Opinions wanted about a 2-step RSL procedure

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The fact is that when the rig operates under normal working conditions, the RSL is what pulls the reserve pin.

Only if the main is out, cutaway, and the RSL is connected.

I really think that thinking of the RSL as the primary is a mistake. I don't understand why you wouldn't think of yourself pulling the reserve handle as the primary method of activating the reserve. What if you have a total? What if the RSL has become disconnected? What if you are jumping a different rig with no RSL? There is no good reason to not think of the reserve handle as the primary reserve activation methid.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I personally know what it is like to kick linetwists out of a reserve due to an unstable reserve activation but the end result was landing my reserve safely rather that landing the spinning piece of crap that was above my head. So I am not cewrtain that I would suscribe to the notion that use of an RSL makes things worse the majority of the time...

People have gone in from unstable reserve deployments. No line twists on the reserve is better than line twists. Therefore RSL's make things worse more often than they make things better.

Derek

[goose491 0]

It is my thought that those things you might call "silly sematics", just might be the root cause of new jumpers misunderstandings and blatant misuse of their gear.

The post I responded to said in black and white that "Pulling the reserve handle does nothing".

I clearly stated that I know what he means... but that it is unnacceptable to state that YOU are the backup to the RSL.


... come on Bill, don't give me a hard time with "sematics" today, PilotDaves post is right there for you to consult. You wouldn't teach your students like that, and this is hardly a case where you chould feel responsible saying: "You teach the way you like."

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,400]

>Therefore RSL's make things worse more often than they make things better.

You believe that because you have heard about the fatalities due to RSL's (of which there are a few) but don't hear about the hundreds of RSL saves. I know 4-5 people personally who have been saved by RSL's, and no one who has ever been injured by one. Most skydivers have similar experiences.

A better comparison would be to compare the number of people killed by use of an RSL and the number of people who died due to the lack of an RSL - since both those incidents _are_ reported.

[goose491 0]

<>

Not downplaying it, but it is FACT that each one you call a "save", would also have been saved by pulling their own handle, on time.

... Or are you certain they would not have been able to do so? It's tough to prove a negative.

Just as when you say there are very few cases of an RSL actually contributing to an incident or fatality. I can answer that there are many more experienced jumpers not using the RSL then there are that do. If more jumped with one, then we might just see more incidents to which they were a contributing factor.

... Or are you certain that we wouldn't? It's tough to prove a negative.

Why don't we stick to the "Make your own decision and then stick to it" that we have all agreed upon. Then we must discuss things rationally and AGREE that the things we say about it today, affect how the next generation of skydivers will "KNOW" their gear?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,400]

> but it is FACT that each one you call a "save", would also have been
>saved by pulling their own handle, on time.

Right. Some couldn't. Rick Horn couldn't find his due to harness distortion. Jeff (student of mine) couldn't find his handle because he had pulled it out of its pocket, then let it go to "help" pull the cutaway handle. They likely would have died (or at least had very low reserve openings) if not for their RSL.

>Then we must discuss things rationally and AGREE that the things we
> say about it today, affect how the next generation of skydivers
> will "KNOW" their gear?

Dude, your advice to experience ratio is getting VERY high. Nothing wrong with chatting about safety stuff, but with more experience you will have a better base from which to consider safety issues.

[goose491 0]

<>

1) I was not giving advice

2) The wave of people misunderstanding the safety devices in their gear to the point of depending on them (even in instances where their proper operation would not have them save you), is a considerable safety issue no matter how many jumps I have.

If you want to say "Shut up", say that, don't "veil" it "thinly" lol

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LawnDart21 0]

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My aim was to correct the portrayal of RSL as the primary reserve activation means and of the jumper pulling the reserve handle as the "backup, secondary or whatever"

I hear what your saying, but the bottom line is that on an RSL equipped rig, the RSL (when it works, and it works most of the time) is the primary pin puller, and the reserve handle becomes a secondary redundant mechanism.

That doesnt make pulling the reserve handle any less important in an emergency, but like how it sounds or not, if you choose to jump with an RSL, it is your primary pin puller when connected and your cutting away from a partial mal. (Totals excluded). That is not an inappropriate thing for someone to convey on this board.

And as I stated in another thread somewhere, if you "beat the RSL" you are basically initiating an out of sequence deployment, opening your reserve before your main is safely cut away. RSLs by design release the reserve at the earliest safest point after the main risers have been released. To "beat the RSL" is simply to open your reserve while your risers are still attached.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[goose491 0]

And bill said I was arguing semantics!

I didn't say you need to beat your RSL. I said you need to pull your handle no matter what.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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So again, reaffirming pilotdave's comment, if an RSL works every time (%100 reliable) then there would be no need to pull the reserve handle, because at %100 reliability, which is a farce of course, any time the risers left the container, the reserve would be activated. Only a total mal, where cutting away would not release the risers from the jumper, would requre a reserve pull under Dave's hypothesis.

Great so in your world we get rid of the reserve and replace it with an AAD.

Hey we can also get a main AAD so we can get rid of a pilot chute!

So you want to breed MORE dependant jumpers? There are several threads on here where dependant jumpers died. (Try Perris CYPRES set at home for one).

Jeeze.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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As I said, call it primary or secondary or whatever you want. The fact is that when the rig operates under normal working conditions, the RSL is what pulls the reserve pin.

I am gonna end this. I think your attitude is dangerous. People have died thinking like you. for your sake I hope your RSL never fails.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

Thanks for accusing me of telling people they don't need to pull their reserve handle after cutting away. I appreciate that.

Do you want me to go back and count the number of times I said the exact opposite of that in this thread alone? How about just my last post?

Dave

[goose491 0]

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I am gonna end this. I think your attitude is dangerous. People have died thinking like you. for your sake I hope your RSL never fails.

And though I'm not sure I have enough experience to. I'm going to second that. lol

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 7]

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This is one of those silly sematic arguments. "Primary" means either "first" or "main." The RSL does pull the pin before you can, 99% of the time, so if you choose one definition it's the primary means

And is these silly semantics that lead new jumpers to pull the cutaway and think the reserve will fire when they have a total.

"The RSL is the PRIMARY"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Dude, your advice to experience ratio is getting VERY high. Nothing wrong with chatting about safety stuff, but with more experience you will have a better base from which to consider safety issues.

You say this and yet you defend Pilotdaves stance on RSL's

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

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I am gonna end this. I think your attitude is dangerous. People have died thinking like you. for your sake I hope your RSL never fails.

And people have died thinking "I don't need any backup devices. My left hand is my AAD." Well, they were probably actually thinking more like "damn I wish I had an AAD right about now."

I'm not sure what you mean by my attitude anyway. What exactly is my attitude? If you saw me practice my emergency procedures or if you saw me teach somebody else emergency procedures, it would look just the same no matter what my "attitude" was. If I was experiencing a malfunction, do you really think my RSL would even come to mind? I'd be lucky to remember my name. Procedures better take over automatically at that point.

Saying that my RSL is most likely going to pull my reserve pin after a cutaway is a fact, it's not attitude or opinion. It's the way the gear works. It's not a part of the emergency procedures though.

I have used rigs without an RSL. Doesn't change anything procedurally, but it DOES change the inner workings of the rig. That's the beauty of an RSL... it's totally transparent to the user. Nothing new to learn.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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but don't hear about the hundreds of RSL saves.

How many of those are really saves? How many of those would the jumper be dead had theynot had an RSL?

How many people have had a problem with their reserve because of an unstable RSL-activated reserve deployment?

Again, out of 100 RSL-deployed reserves, how many were saves?

Derek

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I personally know what it is like to kick linetwists out of a reserve due to an unstable reserve activation but the end result was landing my reserve safely rather that landing the spinning piece of crap that was above my head.

I personally know what it feels like to have a reserve pilotchute bridle wrap around me due to deploying (via ripcord) the reserve too_soon_and_unstable after a spinning mal. Not a good feeling.

I also know what it is like to be back in freefall, and being (temporarily) unable to locate my reserve ripcord handle. Also not a good feeling. (I stopped using two hands on each handle reserve procedures after that.)

There are no easy answers when it comes to RSLs. In some situations, it can be quite beneficial. In some situations, it can make things go from bad to worse. Ignoring either possibility does no one any favors.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Right. Some couldn't. Rick Horn couldn't find his due to harness distortion. Jeff (student of mine) couldn't find his handle because he had pulled it out of its pocket, then let it go to "help" pull the cutaway handle. They likely would have died (or at least had very low reserve openings) if not for their RSL.

Maybe, but probably not. Rick Horn would have found his reserve handle no problem after he cut away and the harness was un-loaded. The floating reserve ripcord could have been found very quickly also. It isn't so easy to determine a true RSL save because the jumper isn't given the chance to save themselves.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If I was experiencing a malfunction, do you really think my RSL would even come to mind? I'd be lucky to remember my name. Procedures better take over automatically at that point.

Saying that my RSL is most likely going to pull my reserve pin after a cutaway is a fact, it's not attitude or opinion. It's the way the gear works. It's not a part of the emergency procedures though.

I understand what you are saying, and from a purely logical perspective you are 100% correct. The problem is the human mind. Like you said, "I'd be lucky to remember my name. Procedures better take over automatically at that point.". In your mind, you are pre-set that the RSL will fire the reserve. You aren't going to be thinking during a mal, just going by what you have trained for. After releasing the main, you are in the mind set that the RSL will activate your reserve, if it doesn't, then things are not going as they should. This can cause panic, which makes it even harder to think, which can prevent you from pulling the reserve handle. It is all mind set.

Derek

[billvon 2,400]

> Rick Horn would have found his reserve handle no problem after he
> cut away and the harness was un-loaded.

He might have. He might not have in the 10 seconds of time he had left.

>The floating reserve ripcord could have been found very quickly also.

When we got to him, his reserve handle was through his harness under his armpit. You really think a student is going to think of looking for it there? Afterwards he said he looked for it for about 15 seconds frantically before he realized that his reserve was open. I have no doubt that the RSL saved his life.

[pilotdave 0]

I've never met or talked to anyone that failed to pull their reserve handle after cutting away and ended up having a cypres fire or worse. I don't know what their emergency procedures were or how recently they practiced them or what they considered to be "primary" or "backup."

All I know is for some reason they freaked out. They found themselves in freefall and couldn't figure out how to stop the ride.

Did they understand how their gear works and just forget? Did they think an RSL is the same as an SOS system? Were they crazy people? Did they have ANYTHING in common?

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I hope I'm different from them though. I hope that I don't need to pretend I don't know how my gear works in order to survive, cause I can't do that.

Dave

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I hear what your saying, but the bottom line is that on an RSL equipped rig, the RSL (when it works, and it works most of the time) is the primary pin puller, and the reserve handle becomes a secondary redundant mechanism.

I disagree. The RSL, as designed, works conditionally, ONLY when the main is out. The reserve ripcord handle, as designed, will activate the reserve deployment in all situations. I would not consider a system that has more limited operating parameters as the primary system. The ripcord is the primary system; the RSL is redundant.

For Great Deals on Gear

[LawnDart21 0]

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Great so in your world we get rid of the reserve and replace it with an AAD.

The two points I thought was making are 1) that if (and it is only an "if") the RSL works correctly, there is nothing left for the reserve handle to pull, as "beating the RSL" is essentially an out of sequence reserve deployment, because the RSL is designed to pull the reserve as the break away occurs, or a second or so there after. And 2) these additional layers of "safety devices" are only given a job to do when the jumper fails to do thier job.

I personally don't believe in RSLs. Never jumped with one as a licensed skydiver, and never intend to. As for AADs, I jump with an AAD because it is required at my DZ for working with students.

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So you want to breed MORE dependant jumpers?

Not at all. Any comment that I have made about RSLs was either related to the physical functionality of the device, and that these safety devices (AADs & RSLs) are only factors in a skydive as a result of a skydiver failing to do thier job (AADs) or perceiving there is a chance that they may not do thier job (installing an RSL).

I mean what is the answer to the question: "Why do you want an RSL on your rig?" mY guess is the answer is "In case I cannot find/pull reserve handle in an emergency". That to me is a jumper's perceived notion that they may fail to pull thier reserve handle in an emergency situation.

I may not have gotten my point across well in my last post, so I'll try it again worded differently; that in the event that a RSL is connected and a cutaway occurs from a partial malfunction, that there will be no pin left to pull with the reserve handle. The RSL will pull the pin before the jumper does with the reserve handle. That doesnt mean I think people with RSLs should not include reserve pulls in their EPs, simply that a correctly functioning RSL will pull the pin first.

If you want to read that as I am preaching device dependance, then so be it. I don't think I am, but I've been wrong before.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[goose491 0]

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When we got to him, his reserve handle was through his harness under his armpit. You really think a student is going to think of looking for it there?

Well, he could start with the cable, at the housing, and go from there... But no, I wouldn't expect a student to have the presence of mind required during a malfunction. The RSL is compulsory for students.

An experienced jumper however, especially one who had already experienced a malfunction during which he/she pulled both handles, would... And would likely find it.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!