Can an atheist get into Heaven

[JoeWeber 2,299]

billvon

>If guns are what you need to be happy there will be guns in Heaven.

How ridiculous! Guns in heaven. That's some imagination you've got there!

Everyone knows that heaven is all about being close to God, who is a supernatural being from which all goodness flows. It is a place high in the sky where the righteous dead spend their days in peace and harmony until such time as they are reincarnated on Earth as people to stand before another (final) judgment.

Stop with the silly stories already.

I'll ilk to that!

[gowlerk 1,914]

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Stop with the silly stories already.

Silly story? Thanks for sharing yours! But in all seriousness, if guns are what you need then you shall have them. God will stand beside you at the range and encourage you. If puppies or unicorns are your desire, the heavenly father will provide. Reagan is up there with a big jar of his favourite jelly beans! And, when you lie down the mattress is just the right firmness with big fluffy soft pillows.

My version is just as valid as anyone elses. And so is yours. And Jay's too! If any of us make it up there and we meet, God will even see to it that we love each other. (But not physically, unless we all consent)

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[winsor 186]

Kinda like asking what is the true nature of Pokemon, or what kind of Kryptonite is the worst.

Religion is a communicable form of mental illness, some variants being more pathological than others. Christianity is hardly the most benign out there.

BTW, wrt the Bronze Age nonsense espoused by the Children of Israel, how many references are there to either hell or the devil in the Torah?


BSBD,

Winsor

[RonD1120 58]

winsor

Kinda like asking what is the true nature of Pokemon, or what kind of Kryptonite is the worst.

Religion is a communicable form of mental illness, some variants being more pathological than others. Christianity is hardly the most benign out there.

BTW, wrt the Bronze Age nonsense espoused by the Children of Israel, how many references are there to either hell or the devil in the Torah?


BSBD,

Winsor

That was an interesting exercise. Thanks.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 4]

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You claim that God's judgement is "righteous" and "perfect".

I asked you how that can be true, given the capricious and random nature of "God's Judgement" both as 'recorded' in the Bible and shown in everyday life.

Care to explain?

“Capricious and random” declared by you. What’s amazing is the patience God has demonstrated with those today who continually sin against him.

As an atheist, you’ve obviously not made God the top priority in your life. If that be the case, you’ve idolized and assigned other things in your life a higher value. I assume that, in spite of your disbelief, you’ve used the Lord’s name in vain. Keeping his day holy would be out of the question. I’m sure you’ve not always honored your parents. If you’ve ever hated another without just cause, you’ve committed murder in your heart. If you’ve ever looked with lust outside the covenantal bounds of marriage, you’ve committed adultery in your heart, if not also in deed. If you’ve ever stolen something, regardless of value or when, you’re a thief. If you’ve ever told a lie, you’re a liar. If you’ve ever dwelt on the desire to have something which doesn’t belong to you, you’re guilty of coveting.

Before questioning the Lawgiver, you ought to examine yourself and figure out how you’re going to do when you stand before the Judge when you die.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

As an atheist, you’ve obviously not made God the top priority in your life.

To be fair, as an atheist I've not made purple winged unicorns a top priority in my life, for exactly the same reasons.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jaybird18c 4]

I'm agnostic with regard to purple winged unicorns. Are you agnostic with regard to God?

[RonD1120 58]

A good friend of mine is a retired Pentecostal preacher. He maintains that a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion. He says, give them the Word of God only and let the Holy Spirit speak to their heart. That is true evangelism.

Preach Christ and Him crucified.

I am a terrible evangelist. As a counselor, I am interested in making it through the day as a grateful sinner saved by grace.

You do a better job here in the SC than I or anyone one else.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

RonD1120

A good friend of mine is a retired Pentecostal preacher. He maintains that a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion...

Well, I've been looking for some time and have yet to find any intellectual argument or persuasion.

Simply emotionalism, fear and superstition.

jaybird18c

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You claim that God's judgement is "righteous" and "perfect".

I asked you how that can be true, given the capricious and random nature of "God's Judgement" both as 'recorded' in the Bible and shown in everyday life.

Care to explain?

“Capricious and random” declared by you. What’s amazing is the patience God has demonstrated with those today who continually sin against him.

As an atheist, you’ve obviously not made God the top priority in your life. If that be the case, you’ve idolized and assigned other things in your life a higher value. I assume that, in spite of your disbelief, you’ve used the Lord’s name in vain. Keeping his day holy would be out of the question. I’m sure you’ve not always honored your parents. If you’ve ever hated another without just cause, you’ve committed murder in your heart. If you’ve ever looked with lust outside the covenantal bounds of marriage, you’ve committed adultery in your heart, if not also in deed. If you’ve ever stolen something, regardless of value or when, you’re a thief. If you’ve ever told a lie, you’re a liar. If you’ve ever dwelt on the desire to have something which doesn’t belong to you, you’re guilty of coveting.

Before questioning the Lawgiver, you ought to examine yourself and figure out how you’re going to do when you stand before the Judge when you die.

Well, I asked you to explain.

You responded with classic "gaslighting." Which is your usual tactic. I mentioned it a page or so back.

"Capricious and random" according to me, and to the entire legal community and insurance industry.
"Act of God" is a legal term. Meaning an unpredictable action (usually a calamity) that has no apparent reason or meaning to it.

While "God's patience" may be amazing to you, I find the patience of the believers to be even more so. The Bible quotes Jesus as saying he'd be back in the lifetime of the apostles. Yet it's been almost 2000 years and lots of people are still waiting.

You ask me about my 'sins." Well, I'm an imperfect human. I have the same emotions and instincts as everyone else.

My priority isn't on God. It's on being the best person I can be. Being of service to my community and my fellow man. To try to see where I fell short today and to try and do better tomorrow.

And as a human being, I am curious and (somewhat) intelligent. Either by evolution or created by God.
So if God created me that way (and created me as a sinner too), why would He punish me for being exactly what He created?

I'm not really worried about what happens when I die. I have no reason to believe I will be anything but dead.
I may, however be wrong. If so, and I "stand in judgement", then I plan on asking Him what the fuck is wrong with Him.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jaybird18c 4]

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"Capricious and random" according to me, and to the entire legal community and insurance industry. "Act of God" is a legal term. Meaning an unpredictable action (usually a calamity) that has no apparent reason or meaning to it.

We used the verbiage “Act of God” as a legal term for unpredictable/unexplainable circumstances and your inference is that God’s statues are “capricious and random?”

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While "God's patience" may be amazing to you, I find the patience of the believers to be even more so. The Bible quotes Jesus as saying he'd be back in the lifetime of the apostles. Yet it's been almost 2000 years and lots of people are still waiting.

To what exactly do you refer?

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You ask me about my 'sins." Well, I'm an imperfect human. I have the same emotions and instincts as everyone else.

No argument there.

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My priority isn't on God. It's on being the best person I can be. Being of service to my community and my fellow man. To try to see where I fell short today and to try and do better tomorrow.

But you’re already guilty of being a liar, thief, adulterer, etc. That’s like a criminal saying I murdered so and so but for 10 years I helped granny across the street to make it alright.

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And as a human being, I am curious and (somewhat) intelligent. Either by evolution or created by God. So if God created me that way (and created me as a sinner too), why would He punish me for being exactly what He created?

God created you but he’s never…I repeat…never caused someone to sin. You are in fact responsible for your actions.

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I'm not really worried about what happens when I die. I have no reason to believe I will be anything but dead. I may, however be wrong. If so, and I "stand in judgement", then I plan on asking Him what the fuck is wrong with Him.

A guilty criminal stands in court before the Judge who’s about to place sentence and he asks the Judge what’s wrong with him? Maybe that satisfies the criminal in some way but justice will take its course regardless.

[winsor 186]

jaybird18c

I'm agnostic with regard to purple winged unicorns. Are you agnostic with regard to God?

Purple winged unicorns have some amusement value. Deities do not (with some minor exceptions).

By most of the popular definitions, the very concept of a 'GOD' is, to put it in technical terms, fucking retarded.

[jakee 1,255]

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But you’re already guilty of being a liar, thief, adulterer, etc. That’s like a criminal saying I murdered so and so but for 10 years I helped granny across the street to make it alright.

So perfect justice is treating every infraction like murder?

Would you be OK with being pulled over for driving with a broken taillight and being given the death penalty?

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God created you but he’s never…I repeat…never caused someone to sin.

You said it's impossible for us not to sin.

God created us.

God caused everyone to sin.

Ipso facto.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,255]

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What’s amazing is the patience God has demonstrated with those today who continually sin against him.

Why is that amazing? He knew it was going to happen when he created us, yes? According to you, he made us this way. He gave us naturally occuring hormones that affect our higher brain functions in similar ways to some Class A drugs. He gave us hardwired instincts that we share with vicious primates. He gave us rules that run counter to everything our bodies are screaming at our brains to do.

And now he acts surprised?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SethInMI 145]

I was taught as a child that if I truly accepted Christ into my heart, my name would be written in the book of life, and when I died my soul would be taken by God and he would perfect me. I would be incapable of sinning anymore, and I was able to enter heaven. As a perfect being I would spend the rest of eternity with God living a wonderful existence.

One thougt that bothers me, is that if God is 100% good and is capable of making people perfect like he will for the Christians who enter Heaven, why would he not have created Adam and Eve that same way? Why not skip all the misery and pain of the past 1000's of years and just build a world of perfect people? Build the earth in Heaven itself, like some people claim the bible says will happen after the last judgement.

It is really really hard in the face of some terrible things that happen on this world to say, no no, this is really a better alternative. When a child dies of cancer, don't you ever wonder, why? If God will eventually construct a world where that can't happen, why this terrible prelude, just do it right the first time.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jaybird18c

We used the verbiage “Act of God” as a legal term for unpredictable/unexplainable circumstances and your inference is that God’s statues are “capricious and random?”

Not his statutes, his "justice".

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While "God's patience" may be amazing to you, I find the patience of the believers to be even more so. The Bible quotes Jesus as saying he'd be back in the lifetime of the apostles. Yet it's been almost 2000 years and lots of people are still waiting.

To what exactly do you refer?

Luke 21: 32-33 is one. There are others.

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My priority isn't on God. It's on being the best person I can be. Being of service to my community and my fellow man. To try to see where I fell short today and to try and do better tomorrow.

But you’re already guilty of being a liar, thief, adulterer, etc. That’s like a criminal saying I murdered so and so but for 10 years I helped granny across the street to make it alright.

Ummm... No.

You are the one accusing me of being a 'murderer, liar, thief, adulterer, ect'.
While I am a sinner, I am far from a 'evil' person. Just trying to get through the world as best I can.

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And as a human being, I am curious and (somewhat) intelligent. Either by evolution or created by God. So if God created me that way (and created me as a sinner too), why would He punish me for being exactly what He created?

God created you but he’s never…I repeat…never caused someone to sin. You are in fact responsible for your actions.

I agree that I am responsible for my actions, but I also agree with Jakee when he pointed out that you claimed it's impossible for us not to sin because God made us that way.
Since he created us as sinners, how is it not his fault that we sin?

No more that it's the cat's fault that he eats mice.

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I'm not really worried about what happens when I die. I have no reason to believe I will be anything but dead. I may, however be wrong. If so, and I "stand in judgement", then I plan on asking Him what the fuck is wrong with Him.

A guilty criminal stands in court before the Judge who’s about to place sentence and he asks the Judge what’s wrong with him? Maybe that satisfies the criminal in some way but justice will take its course regardless.

Huge difference between a criminal standing in front of a judge about to be sentenced and standing in judgement before God.

The judge did not create the criminal.
The judge did not create the laws that the criminal broke.

If I have to stand before God, it would not be as a criminal would stand before a judge, but far, far different.

And I honestly have no fear of that.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jaybird18c 4]

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So perfect justice is treating every infraction like murder?

Would you be OK with being pulled over for driving with a broken taillight and being given the death penalty?

An analogy I heard: If I lie to a guy on the street, not much will happen to me. If I lie to my wife, I’ll be sleeping on the couch for a while. If I lie to my employer, I’ll most likely get fired. If I lie to a Judge, I’ll probably go to jail for a very long time. Same crime. Different punishment. Why? Because of how much we esteem the one against whom the offense was directed. A perfectly holy and righteous God.

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You said it's impossible for us not to sin.

God created us.

God caused everyone to sin.

Ipso facto.

Man was originally created in the image of God with the free will to choose and with a nature which was in perfect harmony with God’s will. Man chose to sin. This had a radically corrupting effect not only on man’s nature but on all of creation. Because of this, you were born with a nature in conflict with and hostile towards God. You act exactly in accordance with your greatest desires which, apart from Christ, is contrary to his will. But you are still free to choose. It’s just that you choose to sin and are, therefore responsible. Unless God changes or “regenerates” your very nature, you will continue on your chosen path.

[jakee 1,255]

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If I lie to a guy on the street, not much will happen to me. If I lie to my wife, I’ll be sleeping on the couch for a while. If I lie to my employer, I’ll most likely get fired. If I lie to a Judge, I’ll probably go to jail for a very long time. Same crime. Different punishment. Why? Because of how much we esteem the one against whom the offense was directed.

Nah. Depends on what you lie to them about. If you lie to a guy on the street and it results in him giving you money under false pretences, you coud go to jail for a long time. If you lie to your boss about whether you think his kids are cute, not much will happen.

The key is mostly still whether the lie is important in and of itself.

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This had a radically corrupting effect not only on man’s nature but on all of creation. Because of this, you were born with a nature in conflict with and hostile towards God.

Just so we're clear then - the nature of every human being was corrupted long before I was born? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's not my fault'.

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But you are still free to choose.

How am I free to choose if it's impossible for me not to choose sin?

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Unless God changes or “regenerates” your very nature, you will continue on your chosen path.

Just so we're clear then - god could choose to regenerate my nature, and the very nature of creation, and enable me to live a life free of sin? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's his responsibility.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

I'm agnostic with regard to purple winged unicorns. Are you agnostic with regard to God?

I'm not agnostic to either one. There's no reason to consider either one might be anything more than a figment of collective imagination. I don't wonder about the existence of god or the existence of purple winged unicorns. An agnostic is inconclusive. As an atheist, I finds it irrational to even consider the question.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,299]

RonD1120

A good friend of mine is a retired Pentecostal preacher. He maintains that a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion. He says, give them the Word of God only and let the Holy Spirit speak to their heart. That is true evangelism.

Preach Christ and Him crucified.

I am a terrible evangelist. As a counselor, I am interested in making it through the day as a grateful sinner saved by grace.

You do a better job here in the SC than I or anyone one else.

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A good friend of mine is a retired Pentecostal preacher. He maintains that a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion.

You are joking, right? Neither you nor jaybird have offered any argument in favor of your God that can be called intellectual. Quoting a book isn't intellectual. Quoting an expert on book quoting isn't intellectual.

I'll concede that someone who is a believer and is fully versed in all of the currently popular holy books and can discuss them expertly is likely an intellectual. But then so also, I suppose, would be someone who had memorized all of the Dr. Seuss books and could recite them backwards.

Both would take some smarts, no doubt. Of course, both are equally useless in the real world.

So please, no more pretense that the ability quote the Christian Bible or to quote some self anointed interpreter of the bible is a form of intellectualism.

[gowlerk 1,914]

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A good friend of mine is a retired Pentecostal preacher. He maintains that a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion. He says, give them the Word of God only and let the Holy Spirit speak to their heart. That is true evangelism.

Your friend is correct. Intellectual persuasion is not an effective means of convincing anyone that magic is real. There is no intellectual reason for you, or him, or for anyone else to embrace faith. It is a decision every person makes for themselves. But it is largely influenced by the culture they belong to. A person like you, if you were raised in Arabia, would very likely be an Islamic fundamentalist.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

JoeWeber

So please, no more pretense that the ability quote the Christian Bible or to quote some self anointed interpreter of the bible is a form of intellectualism.

You are absolutely correct. You are the one looking for an intellectual argument. The Word of God is the written voice of the Holy Spirit. Your spirit either receives the Word or does not. It is spiritual not intellectual.

It is the same old argument from several years past before you showed up. You can't expect to receive physical evidence proving spiritual existence. You have to experience it.

That is why we say we overcome by the blood of Christ and by our testimony.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,255]

RonD1120

You are absolutely correct. You are the one looking for an intellectual argument. The Word of God is the written voice of the Holy Spirit. Your spirit either receives the Word or does not. It is spiritual not intellectual.

So wasn't it incredibly patronising of your good friend to say "a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion"?

Surely what he meant was "a person believing in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never provide intellectual persuasion."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nigel99 144]

https://youtu.be/uTH4TxESMkU

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[RonD1120 58]

jakee

***You are absolutely correct. You are the one looking for an intellectual argument. The Word of God is the written voice of the Holy Spirit. Your spirit either receives the Word or does not. It is spiritual not intellectual.

So wasn't it incredibly patronising of your good friend to say "a person not interested in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never respond to intellectual persuasion"?

Surely what he meant was "a person believing in the concept of heaven, hell or salvation will never provide intellectual persuasion."

That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth. The experience of salvation is too powerful, too good and, it reveals too much. Salvation is the most formidable memory one can retain. It is eternal.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,255]

RonD1120

That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?