we STRESS as important. A newer jumper might just depend on the RSL and when it does not do the job freak out and then its up to the AAD or the ground to stop them.

Like I said just read the CYPRES save thread for an example.

I think we should stress saving your own life and that all these great devices are backups to YOU, not the other way around. That way when we fail the device might save us. Not when it fails we might save ourselves.

Well said.

For Great Deals on Gear

[mattjw916 2]

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I've never met or talked to anyone that failed to pull their reserve handle after cutting away and ended up having a cypres fire or worse

Read here: http://www.cypres.cc/Downloads/6_5_Saveslist/Official_saves_list_20050531.pdf

There are so many "dead" people in that document it's mind-boggling. It illustrates that some people "need" an AAD or an RSL to skydive. I know a lot of people that won't jump without both because they aren't "safe"

Al Gramando summed it up in a conversation we had once, "there are a lot of people that wouldn't be jumping if they started 20 years ago." He was referring to the fact they would have long-since killed themselves and that AADs and their gear saved them, instead of pulling handles in order.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pilotdave 0]

From the other thread:

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jumper with 100+ jumps hard a hard pull went back for second attempt, again hard pull.
She them pulled the cutaway ONLY and went back to position. Cypress fired, and she landed out safely.

When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve.

It was discussed to death over there and just like every thread, it wanders all over the place so I might have missed more info about this incident.

I understand your point. Sometimes correct information in the wrong hands can be dangerous. But here's my question (which may have been answered in the other thread): had she ever logged on to the safety and training forum of dropzone.com? Where did she get the idea in her head that cutting away could possibly work in that situation? Was she a dumbass?

I am asking because, well, I wonder if we worry about what we say in here for a good reason or not. This thread has ~200 posts, most of which repeat "pull the reserve handle" somewhere in them. A couple posts refer to the reserve handle as being a backup, with an explanation of what was meant by the word backup and a repetition that the reserve handle must be pulled. Is it truly possible for someone that wasn't already on a path toward a darwin award to come away from this thread thinking "gee I won't have to bother pulling my reserve handle if I pull my cutaway handle?"

What gets taught at a first jump course is a different story. I can assure you I'd never call a reserve handle a backup in that sort of setting.

Dave

[AFFI 0]

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I personally know what it is like to kick linetwists out of a reserve due to an unstable reserve activation but the end result was landing my reserve safely rather that landing the spinning piece of crap that was above my head. So I am not cewrtain that I would suscribe to the notion that use of an RSL makes things worse the majority of the time...

People have gone in from unstable reserve deployments. No line twists on the reserve is better than line twists. Therefore RSL's make things worse more often than they make things better.

Derek

Ahhhh, but I was not incorporating an RSL on the jump that I had to kick out of line twists. Truth of the matter I was still a total novice skydiver with only around 200 jumps and was in the “thought I knew it all” stage and deploying lower than my hard deck for my license level allowed me to - I was out of altitude and out of time when I finally initiated EP's which was not long after I deployed the main. In fact I fired both handles so quickly with very bad form that had my cutaway handle had a hard extraction there is a very good chance I may have had an out of sequence reserve deployment. So I got a repack and went on with my low pull phase.

That is why I endeavor to be patient with jumpers of the “know it all” mentality because I understand completely what it is like to be in a testosterone drenched stupor reeking with self righteous indignation and totally convinced that my superior intellect placed me head and shoulders above those that should be competing in the special Olympics (I.E. everyone but me). Ultimately gravity taught me some lessons that I was fortunate enough to survive and to learn from – gravity awarded me a level of humility that taught me that I can actually learn a lot from others of all experience levels if I just shut my mouth and open not only my ears but my mind as well. As a result my subsequent chop from a bag lock went perfectly in the EP executions aspect.

People have gone in with a downplane, people have cutaway a downplane and the RSL tension knotted around the reserve flap and they went in, people have done everything right and still died - we can and are debating this ad nauseam but the bottom line is shit happens and when it is your time there is nothing you can do about it...
More later…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[goose491 0]

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I am asking because, well, I wonder if we worry about what we say in here for a good reason or not. This thread has ~200 posts, most of which repeat "pull the reserve handle" somewhere in them.

But you yourself are a real person. Who has a life outside of DZ.com. It is very possible that what you type here is what you say out loud in the real world. So though it is typed several times to "pull your reserve handle", when one person says: "pulling the reserve handle does nothing", or "I am a backup to my RSL", you find some are quick to tell you not to think like that... truly, what they(we) mean is: "Don't speak like that".

Just like Ron said, you are 100% correct in the technical description of what occurs with your gear during a cutaway. But the dellivery, the actual method and the terminology used.... All it takes is one person to read it once and misunderstand... well, and then of course, one jump.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[AFFI 0]

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I have read some of the discussions (arguments) about RSLs and would like a few opinions from both sides about this.

QUESTION:
Would it make more sense to leave the RSL disconnected (throughout freefall) until under canopy than to have it connected the entire time?

I am thinking that this may prevent a high-altitude main / reserve entanglement, while preventing accidental death from a low cutaway due to: a canopy collision, canopy pilot-induced line twists (low altitude), etc...

I always pull at 5,000 ft--so the RSL wouldn't make much sense, unless I had a low-altitude canopy collision.

This post might take 5 whole minutes of your life to read but it might be worth it…

I don’t personally utilize an RSL but my wife does, I insist on it because I believe it increases her safety as she is still a beginner (only 100 jumps), has not had a chop yet and I love her so I make certain she is trained up and jumps well maintained Cypress equipped gear. For reasons all of which have been debated here I choose not to use an RSL (I practice my EP procedures religiously, have jumped DAILY for over 5 years, fly camera equipment on almost every skydive I make and I RARELY deploy below 4k). If I did not fly a camera on virtually every jump I would utilize a skyhook system in my Micron to lead by EXAMPLE (I actually have my students pin check me before we board and exit - etcetera).

There is not a “single answer solution” to this debate that applies to everyone.

Although this thread had produced some intriguing thought provoking and interesting debate lets not loose sight of the fact that this thread was started by a skydiver at the very west end of the novice spectrum, just off student status. There are very compelling arguments on both sides of this topic but the question is should a beginner skydiver with 35 jumps utilize and RSL/Skyhook in their equipment until they are able to make a better informed decision? I think from what I have seen in this thread is mostly in the YES category and the person who started this thread has been given some compelling information on both sides of the fence to contemplate. The idea is to skydive and not get killed doing it, this months incident reports illustrated that “experience” does not make a skydiver invincible. Although limited, in my experience (both as a cocky bastard and a teachable student who realized he was lucky to be alive) I believe that when I had 32 or 320 jumps I was much more likely to make a self induced fatal decision than I am now with over 3300 most of which I made in the last 5 years.

If I work at two DZ’s, and one teaches two hands per handle and one teaches one hand per handle I will teach as the DZ I am representing asks me to. As a U.S.P.A. Solo Freefall Instructor it is my duty as a representative of the U.S.P.A. to adhere to their safety recommendations, so I don’t take students through clouds, in heavy winds and which does recommend that skydivers of all experience levels incorporate and RSL type device in their gear unless they fall into a specific category which investigation suggests that an RSL device might create a safety hazard. Jim Crouch wrote an in depth article about this issue on page 50 of the November 2005 issue of Parachutist Magazine. So as a U.S.P.A. Solo Freefall Instructor I teach the students I work with every conceivable aspect of the proper utilization of an RSL device and recommend they incorporate the use of one until they have a situation that necessitates they disconnect it or they one day fall into a specific category which investigation suggests that an RSL device might create a safety hazard. It is my duty to the U.S.P.A., it is my duty to properly inform and train the human beings whose lives are put into my hands to train them to do something inherently dangerous and it is my duty to myself so I can sleep at night. If the U.S.P.A. recommended that I create violations in my value system than I would not be a U.S.P.A. member much less an instructor but they do not – AND – I do not necessarily agree with every word in the SIM but the seal that I stamp on cards is a U.S.P.A. seal, the seal that is on my license to instruct is a U.S.P.A. seal. The same holds true in my spiritual life, I am given only 10 rules and it is my duty to adhere to them and I do so as best as I can. That is not to say I have never committed a BSR violation or a sin – I just do the best I can and try to get better as I get older.

I really do love all you people out there, from the crazy non teachable know it alls to the gurus and to those who are in the middle. I learn from all of you and although it may not seem like it all the time because I will often plays devils advocate to generate input for the collective genius I really am appreciative of all the contribution everyone makes.
It shows that all of you care about something.

To BORG2050 - I strongly suggest you adhere to all of the U.S.P.A.'s reccomendations concerning every aspect of skydiving AND utilization of an RSL device and PERSONALLY I would tell you to buy yourself a vector with a Skyhook system because I believe in the engineering put into the design of Bill Booth's products...

More later…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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then its up to the AAD or the ground to stop them.

What a brilliant line - may I use it as my own???

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you want to read that as I am preaching device dependance, then so be it. I don't think I am, but I've been wrong before.

I don't think you are really, but I don't think Pilotdave is either.

However, here is the problem. A low timer reads "I consider the ripcord to be a backup to the RSL".

They might if you keep repeating that they should read it that way. Isn't this a violation of the principle: tell people what they should do, not what they shouldn't. The latter puts bad ideas in their minds they may not have had prior.

Sheesh, do we really have to dumb down the conversation just because someone *might* misread it? What happened to their responsibility as skydivers?

[kelpdiver 2]

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>since stopping faster doesn't make things worse when you don't
>need to sto faster. No harm done if you stop faster.

Sure it can. If you are a skilled driver, you can stop faster/manuever better in a car without ABS than in a car with ABS. In other words, if you do everything right, it can sometimes actually hurt you. Such times are rare, but are given as a reason why some drivers don't want it.

The dual purpose BMW motorcycle has an off switch for the ABS. Works like shit on the dirt.

[borg2050 0]

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To BORG2050 - I strongly suggest you adhere to all of the U.S.P.A.'s reccomendations concerning every aspect of skydiving AND utilization of an RSL device and PERSONALLY I would tell you to buy yourself a vector with a Skyhook system because I believe in the engineering put into the design of Bill Booth's products...

This discussion is filled with a plethora of GOOD arguments. Throughout this discussion, I have noticed a trend. No matter how bad the RSL could possibly be, it seems that everyone agrees that people with jump numbers similar to mine should use the RSL. You may not use one, but you trust it with the life of your wife. I think that says something. Not to mention the very reason they were created: jumpers managed to cut away...but not pull the reserve. I don't know why that happens, and I really don't know how it happens to experts. As for now, I'm going to use the RSL until I can get the skyhook system.

I am VERY thankful to ALL of the posters of this thread. I feel that DZ.com is a great resource and gateway to speaking with the experts of the sport.