Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jaybird18c 4]

billvon

>What is an "agnostic Christian" anyway?

Someone who believes in the basic teachings of Christianity but is unsure about the supernatural part of the religion.

An agnostic is unsure about the existence of God. Do you not think that the existence of God is a basic teaching of Christianity. That's like saying I believe in skydiving but not so much about the whole falling out of an airplane thing.

[billvon 2,400]

>That's like saying I believe in skydiving but not so much about the whole falling out of
>an airplane thing.

You might learn skydiving, and think that most of the SIM is a pretty good idea, but the airplane thing is not for you - and decide to only jump balloons. You'd still be a skydiver; just not like most other skydivers. Or a BASE jumper, if you had an issue with all aircraft. You might even still wingsuit or freefly, and be good at tracking, relative flying and accuracy (all skydiver skills.)

There are a lot of people out there who believe what Christianity teaches, but don't believe in all the supernatural stuff.

[jakee 1,255]

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What is amazing is that he humbled himself, becoming a man, on our behalf.

Amazing, but not relevant to what you were saying earlier where the punishment was the only important thing. A little focus would make this easier to follow.

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The reason Jesus' death was sufficient was because his life was worth more than all of us in the history of mankind combined.

But Bigun says he isn't dead (spiritually dead). Bigun says he is alive at the right side of God. Which of you is correct?

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He took the ultimate punishment for us by suffering the wrath of God himself which was aimed at us who deserved it.

Suffering the wrath of God for (according to Bigun) 3 days. That's not the ultimate punishment, is it? I thought the ultimate punishment was eternity.

Why can God change his mind after he starts punishing Jesus but he can't change his mind after he starts punishing us?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,122]

This agnostic is uncertain about the existence/nature of God. In other words, I firmly believe that the Bible is strongly human, and therefore not a reliable source of details, but full of wisdom and inspiration. Why Christian? Because I was raised that way. I doubt, but I find comfort there. And a lot of ideas about how to live a good life. And, ya know, if this life doesn’t matter, why we’re we given it?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gowlerk 1,913]

As Ron would point out, the most basic teaching of Christianity is that your soul will be saved if you believe and embrace Christ. As far as I can tell the term "agnostic Christian" is a pure oxymoron.

I think a more accurate term would be "culturally Christian". And I believe there are lots of those who don't truly believe.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,913]

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And, ya know, if this life doesn’t matter, why we’re we given it?

It was passed down to us by our ancestors. It was not given, it was fought for. We are the descendants of the survivors who were smart enough, strong enough, and mean enough to win. Our only purpose is to pass it on.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jaybird18c 4]

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Amazing, but not relevant to what you were saying earlier where the punishment was the only important thing. A little focus would make this easier to follow.

I never said that punishment was the only important thing. Although, it should warrant concern. My point in all of this is God's solution to the sin problem resulting in hope.

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But Bigun says he isn't dead (spiritually dead). Bigun says he is alive at the right side of God. Which of you is correct?

Jesus is in fact currently alive and in a place of honor with God. He will return again to judge the world in righteousness.

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Suffering the wrath of God for (according to Bigun) 3 days. That's not the ultimate punishment, is it? I thought the ultimate punishment was eternity.

Jesus suffered the wrath of God in the exact measure which was required to satisfy the requirement. You are missing the unseen spiritual suffering which took place and only focusing on the physical crucifixion. Jesus did not sweat tears of blood because he was primarily worried about Roman soldiers or crucifixion.

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Why can God change his mind after he starts punishing Jesus but he can't change his mind after he starts punishing us?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[jakee 1,255]

jaybird18c

I never said that punishment was the only important thing. Although, it should warrant concern. My point in all of this is God's solution to the sin problem resulting in hope.

You said the punishment is the only important thing that has to happen as a result of sin.

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***But Bigun says he isn't dead (spiritually dead). Bigun says he is alive at the right side of God. Which of you is correct?

Jesus is in fact currently alive and in a place of honor with God. He will return again to judge the world in righteousness.
Right, so how did he suffer the punishment that was due to us? Jesus is not spiritually dead, therefore he did not spiritually die. In what sense did he serve as the recipient of the eternal punishment that will happen to us?

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Jesus suffered the wrath of God in the exact measure which was required to satisfy the requirement.

How does that work, then? If three days of spiritual death is enough to satisfy the requirement then why isn't that what will happen to me if I don't believe in god before I die?

How can you tell me that god is perfectly just if you're telling me that only 3 days of wrath is sufficient punishment for a life of sin, then the ensuing eternity of wrath is completely unnecessary?

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You are missing the unseen spiritual suffering which took place and only focusing on the physical crucifixion. Jesus did not sweat tears of blood because he was primarily worried about Roman soldiers or crucifixion.

I'm not focusing on the physical crucifiction. I didn't say anything about the physical crucifiction. It's patently obvious that the physical crucifiction couldn't possibly be a substitute for eternal punishment. Look, it's not my fault you chose to use such ambiguous terms to describe what you think is going on, but I was very clear that I was using 'death' to mean your term 'spiritual death' not 'death' death. Please try to pay attention.

Now, what unseen spiritual suffering did take place, and why was it enough to satisfy everyone's sin when each individual sinner will actually face far worse punishment?

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***Why can God change his mind after he starts punishing Jesus but he can't change his mind after he starts punishing us?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

It's really pretty simple.

I asked what would happen if I changed my mind after I died when it became clear that god really does exist.You said it was too late and I'd still be punished forever, god only makes that decision once. But with Jesus, god started punishing him, then stopped punishing him.

Why can't he do that with us?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>What is an "agnostic Christian" anyway?

Someone who believes in the basic teachings of Christianity but is unsure about the supernatural part of the religion.

According to Oswald Chambers, if Christianity is not a supernatural miracle than it is a sham.

I have experienced the former and therefore discount the latter.

We, Christians. can only share God's word and our testimonies. It is impossible to adequately debate the supernatural.

Many spiritual leaders teach how to live this life on earth. Christ showed us a path for eternal life, if we choose to take it.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DanG 1]

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Many spiritual leaders teach how to live this life on earth. Christ showed us a path for eternal life, if we choose to take it.

He also showed you a way to live life on Earth. It's that part of his teaching many seem to ignore. Cherry picking the parts you like and ignoring the parts you don't was not likely His intent.

- Dan G

[gowlerk 1,913]

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Jesus suffered the wrath of God in the exact measure which was required to satisfy the requirement.

Lawyer speak.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DJL 232]

jaybird18c

***It's as if they're trying to get people to adhere to laws by invoking religious fears in a era when centralized government was incapable of such things. Hmmmmm.........

It's not primarily about fear.
It's about hope.
Without God, you have no hope and you're going to die.

Actually I do have hope but I also understand how to interpret things written on paper and I've read the Bible several times and studied it thoroughly. It doesn't hold up and by all historical records Christ was not the Messiah. That doesn't mean his teachings and moral lessons are wrong just that he was not God's son. It doesn't even mean that if you die and see the Hebrew god sitting in the chair that he's going to send you to Hell, it means that none of you have any idea what you're talking about. The morality part is good but the rest of it is superstition. That feeling you have in your gut that you call faith is the same thing someone feels when they're told good news, like when a kid is told they're going to Disneyland. You think you're going because you've been told you're going so you feel good about going but it doesn't change the fact that you have no idea whether you're going. It's also OK that you don't know and don't want to know otherwise, enjoy your time on Earth and Be Excellent to Each Other.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jaybird18c

***It's as if they're trying to get people to adhere to laws by invoking religious fears in a era when centralized government was incapable of such things. Hmmmmm.........

It's not primarily about fear.
It's about hope.
Without God, you have no hope and you're going to die.

Well, that sounds a lot like "fear" to me.

Fear of death.

We all face it, we're mortal. As I've heard and said a lot of times:

"Nobody gets out of this one alive."

I've seen people come to that realization when they have a close call, or someone close to them has a close call or dies, particularly in skydiving.

Something along the lines of "I know I said I could die doing this, but I really didn't think it could happen to me."

So they start to think about the finality of death.Both their own and others. And the fear that accompanies that can be pretty overwhelming.

So some turn to religion, which offers the promise that they won't really die, and that they will be able to see the ones who have gone before after they die.

It's a nice, comfortable, happy belief.

That 'hope' is all about countering the fear.

With absolutely zero evidence that there's any truth to it. Just fear, desire and belief.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[RonD1120 58]

DJL

******It's as if they're trying to get people to adhere to laws by invoking religious fears in a era when centralized government was incapable of such things. Hmmmmm.........

It's not primarily about fear.
It's about hope.
Without God, you have no hope and you're going to die.

Actually I do have hope but I also understand how to interpret things written on paper and I've read the Bible several times and studied it thoroughly. It doesn't hold up and by all historical records Christ was not the Messiah. That doesn't mean his teachings and moral lessons are wrong just that he was not God's son. It doesn't even mean that if you die and see the Hebrew god sitting in the chair that he's going to send you to Hell, it means that none of you have any idea what you're talking about. The morality part is good but the rest of it is superstition. That feeling you have in your gut that you call faith is the same thing someone feels when they're told good news, like when a kid is told they're going to Disneyland. You think you're going because you've been told you're going so you feel good about going but it doesn't change the fact that you have no idea whether you're going. It's also OK that you don't know and don't want to know otherwise, enjoy your time on Earth and Be Excellent.

Emphasis mine.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

DanG

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Many spiritual leaders teach how to live this life on earth. Christ showed us a path for eternal life, if we choose to take it.

He also showed you a way to live life on Earth. It's that part of his teaching many seem to ignore. Cherry picking the parts you like and ignoring the parts you don't was not likely His intent.

As I stated in a quote from Joseph Prince earlier, we are stumbling upward.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Justincblount 4]

Even if I believed Jesus was a real historical figure, I'd still think he was a bad teacher that gives horrible advice. Apparently he was a good doctor though!

[DJL 232]

Justincblount

Even if I believed Jesus was a real historical figure, I'd still think he was a bad teacher that gives horrible advice. Apparently he was a good doctor though!

There's much evidence that he was a historical figure, he was at least one of several in that era who claimed himself to be the Messiah, it was a sort of fad. It's likely or possible that several other stories were attributed to him when scholars began putting the books together because much of that time only existed as word of mouth. The story of him being a central figure of the time is very unlikely because there is surviving documentation of the other central figures but not much on Jesus. That's not to say that much of that documentation could have been destroyed because of religious politics, the Romans were very quick to subdue religion because their emperor ruled by divine authority and therefore any other religion posed a defacto challenge to that authority. His trial Some of the first writings to show up regarding Christians were from Pliny the Younger asking Rome what to do about Christians because of this paradox.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,400]

>According to Oswald Chambers, if Christianity is not a supernatural miracle than it is a sham.

Yep. People have all sorts of odd beliefs.

>Christ showed us a path for eternal life, if we choose to take it.

Agreed.

I find it odd how so many Christians go to church, worship Jesus, proselytize outside their church for Christianity - but then abandon the teachings of Christ instantly when presented with issues in the real world.

"Refugees? Build a wall! Keep them out!"
"The poor? Tax them so they have skin in the game! And cut taxes on the rich."

"But Jesus said . . ."

"That's church stuff; it's not for the real world."

[jaybird18c 4]

jakee

You said the punishment is the only important thing that has to happen as a result of sin.

In this regard, punishment is certainly a consequence of sin which is transgression of the Law. Just like in our judicial system. However, it is not “the ‘only important thing’ that has to happen” as a result. I never said that. That’s only half the story. I went on to describe the rest. The part where God stepped in sending his Son, to pay the fine which was due us, in our place, because it is impossible for us to do so, imputing his righteousness to us, and our guilt to him, both undeserved.

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Right, so how did he suffer the punishment that was due to us? Jesus is not spiritually dead, therefore he did not spiritually die. In what sense did he serve as the recipient of the eternal punishment that will happen to us?

Jesus had two complete natures. In essence, he was fully human and fully divine. It’s called the hypostatic union.

***How does that work, then? If three days of spiritual death is enough to satisfy the requirement then why isn't that what will happen to me if I don't believe in god before I die?

How can you tell me that god is perfectly just if you're telling me that only 3 days of wrath is sufficient punishment for a life of sin, then the ensuing eternity of wrath is completely unnecessary?

Again, he suffered infinitely more than the obvious. The Bible says that “It pleased Yahweh to crush him.” God did not withhold judgment on him in order to ransom his people.

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I'm not focusing on the physical crucifiction. I didn't say anything about the physical crucifiction. It's patently obvious that the physical crucifiction couldn't possibly be a substitute for eternal punishment. Look, it's not my fault you chose to use such ambiguous terms to describe what you think is going on, but I was very clear that I was using 'death' to mean your term 'spiritual death' not 'death' death. Please try to pay attention.

Well, you’re focusing on three days being dead in a tomb and I’m trying to explain that it was much more than that. There’s no need to be an ass.

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Now, what unseen spiritual suffering did take place, and why was it enough to satisfy everyone's sin when each individual sinner will actually face far worse punishment?

Now you’re apparently not paying attention and staying focused. Because Jesus, being the Son of God, was infinitely more worthy than all of us combined. His sacrifice was deemed by God himself sufficient. Apart from him representing you before the Father, you will face judgement. However, it would be impossible for you to face the same, let alone worse, punishment which he did.

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I asked what would happen if I changed my mind after I died when it became clear that god really does exist.You said it was too late and I'd still be punished forever, god only makes that decision once. But with Jesus, god started punishing him, then stopped punishing him.

Why can't he do that with us?

God did not withhold punishment on his Son. That’s the point. It’s the same scenario as Moses and his son Isaac. He was to sacrifice his son. However, God stopped him and said that a sacrifice would be provided. This illustration was pointing forward to the worthy sacrifice which God would provide himself to save his people.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>According to Oswald Chambers, if Christianity is not a supernatural miracle than it is a sham.

Yep. People have all sorts of odd beliefs.

>Christ showed us a path for eternal life, if we choose to take it.

Agreed.

I find it odd how so many Christians go to church, worship Jesus, proselytize outside their church for Christianity - but then abandon the teachings of Christ instantly when presented with issues in the real world.

"Refugees? Illegal Immigrants Build a wall! Keep them out!"
"The poor? Tax them so they have skin in the game! And cut taxes on the rich." Income Tax is a fact of life for every working citizen. Taxes are cut to stimulate spending and grow the economy.

"But Jesus said . . ." I am the way, the truth and the life.

"That's church stuff; it's not for the real world." ???

Emphasis mine

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,400]

>"That's church stuff; it's not for the real world." ???

In other words, there are a lot of Christians out there who don't really follow Christ's teachings in the real world.

=========
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
=========
Then He also said to him who invited Him, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
=========
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
==========

And of course Christ teaches to follow the dictates of the Old Testament as well, which includes:

==========
When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt.
==========
For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’
==========
No stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler .
==========

Then they leave church and build a wall to keep the dirty, evil foreigners out. And push for laws to cut taxes on the rich and increase them on the poor. And they cut aid to the poor.

Then go back to church next week to hear more of the word of Christ.

[jakee 1,255]

jaybird18c

***You said the punishment is the only important thing that has to happen as a result of sin.

In this regard, punishment is certainly a consequence of sin which is transgression of the Law. Just like in our judicial system. However, it is not “the ‘only important thing’ that has to happen” as a result. I never said that. That’s only half the story. I went on to describe the rest. The part where God stepped in sending his Son, to pay the fine which was due us, in our place, because it is impossible for us to do so, imputing his righteousness to us, and our guilt to him, both undeserved.

But again, to me it sounds like everything you're describing there is about the punishment. The punishment is the only thing that moves the narrative forward, the rest is window dressing. Without the punishment, none of the rest of it matters. Without the punishment, none of it would make any difference to us, correct?

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***Right, so how did he suffer the punishment that was due to us? Jesus is not spiritually dead, therefore he did not spiritually die. In what sense did he serve as the recipient of the eternal punishment that will happen to us?

Jesus had two complete natures. In essence, he was fully human and fully divine. It’s called the hypostatic union.

I fail to see how that answers or even addresses the question in any sense whatsoever. Is either of the Jesuses currently spiritually dead and in the process of being punished forever?

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***How can you tell me that god is perfectly just if you're telling me that only 3 days of wrath is sufficient punishment for a life of sin, then the ensuing eternity of wrath is completely unnecessary?

Again, he suffered infinitely more than the obvious. The Bible says that “It pleased Yahweh to crush him.” God did not withhold judgment on him in order to ransom his people.

But he doesn't withold judgment on us either, does he? Except he doesn't withold judgment on us, forever. He didn't withold judgment on Jesus for 3 days, then he did withold it, and has been ever since. How did Jesus suffer enough in 3 days to match how much we suffer for infinity?

I think you said something earlier about hope, right? Well Jesus knew what was going to happen, didn't he? No matter what god was doing to him he had more than hope, he had the knowledge that it was temporary, and pretty soon everything would be amazing again. But you said dead people have no hope at all. if you're not in, you're out forever.

How can Jesus have been through anything that matches that?

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Well, you’re focusing on three days being dead in a tomb and I’m trying to explain that it was much more than that. There’s no need to be an ass.

No, I'm focusing on three days of spiritual death. How many times do I have to say spiritual? Spiritual, spiritual, spiritual. Unless you think spiritual death is just being dead in a tomb, then why on earth do you think that's what I'm talking about? Whatever it is you think it means, that's what I mean when I say it.

You said the punishment due was spiritual death. If you're now saying that focusing on spiritual death is is totally wrong, then you are being an ass.

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Because Jesus, being the Son of God, was infinitely more worthy than all of us combined. His sacrifice was deemed by God himself sufficient. Apart from him representing you before the Father, you will face judgement. However, it would be impossible for you to face the same, let alone worse, punishment which he did.

What does the worthiness have to do with the severity of the punishment? How can temporary punishment followed by eternal reward be worse than eternal punishment with no hope of escape?

How is that possible?

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I asked what would happen if I changed my mind after I died when it became clear that god really does exist.You said it was too late and I'd still be punished forever, god only makes that decision once. But with Jesus, god started punishing him, then stopped punishing him.

Why can't he do that with us?

God did not withhold punishment on his Son. That’s the point.

How is that the point? He clearly did withhold punishment. He withheld it almost immediately after he started it.

Why can't god decide to stop punishing us after he starts? You said we only get one chance, why that arbitrary decision?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Channman 2]

wolfriverjoe

There was a bit of discussion in the Bonfire, in regards to Stephen Hawking passing.
Someone posted a cartoon of him sitting in his wheelchair at the bottom of the 'stairway to Heaven.' and the comment was made that it wasn't accurate because he was an atheist and wouldn't go there.

Soooo...

Can an atheist make it into Heaven, presuming Heaven exists?

From one point of view, it's a clear "No." According to the more vocal Christians, the bible clearly states that "No man shall come to the Father except through me", meaning anyone who doesn't 'accept Jesus as his personal savior' is out of luck.

OTOH, it also states something to the effect of those who don't will spend time in limbo or purgatory, awaiting judgement day, when their eternal fate will be decided.

Some folks believe that a good person will be allowed into Heaven, no matter what they did or didn't believe. That it's deeds, not words.

And of course, some firmly believe that there is no Heaven or Hell at all, that it's all just made up. But they might be wrong.

So, as I noted in the Bonfire, Hawking was an amazingly intelligent man. By most accounts he was a kind and humble man too. A decent fella.
Would God create this sort of man, and then punish him with eternal damnation because he wasn't able to believe in an entity that has zero evidence? Only faith and belief?

And of course, because the idea started in the Bonfire, "boobies" has to be an option.

Well...this is an interesting topic...so I suppose your post is more about the Christian Faith and it's belief's in regards to a person who has no faith and Dies only to find out there is a Creator as mentioned in the bible.

So if one was to ask the question, then they should have an answer without all the But If's that are being discussed.

A simple answer can be found:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will no see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

So the answer would be NO...and that goes for those who call themselves Christians but do not know him for they to have not believed in their hearts that Jesus is who he say's he is.

Then there is the tried and true:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life".

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

To many to list here, but I hope I've answered your Post without dancing around the question.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>"That's church stuff; it's not for the real world." ???

In other words, there are a lot of Christians out there who don't really follow Christ's teachings in the real world.

=========
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
=========
Then He also said to him who invited Him, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
=========
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
==========

And of course Christ teaches to follow the dictates of the Old Testament as well, which includes:

==========
When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt.
==========
For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’
==========
No stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler .
==========

Then they leave church and build a wall to keep the dirty, evil foreigners out. And push for laws to cut taxes on the rich and increase them on the poor. And they cut aid to the poor.

Then go back to church next week to hear more of the word of Christ.

There are a lot of Christians out there, including me, that believe we should take care of those in our community. We do not believe the federal government should take our money and tell us how to best spend it.

Can you find a scripture that says we should not protect our borders?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,400]

>Can you find a scripture that says we should not protect our borders?

I can find plenty that say you should take in the hungry, the homeless foreigners and strangers you do not know and help them however you can. Several quotes pertaining to that are above.

If you were to see someone homeless and hungry on the Mexican side of the border, heading North trying to escape a bad situation in their home country, what do you think a Christian who truly followed the teachings of Christ would be called to do?