Can an atheist get into Heaven

[gowlerk 1,914]

God is an invention of Mankind. Every person has a right to their own interpretation of the God myth. And every single person does. No two people, even members of strong religions, think of God in the exact same way. We are all individual snowflakes.

God stands as an icon for all the things we can never know. How else could we all cope with our mortality? You can deny God or believe in God. It makes no difference whatsoever to any of the mysteries we face. None of us can ever know.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wmw999 2,122]

Nicely put.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RonD1120 58]

Tagging on here:

The Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell. [See Calvin]
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

One of several, maybe the most declared, Christian creeds.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 4]

jakee

What is holiness, and why does it matter?

God is the standard of holiness, righeousness, goodness. It matters because he says it does.

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He chose to make us in the full knowledge that we would all break those laws. A perfectly just being would take personal responsibility for the outcome, not pass the buck onto those he put into a no-win situation.

Firstly, how do you presume to know what a perfectly just being should or should not do and the reasons behind it all?
Secondly, you are responsible for your own thoughts/actions.

[ryoder 1,384]

SethInMI

***
So I voted boobies.

The real point of this thread is so someone could post Monty Python's Christmas in Heaven. It's got a stairway, it's got Heaven, it's got boobies, it's Christmas, every single day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70h9cyRTxXs

I always imagined heaven like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0A5vzGMQr8

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,400]

>God is the standard of holiness, righeousness, goodness. It matters because he says it does.

That's somewhat circular.

>Firstly, how do you presume to know what a perfectly just being should or should not
>do and the reasons behind it all?

That's an excellent question. I would point out that anyone who believes in a specific instantiation of God makes that presumption.

[jakee 1,255]

jaybird18c

***What is holiness, and why does it matter?

God is the standard of holiness,

But what is holiness? This isn’t a trick question, I genuinely don’t know what it is you really mean by it.

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It matters because he says it does.

Oh now that’s disappointing. When you posed the question “why should anyone be allowed to live with god when he’s holy and we’re not” it sounded like you had a well reasoned, persuasive argument to follow. Now it turns out that the only argument either way that you’ll contemplate is ‘because god said so’. Massive letdown.

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Firstly, how do you presume to know what a perfectly just being should or should not do and the reasons behind it all?

Because perfect justice should bear some resemblance to normal justice.

Heck, just consider your argument here - if God made both of us without the ability to even recognise ‘perfect justice’ when it’s laid out in front of us then how on earth is it our fault that we’re not perfectly just? A defective toy is the toymaker’s responsibility.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nigel99 144]

It’s a funny question. I wonder if Sasquatch can get in to heaven as well?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Justincblount 4]

Presuming heaven exists? Whose heaven? There have been millions of different ideas of heaven, which one are we to presume? The Christian one? There have probably been hundreds of thousands of different ideas of Christian heaven. According to New Testament text, atheists don't get to go to any of them. The only way you get in is if god forgives your sins, the only way he's allowed to do that is if you accept his loophole to not be accountable for your own actions. And according to him, everyone deserves to be tortured forever in some sort of sadistic concentration camp. And apparently being an atheist is the worst sin you can commit, so it's way worse than murder, which is equal to stealing, which is infinitely worse than molesting children, since the bible has no opinion on that.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

nigel99

It’s a funny question. I wonder if Sasquatch can get in to heaven as well?

Well, AFAIK, there's more evidence for the existence of Sasquatch (Bigfoot) than there for the existence of Heaven.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[BIGUN 1,053]

Justincblount

Presuming heaven exists? Whose heaven? There have been millions of different ideas of heaven, which one are we to presume? The Christian one? There have probably been hundreds of thousands of different ideas of Christian heaven. According to New Testament text, atheists don't get to go to any of them. The only way you get in is if god forgives your sins, the only way he's allowed to do that is if you accept his loophole to not be accountable for your own actions. And according to him, everyone deserves to be tortured forever in some sort of sadistic concentration camp. And apparently being an atheist is the worst sin you can commit, so it's way worse than murder, which is equal to stealing, which is infinitely worse than molesting children, since the bible has no opinion on that.

You might want to re-review Revelation 21:8

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[gowlerk 1,914]

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You might want to re-review Revelation 21:8

Are there lawyers in heaven? That statute is pretty vague. I think a good mouthpiece could get me acquitted.


Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see 'em again till the fourth of July

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[BIGUN 1,053]

OK. That cracked me up. Thanks.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DJL 232]

I seriously doubt "God" is going to judge me and is not so vain that I fail a test for entry for not taking a literal translation of very vaguely written 2-3000 year old texts that have been corrupted and rewritten multiple times to achieve the ends of power hungry religious leaders.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jaybird18c 4]

jakee

But what is holiness? This isn’t a trick question, I genuinely don’t know what it is you really mean by it.

Biblically, in one sense, God's people are considered holy in that they have been "set apart" for God's purposes. Not that they're holy in and of themselves but that they are seen in that way by God because of their faith. In a greater sense, holiness can be seen as perfect adherence to God's Law. Impossible for us. However, demonstrated in the culmination of God's attributes and character being the standard for righteousness.

[Quote] Because perfect justice should bear some resemblance to normal justice.

Heck, just consider your argument here - if God made both of us without the ability to even recognise ‘perfect justice’ when it’s laid out in front of us then how on earth is it our fault that we’re not perfectly just? A defective toy is the toymaker’s responsibility

You WERE made with a sense of justice (right and wrong). Otherwise, you wouldn't have a conscience. When you lie, steal, etc., you know it's wrong and do it anyway. God didn't "make you do it." That's your responsibility.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jaybird18c

... In a greater sense, holiness can be seen as perfect adherence to God's Law. Impossible for us. However, demonstrated in the culmination of God's attributes and character being the standard for righteousness.

So turning someone into a pillar of salt for simply looking back at His destruction is "righteous" and "just"?

Slaughtering every first born child?

Putting Job through all of his trials just to prove something to Satan? (and how is it that an "all powerful God" can't simply destroy Satan? Is this some sort of comic book?)

That's just 3. The Bible is full of them. And even more in the 'real world' since then.

You mentioned above the concept of being punished for denying God. How about the idea that someone simply cannot believe in this garbage?
Belief that is so deep that objective observation is dismissed because it disagrees with the "holy writings"?
A God who "so loved the world that he gave his only son", yet apparently didn't love his son enough to keep him from dying a horrific, brutal painful death?
The whole "live the way I say. If you do you get an eternity of 'heaven' and if you don't you get to burn in hell." What, is he Santa Claus? Presents for the good, coal for the bad (does Santa get the coal from the fires of hell by any chance?).
A God who seems to be so punitive that anyone who doesn't 'accept Jesus' goes to hell, but the fakes, frauds and charlatans who "fleece His flock" get to live lives of comfort and luxury?

I get it that it is ingrained so deeply into our culture and society that it is heresy to examine it closely and to question it, but if it wasn't, this entire fairy tale would be dismissed out of hand.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,255]

jaybird18c

In a greater sense, holiness can be seen as perfect adherence to God's Law. Impossible for us.

Well two things then; you said we shouldn’t be allowed to live with god because he’s holy and we’re not. Now you say holiness is perfect adherence to the law. Well, I’ve never perfectly adhered to my national laws, and neither have you. Yet we’re both allowed to live in society, because to be expelled just for any of the petty crap I’ve done would be unconscionably harsh. Why is our society fairer and more forgiving than god?

Second, you said I have to take responsibility for not getting it right, now you say it’s impossible to get it right. So again, isn’t it gods responsibility for setting an impossible standard?

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You WERE made with a sense of justice (right and wrong). Otherwise, you wouldn't have a conscience.

Yes, that’s exactly my point.

You asked how I could have any idea what a perfectly just being should do.... you’ve answered your own question. What you just said, that’s how I know. So do you want to revisit your earlier reply?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

***Well two things then; you said we shouldn’t be allowed to live with god because he’s holy and we’re not. Now you say holiness is perfect adherence to the law. Well, I’ve never perfectly adhered to my national laws, and neither have you. Yet we’re both allowed to live in society, because to be expelled just for any of the petty crap I’ve done would be unconscionably harsh. Why is our society fairer and more forgiving than god?

Jesus said that we must be perfect like God (Matthew 5:48) in order to be in his presence when we die.
You inferred correctly that this is impossible for us. Yet that is the standard for righteousness.
It is the greatest dilemma in Christianity. How can God remain perfectly just and at the same time justify lawbreakers? God describes justifying the guilty without punishment as an abomination (Proverbs 17:15). Yet that is exactly what God claims to do. God in fact did set an impossible standard. However, he did not leave it at that. He stepped into history and fulfilled the requirement of the law himself. He also paid the penalty in full which was due us (Romans 3:23-26). Through faith, our guilt is imputed to him and his righteousness to us.

[gowlerk 1,914]

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Jesus said that we must be perfect like God (Matthew 5:48) in order to be in his presence when we die.
You inferred correctly that this is impossible for us. Yet that is the standard for righteousness.
It is the greatest dilemma in Christianity. How can God remain perfectly just and at the same time justify lawbreakers? God describes justifying the guilty without punishment as an abomination (Proverbs 17:15). Yet that is exactly what God claims to do. God in fact did set an impossible standard. However, he did not leave it at that. He stepped into history and fulfilled the requirement of the law himself. He also paid the penalty in full which was due us (Romans 3:23-26). Through faith, our guilt is imputed to him and his righteousness to us.

This is where priests and those who would tell others how to get right with "God" start to be even worse than lawyers. It is commonly held that prostitution is the world's oldest profession. I strongly disagree. Shaman or priest is the world first and oldest con. Telling other people what the creator is and what She wants and convincing them that there is only one truth.

It is fine to fool yourself anyway you want. Spreading the word and pretending you know it is the truth is not. When it comes to God all words from man are equally lies. All books are written by man.

A better question about atheists and heaven is, " does an atheist want to go to heaven?"

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SethInMI 145]

jaybird18c

Jesus said...

You are saying exactly what I was taught as a kid, and firmly believed up through college. But once you set it aside for awhile and take another look, it does not make enough sense. I suspect many more leave the church as adults as come to it, simply because the hurdle to believing the story requires well, a big leap of faith.

And the bible has some cover for these impossible conundrums, like I Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." Basically this is often taken to mean, "we know it does not make sense, but just go with it, we (the bible writers) know what we are talking about."

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[DJL 232]

SethInMI

***
Jesus said...

You are saying exactly what I was taught as a kid, and firmly believed up through college. But once you set it aside for awhile and take another look, it does not make enough sense. I suspect many more leave the church as adults as come to it, simply because the hurdle to believing the story requires well, a big leap of faith.

And the bible has some cover for these impossible conundrums, like I Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." Basically this is often taken to mean, "we know it does not make sense, but just go with it, we (the bible writers) know what we are talking about."

Hard to give Jesus credit for saying what the rules are for getting into heaven when the Christian Bible rewrote the Hebrew text for the Messianic Prophesies:

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jakee 1,255]

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Jesus said that we must be perfect like God (Matthew 5:48) in order to be in his presence when we die.

But why? See, this is again where I thought you were going to have a reasoned argument but you're just coming back to 'because god says so'.

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He also paid the penalty in full which was due us

What was the penalty?

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Through faith, our guilt is imputed to him and his righteousness to us.

Why through faith? What does faith have to do with it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

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What was the penalty?
What "is" the penalty?
Death (Romans 6:23)

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Why through faith? What does faith have to do with it?

Because, as was said, it is impossible for us to settle our own debt. However, Jesus stood in the "law place" of those who repent and place their faith in him. Faith implies obedience, surrender, and hence, freedom to "not sin." Without that, you are still an enemy of God through your thoughts/actions (Colossians 1:21).

• Quote

[jakee 1,255]

jaybird18c

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What was the penalty?

What "is" the penalty?
Death (Romans 6:23)

Ummm.... but when it comes time for me to go to heaven or not.... I'll be dead. Everyone dies.

Are there different kinds of death?

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***Why through faith? What does faith have to do with it?

Because, as was said, it is impossible for us to settle our own debt.
Not through death?

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However, Jesus stood in the "law place" of those who repent and place their faith in him.

Repentence is fine, I can get with 'you need to feel guilty about doing bad stuff' as a requirement. But why faith?

I just don't see any reason to think any of this stuff is real. What's wrong with that? If I die and find out any of it is real, then I'll change my mind.

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Faith implies obedience, surrender, and hence, freedom to "not sin."

Freedom to 'not sin'? What does that mean?

People who have faith still sin, right? You already said it's impossible for them not to. So what is the meaning of having the freedom to do something it's impossible to do? Why don't I have the freedom to not sin without faith?

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Without that, you are still an enemy of God through your thoughts/actions (Colossians 1:21).

Why? I do the same stuff as people who do have faith, so actions have nothing to do with it. Why does not being a sycophant make me an enemy?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[gowlerk 1,914]

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What "is" the penalty?
Death (Romans 6:23)

Wait just one cotton picking moment there. Now I'm confused. First I hear that if I don't conform I will suffer in Hell for eternity. Now you are telling me that death is the penalty. What is it really? Execution or hard time forever? You religious people just can't seem to get your story straight.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.