goose491 0 #51 November 16, 2005 QuoteRon has come up with handful of cases over the last 20 years where one (rsl) may have contributed. The flipside is that I can show 3 examples no-pull/low-pull fatalities this year where an RSL almost certainly would have worked properly, and saved a life. An unstoppable force vs. unmovable object. Of course, the flaw in your comparing these two little factoids is that the existence of one negates the other. There are many more experienced jumpers who do not use the RSL then there are who do. Therefore, you see fatalities that "could have been avoided with an RSL". However, if everyone jumped with an RSL, who's to say that we wouldn't see many more a case in Ron's list of incidents where RSLs were a contributing factor? Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #52 November 16, 2005 QuoteHowever, if everyone jumped with an RSL, who's to say that we wouldn't see many more a case in Ron's list of incidents where RSLs were a contributing factor? The numbers of student (including tandems) and novice jumpers (and total jumps) out there FAR exceeds the number of advanced skydivers at almost all DZ's. By far, most skydivers quit the sport long before then become "experts". There is a tremendous number of RSL's in the field for the last 20 years, and by far most of them have worked flawlessly. The stats are valid. Especially with students and novice jumpers, RSL's are far more helpful than harmful. Flying Camera? A good exception. Flying a tiny eliptical? There's an interesting discussion. Got 34 jumps? You'd be a fool not to have one. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #53 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe numbers of student (including tandems) and novice jumpers (and total jumps) out there FAR exceeds the number of advanced skydivers at almost all DZ's. So what? My sentence was: QuoteThere are many more experienced jumpers who do not use the RSL then there are who do. Different animals. Experienced jumpers are doing different skydives then the students and tandems. They are using different gear then students and tandems. We are discussing the use of RSLs for those that have the choice. Students don't but they are doing much simpler skydives, pulling higher with much more docile gear... etc... It seems we talk apples until someone makes a point... then it's on to oranges to counter it. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #54 November 16, 2005 QuoteExperienced jumpers are doing different skydives then the students and tandems. They are using different gear then students and tandems. We are discussing the use of RSLs for those that have the choice. Students don't but they are doing much simpler skydives, pulling higher with much more docile gear... etc.. What is it about Student RSL's that make them any different than "expert" ones? Don't take the cop out of "different gear, doesn't apply", tell me WHY it doesn't apply. Most modern student gear is functionaly identical to expert gear, with the exception of canopy size. I grant that the RSL discussion gets a bit more interesting with small elipticals, so tell me (other than that), what is it that makes student gear so different? Now tell me why these differences make the RSL unsafe. Student RSL's presumably get far more use than expert ones. Given that the equipment is functionally the same, if there was a problem it would show up with student gear first. Expert skydivers deploy lower, meaning they execute their reserve procedures lower. This means an RSL is even more important, as they're more likely to need it. 20 years of history has shown conclusively that there is not a big risk of RSLs for most of the skydiving population. Contrary, fatality statistics indicate there is a significant risk to jumping without one. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #55 November 16, 2005 QuoteI find it interesting that you don't use the RSL, but still recommend it. I recomend it till you have sucessfully done a real life emergency procedure, then you make up your own mind. QuoteI have heard that it saves more lives than it kills. A safety device that can kill you is not a good saftey device in my mind. All of those saved by an RSL screwed up. All of those killed didn't have a choice."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #56 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. Because the RSL wouldn't help me (the way I want it to) in those situations, then I'm better off without it. You don't know how an RSL works then. A low collision is one of the few times I would WANT an RSL. Also you have very little chance of an entaglement up high. No offense, I don't like RSL's one little bit, but your logic is bad here. You worry about collisions? Then look around a bunch under canopy. Two out? Maintain your gear."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #57 November 16, 2005 QuoteIf you have an RSL, your cutaway cables should be trimmed where the non-RSL riser releases first. Read your maunal. The Javelin says they are the SAME length after the loop. 5 1/2 inches. Quote"After the cables have been installed in the housings of your Javelin harness/container there should be 5 1/2” of excess cable on the user’s left-hand and right-hand side. These measurements are based on extensive testing and should not be altered in anyway to change the correct operation of the RSL." Page 33 I don't have a Vector Manual handy...but last time I checked it said close to the same thing. Anyway please don't give advice without backing up your reference. In this case you just gave advice directly opposite what the Javelin Manual says."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #58 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe numbers of student (including tandems) and novice jumpers (and total jumps) out there FAR exceeds the number of advanced skydivers at almost all DZ's. Ah no. Almost every student had an "expert" with them on every jump...Most common level of AFF has two, and every Tandem has one. Since most "Student" jumps are AFF early levels (with two "experts") and tandems your statement is wrong. QuoteStudent RSL's presumably get far more use than expert ones. Given that the equipment is functionally the same, if there was a problem it would show up with student gear first. So, you say students have more mals than experts? Your logic that there are more students than "experts" is already shot. Esp. when you consider NUMBER of jumps made. A student may make one of two a day, but for every student there is atleast one "Expert" with them. I myself helped 7 people last weekend do their first jump....But that means I did 7 that one day. So how do you come to that conclusion? QuoteGot 34 jumps? You'd be a fool not to have one. On this we agree....And remember I don't like RSL's, so thats saying something."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #59 November 16, 2005 QuoteWhat is it about Student RSL's that make them any different than "expert" ones? The jumpers and the jumps of course. Who do we see more of in incident and fatalitie lists? Why? There are a great number of reasons why there are more experienced jumpers getting hurt or killed in our sport then students and tandems... are you looking for me to explain those to you? QuoteDon't take the cop out of "different gear, doesn't apply", tell me WHY it doesn't apply. ...perhaps you are! Does it not suffice to say that of all the fatalities, more of them are experienced jumpers then are students and tandems? So my point was that more experienced jumpers do not use RSLs then do and that if everyone jumped one, there may very well be a greater number of incidents and fatalites where the RSL was a contributing factor. This point is not counterable with: "Yeah well, there are more students then experienced jumpers at a given DZ." because: -Students make less jumps then the experienced, therefore (in theory) experiencing less chops -Students have a high burn out rate, therefore experience less chops -Students jump larger, more docile canopies, experiencing less violent malfunctions and a lessor chance of the RSL deploying their reserve in an unforgivingly unstable body position. -Students are leaving later and pulling higher. They therefore have lower exposure to the possibility of a canopy collision or entanglement. .... etc.... etc.... My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #60 November 16, 2005 True. My statement that there are more student jumps than experts was false. Still, there are more than enough RSL jumps made to indicate if there's a fundamental safety problem. There's more than enough jumps done each year to show a pattern of issues, if such issues existed. It's dificult to show conclusively many fatalities caused by the RSL, despite them being used by a large number of jumpers. Contrary, there are an alarming number of people going in who would've been saved by one. The suposition that the reason there's not more RSL fatalities is because people dont' use them, well - that might be true, but it misses the point. RSL's reduce the risk more than they add to it, for most skydivers. For me, that really is the end of story. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #61 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe suposition that the reason there's not more RSL fatalities is because people dont' use them, well - that might be true, but it misses the point. No, it very much IS the point. RSL or no RSL, students don't go in as compared to experienced jumpers. Students don't experience nearly as many "hairy situations" as the experienced... again, for a number of reasons not including the RSL. But the vast majority of experienced jumpers do not use the RSL whereas all the students do. You are comparing apples to oranges when you use the above to say: "RSLs save more then they kill, period." My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #62 November 16, 2005 Quote The jumpers and the jumps of course. Again, a non-answer. What about the jumpers and the jumps make an RSL unsafe? QuoteDoes it not suffice to say that of all the fatalities, more of them are experienced jumpers then are students and tandems? Interesting. Of all the fatalities, many of them are experienced jumpers and don't have RSL's. Odd. Interesting that the safest aspects of our sport are students and tandems, both which require RSLs. Quote So my point was that more experienced jumpers do not use RSLs then do and that if everyone jumped one, there may very well be a greater number of incidents and fatalites where the RSL was a contributing factor. I've never said everyone should jump one. In fact, I don't jump one. All I've said is that for the majority of jumpers, having one improves safety. It's very true that if more people jumped one, there would probably be more issues with them. The flipside is that if more people jumped one, there would be a much larger decrease in no-pull/low-pull fatalities. The stats here are solid. Quote -Students make less jumps then the experienced, therefore (in theory) experiencing less chops Most DZ's have busy student programs. There are more than enough student jumps to indicate a pattern. There is no such pattern. From my observation, even good modern student gear seems to have a higher malfunction rate than everyone except those jumping small elipticals. This often includes students who misdiagnose problems - for example we had a student chop a perfectly good main because "the slider wouldn't go up", and we had a novice chop one because an unstowed brake put his main in a slow turn. The suposition that students have fewer malfunctions than experts is by my observation, false. Quote -Students have a high burn out rate, therefore experience less chops There are more than enough students doing more than enought jumps to indicate a pattern. There is no such patttern. Quote -Students jump larger, more docile canopies, experiencing less violent malfunctions and a lessor chance of the RSL deploying their reserve in an unforgivingly unstable body position. Again, I allow that the discussion does become more interesting when someone is jumping a small eliptical. Most experienced jumpers are not jumping small elipticals. The most common main being sold today is a moderately loaded Saber2, which is very compatible with RSLs. The suposition that somebody needs to "get stable" from after cuttaway from a moderately loaded Saber2-style canopy is demonstrably false. Quote -Students are leaving later and pulling higher. They therefore have lower exposure to the possibility of a canopy collision or entanglement. Canopy colisions and entanglements are very rare outside of CRW circles. Strangely, I can point to a few recent incidents of student and novice entaglements. More importantly, for advanced skydivers these are easy to avoid and most skydivers go through a long career withtout seeing any, outside of CRW. Secondly, this is precisely why RSL's have a quick-release. If a skydiver thinks he's adept enough to properly perform his emergency procedures without an RSL, he's also adept enough to disconnect his RSL in the few cases that it's required. There are more than enough RSL's in use to show a pattern of malfunctions. Such a pattern does not exist. I'm done here. I need to get back to work. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 November 16, 2005 QuoteRead your maunal. The Javelin says they are the SAME length after the loop. 5 1/2 inches. Not according to the DESIGNER of the 3-ring system: Quote (*From the Vector manual, pg 67*) A) Rigs without RSL: each yellow cable should extend about 6 inches (15.2 cm) past the housing ending. B) Rigs with RSL: the right (RSL) side yellow cable should extend 7½ inches (19.1 cm) past the housing ending. The left (non RSL) side should extend 5½ inches (14 cm) past the housing ending. Also, see Mr. Booth's post on the subject...it appears that the system was designed for the non-RSL riser to depart first...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #64 November 16, 2005 You have twisted my posts, replying only to pieces and tidbits which suit you. It was simple: As it stands, there is a small number of fatalities to which the RSL was a contributing factor. This is downplayed by those that push the device, by the argument that there are a great many more saves attributed to it. I present that because a great many more experienced jumpers do not use RSLs then do, and because "incidents" and "hairy situations" tend to find experienced jumpers more often the students and tandems, that the comparison is not valid. That if everyone jumped one, then we may very well be able to see a greater number of incidents/fatalities where it was a contributing factor. p.s. I'm not about arguing Pro vs. Con of the RSL. Been there, done that... tired of being judged. But what I say above is valid and should be considered. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #65 November 16, 2005 Quote Not according to the DESIGNER of the 3-ring system: If you don't jump a Vector, I'd STRONGLY recomend you follow the instructions in the manual for your container and not somebody elses. There are MAJOR, but largely invisible differences to the design of cuttaway systems accross manufacturers. One example would be something called 'compressible housings'. Whether your gear has Compressible Housings or not radically affects how you need to trim your cables. The Vector manual is completely irrelevant if you jump a Mirage, Javelin, Icon, Racer, etc. You're new to the sport. Your job is to learn. Not teach. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #66 November 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe RSL just isn't for me. I worry too much about entanglements up high and the low collisions. Because the RSL wouldn't help me (the way I want it to) in those situations, then I'm better off without it. You don't know how an RSL works then. A low collision is one of the few times I would WANT an RSL. Also you have very little chance of an entaglement up high. No offense, I don't like RSL's one little bit, but your logic is bad here. You worry about collisions? Then look around a bunch under canopy. Two out? Maintain your gear. Err...did you read my posts? Its pretty obvious that I would want an RSL for anything that is low-altitude. But higher up, I would want a choice for cutting away without the reserve being deployed immediately. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #67 November 16, 2005 Quote QuoteGot 34 jumps? You'd be a fool not to have one. On this we agree....And remember I don't like RSL's, so thats saying something. It makes sense to me that nobody wants to be the one who tells an inexperienced jumper not to use an RSL. I put more trust in myself than the RSL. I am assuming I will always pull my reserve after a cutaway (who wouldn't?). Howver, in the case of a canopy collision upon deployment, I wouldn't want my reserve out just yet. Again, I am putting more trust in myself than the RSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #68 November 16, 2005 > I put more trust in myself than the RSL. I put more trust in myself than in an AAD or a reserve; I think most skydivers do. Doesn't mean that AAD's/reserves are bad ideas. Keep in mind that there are people out there, very competent people with a lot more experience than you (or I) who went in because they didn't open their reserve after a cutaway. Perhaps they didn't have one in case they cut away high and did not want their reserve to open right away. Or perhaps they were confident they would always open their reserve. But they didn't. History has shown that you are a LOT more likely to die from a late reserve pull than from a high altitude entanglement; trust doesn't really enter into it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #69 November 16, 2005 Quote It's dificult to show conclusively many fatalities caused by the RSL, despite them being used by a large number of jumpers. Contrary, there are an alarming number of people going in who would've been saved by one. I'm not so sure that all of those skydivers who cut away too low would have been saved by an RSL. If you are going to be cutting away so low, you still have to give the RSL enough time to deploy the reserve. It is nice to have if you are in the situation where you wouldn't be able to cut away and deploy the reserve fast enough, but are still high enough above the ground that you may live. That time period (I'm assuming) may not be any longer than 2-3 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #70 November 16, 2005 >I'm not so sure that all of those skydivers who cut away too low would have been saved by an RSL. I was at Rantoul this summer where two jumpers would have been saved by their RSL's. One tore his shirt apart trying to get to his reserve handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #71 November 16, 2005 Quote If a skydiver thinks he's adept enough to properly perform his emergency procedures without an RSL, he's also adept enough to disconnect his RSL in the few cases that it's required. I think that I'm adept enough to pull another large handle when required, but not adept enough to find that little RSL cable and disconnect it without accidently pulling on it, while having a malfunction that requires a disconnect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #72 November 16, 2005 QuoteI'm not so sure that all of those skydivers who cut away too low would have been saved by an RSL. Well, I can't argue with that, other than to say that people with a lot more knowledge than either you or I have concluded the contrary in a great many cases. It seems to me that at this point in your skydiving career, it would behoove you to listen to advice of people who know more than you, but I digress. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #73 November 16, 2005 Quote>I'm not so sure that all of those skydivers who cut away too low would have been saved by an RSL. I was at Rantoul this summer where two jumpers would have been saved by their RSL's. One tore his shirt apart trying to get to his reserve handle. I'm not downplaying the fact that an RSL could have saved him... but there's always the "also"s. -This jumper would also have been saved had he been using the one hand on each method of EP (rather then the two hand on each, requiring you locate and grasp the reserve handle after you chop) -This jumper could also have had his RSL fire a malfunctioned reserve due to poor body position after the chop. The "also"s are just as heavy IMHO. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #74 November 16, 2005 Quote I present that because a great many more experienced jumpers do not use RSLs then do, and because "incidents" and "hairy situations" tend to find experienced jumpers more often the students and tandems, that the comparison is not valid. I would have to agree with you on that. I mean, I can't see myself getting severe line twists with a wing loading of .96 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #75 November 16, 2005 QuoteThis jumper could also have had his RSL fire a malfunctioned reserve due to poor body position after the chop. Ummm, aren't you talking about someone that died? Could a reserve malfunction have made him die more? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
