Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

… I am focusing on truth.

I believe that …

See the problem?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

jcd11235

***… I am focusing on truth.

I believe that …

See the problem?

No. They don't.

They can't differentiate between objective truth, fact based truth, reality based truth and their own beliefs.

Or worse, they put their beliefs ahead of those sorts of truth.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jaybird18c 4]

theplummeter

But if Jesus suffered temporarily, knowing that he was headed back to heaven anyway (and that his suffering was needed to create a loophole for the law he made) and I will suffer infinitely for finite crimes won’t I end up suffering more than he did for the benefit of others?

Mistake #1: Assuming you are like God (Psalm 50:21). It's not possible to compare human suffering to that of Jesus as the hands of God on our behalf, even an eternity in hell.

[JoeWeber 2,316]

jaybird18c

***But if Jesus suffered temporarily, knowing that he was headed back to heaven anyway (and that his suffering was needed to create a loophole for the law he made) and I will suffer infinitely for finite crimes won’t I end up suffering more than he did for the benefit of others?

Mistake #1: Assuming you are like God (Psalm 50:21). It's not possible to compare human suffering to that of Jesus as the hands of God on our behalf, even an eternity in hell.

How can you know it's not possible to compare human suffering to that of Jesus and which of the following 53 interpretations of Psalm 50:21 do you rely on in your analysis?

KJ21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thyself. But I will reprove thee and set them in order before thine eyes.

ASV These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thyself: But I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

AMP “These things you have done and I kept silent; You thought that I was just like you. Now I will reprimand and denounce you and state the case in order before your eyes.

AMPC These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was once entirely like you. But [now] I will reprove you and put [the charge] in order before your eyes.

BRG These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

CSB You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you. But I will rebuke you and lay out the case before you.

CEB You’ve done these things and I’ve kept quiet. You thought I was just like you! But now I’m punishing you; I’m laying it all out, right in front of your face.

CJB When you do such things, should I stay silent? You may have thought I was just like you; but I will rebuke and indict you to your face.

CEV When you did all of this, I didn’t say a word, and you thought, “God is just like us!” But now I will accuse you.

DARBY These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether as thyself: [but] I will reprove thee, and set [them] in order before thine eyes.

DRA Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.

ERV When you did these things, I said nothing. So you thought that I was just like you. But I will not be quiet any longer. I will correct you and make clear what I have against you.

EHV These things you have done, and I kept silent. You thought I was just like you. I will indict you and accuse you to your face.

ESV These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.

ESVUK These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.

EXB I have kept quiet while you did these things, so you thought I was just like you. But I will ·scold [reprimand; reprove] you and ·accuse [indict] you ·to your face [L before your eyes].

GNV These things hast thou done, and I held my tongue: therefore thou thoughtest that I was like thee: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thee.

GW When you did these things, I remained silent. That made you think I was like you. I will argue my point with you and lay it all out for you to see.

GNT You have done all this, and I have said nothing, so you thought that I am like you. But now I reprimand you and make the matter plain to you.

HCSB You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you. But I will rebuke you and lay out the case before you.

ICB I have kept quiet while you did these things. So you thought I was just like you. But I will scold you. I will accuse you to your face.

ISV These things you did, and I kept silent, because you assumed that I was like you. But now I am going to rebuke you, and I will set forth my case before your very own eyes.”

JUB These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou didst think that I was altogether such a one as thyself, but I will reprove thee and set them in order before thine eyes.

KJV These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

AKJV These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

LEB These things you have done, and I have been silent; You imagined that I was just like you. I will rebuke you and present an argument before your eyes.

TLB I remained silent—you thought I didn’t care—but now your time of punishment has come, and I list all the above charges against you.

MSG Next, God calls up the wicked: “What are you up to, quoting my laws, talking like we are good friends? You never answer the door when I call; you treat my words like garbage. If you find a thief, you make him your buddy; adulterers are your friends of choice. Your mouth drools filth; lying is a serious art form with you. You stab your own brother in the back, rip off your little sister. I kept a quiet patience while you did these things; you thought I went along with your game. I’m calling you on the carpet, now, laying your wickedness out in plain sight.

MEV These things have you done, and I kept silent; you thought that I was indeed like you; but I will reprove you and make a case before your eyes.

NOG When you did these things, I remained silent. That made you think I was like you. I will argue my point with you and lay it all out for you to see.

NABRE When you do these things should I be silent? Do you think that I am like you? I accuse you, I lay out the matter before your eyes.

NASB “These things you have done and I kept silence; You thought that I was just like you; I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes.

NCV I have kept quiet while you did these things, so you thought I was just like you. But I will scold you and accuse you to your face.

NET When you did these things, I was silent, so you thought I was exactly like you. But now I will condemn you and state my case against you!

NIRV When you did these things, I kept silent. So you thought I was just like you. But now I’m going to bring you to court. I will bring charges against you.

NIV When you did these things and I kept silent, you thought I was exactly like you. But I now arraign you and set my accusations before you.

NIVUK When you did these things and I kept silent, you thought I was exactly like you. But I now arraign you and set my accusations before you.

NKJV These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, And set them in order before your eyes.

NLV You have done these things, and I have kept quiet. You thought that I was just like you. But I will speak sharp words to you, and tell you who is guilty to your face.

NLT While you did all this, I remained silent, and you thought I didn’t care. But now I will rebuke you, listing all my charges against you.

NRSV These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one just like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

NRSVA These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one just like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

NRSVACE These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one just like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

NRSVCE These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one just like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

OJB These things hast thou done, and I kept silent; thou thoughtest that I was altogether like thee; but I will reprove thee, and set the charge before thine eyes.

TPT All this you have done and I kept silent, so you thought that I was just like you, sanctioning evil. But now I will bring you to my courtroom and spell out clearly my charges before you.

RSV These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

RSVCE These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you.

TLV These things you have done—Should I keep silent? You thought I was just like you—but I reprove you, and set the case before your eyes.

VOICE While you did these things, I kept silent; somehow you got the idea that I was like you. But now My silence ends, and I am going to indict you. I’ll state the charge against you clearly, face-to-face.

WEB You have done these things, and I kept silent. You thought that I was just like you. I will rebuke you, and accuse you in front of your eyes.

WYC thou didest these things, and I was still. Thou guessedest wickedly, that I shall be like thee; I shall reprove thee, and I shall set (them) against thy face. (thou didest these things, and I was silent. And thou wickedly guessedest that I was just like thee; but I shall rebuke thee, and I shall do it to thy face.)

YLT These thou didst, and I kept silent, Thou hast thought that I am like thee, I reprove thee, and set in array before thine eyes.

[billvon 2,407]

>Mistake #1: Assuming you are like God

Mistake #0 (the 'original mistake' if you will) - assuming that God is like us.

[gowlerk 1,916]

billvon

>Mistake #1: Assuming you are like God

Mistake #0 (the 'original mistake' if you will) - assuming that God is like us.

Like saying that God created man in his own image? And assigning a male gender to Her?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,257]

jaybird18c

***But if Jesus suffered temporarily, knowing that he was headed back to heaven anyway (and that his suffering was needed to create a loophole for the law he made) and I will suffer infinitely for finite crimes won’t I end up suffering more than he did for the benefit of others?

Mistake #1: Assuming you are like God (Psalm 50:21). It's not possible to compare human suffering to that of Jesus as the hands of God on our behalf, even an eternity in hell.

"When Christ was incarnate as Jesus he was a complete, albeit most holy, human. The physical suffering He endured was only the beginning. On the cross He became sin and suffered spiritual death and separation from God, the Father."

Ron says that Jesus wasn't like god when all this happened. Ron says Jesus suffered at the hands of god like humans suffer at the hands of god.

Except we get punished forever, whereas Jesus gets rewarded forever. Which is worse?

Honestly right, if you had to choose between dying as an atheist and facing the punishment you think I'll face for eternity or being Jesus, which one would you choose?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

Man was created in the image of God. That means we were created to be like him in that we have the ability to share many of his attributes (communicable attributes). The “fruits of the spirit” would be an example. They include but aren’t limited to Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. On the other hand, there are attributes which are his alone (incommunicable attributes). An example of these would be omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. There are many more. I quoted Psalm 50:21. It means that although God has demonstrated much patience allowing time to repent, his patience is not without limit and justice will be done. He is NOT like fallen man with indifference to sin.

[jaybird18c 4]

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Ron says that Jesus wasn't like god when all this happened. Ron says Jesus suffered at the hands of god like humans suffer at the hands of god.

Jesus never relinquished his deity or ceased to be God in essence. Jesus is God in the flesh (e.g. Emmanuel). Fully God (e.g. Trinity) and fully human. Both of which were necessary in order to accomplish what was required to pay what was owed. He never stopped being “like God,” as you put it. He humbled himself, choosing to put aside some of his attributes for a time (Philippians 2:7). This was necessary for him to adequately represent us and to be a substitute (propitiation). His being fully human was demonstrated in that he anguished and cried tears of blood in anticipation of what was required. He even asked the Father if the task could be removed from him. Yet he was obedient. He also asked why God had forsaken him as he hung on the cross.

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Except we get punished forever, whereas Jesus gets rewarded forever. Which is worse?

The reason Jesus’ sacrifice was worthy and yours wouldn’t be is because his worth is incomprehensible. He is worth more than all of us put together and that’s not even a good comparison. That was demonstrated by his being raised from the dead by God himself, vindicating his sacrifice. Also, the bible says that “It pleased Yahweh to crush him.” Jesus paid the fine you owe by enduring the wrath of God himself. If you don’t repent, you’ll just go to hell forever.

[billvon 2,407]

>Like saying that God created man in his own image? And assigning a male gender to Her?

And assuming God propagates the same way we do, and has the same emotions we do, and has the same desires for vengeance and retribution we do etc etc. I always thought that it was a little suspicious that every version of God out there echoed the mores of the culture that created that particular instance.

[jaybird18c 4]

God is neither male nor female. He is spirit. Reference in the masculine has to do with role or position rather than sex. Jesus is also presented that way because the culture was set up that way. The male represented his family line. He was the authority or head of household. He was responsible for them “Federal Headship.” He was the protector, the provider, etc.

[jakee 1,257]

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Jesus never relinquished his deity or ceased to be God in essence....

He also asked why God had forsaken him as he hung on the cross.

You can't have it both ways. How could god have forsaken Jesus while he was being Jesus? Jesus can't suffer more because he is god, if the suffering is caused by being apart from god.

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The reason Jesus’ sacrifice was worthy and yours wouldn’t be is because his worth is incomprehensible.

Woah there, goalpost shift! You weren't saying his sacrifice was more worthy, you were saying his suffering was worse.

To which the question still stands: would you rather live through that punishment, resurrection and eternal reward as Jesus, or face the eternal hopeless punishment you think I'm going to get for being an unbeliever?

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Also, the bible says that “It pleased Yahweh to crush him.” Jesus paid the fine you owe by enduring the wrath of God himself.

But how does Yahweh crush Jesus while Yahweh is always intrinsically part of Jesus? Isn't this the "create a rock so big he can't lift it" paradox?

Can god be strong enough to crush himself?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,407]

>God is neither male nor female.

If you said that a few centuries ago you'd have been excommunicated for heresy for claiming that. Nowadays Catholics agree with that interpretation; Mormons are still 100% for the a male god (which agrees with Scripture.)

I have no doubt that in times to come it will change again and become more feminine or something (i.e. the mother of all creation works better in a lot of ways.)

Which is yet another reason I tend to not put too much faith in today's interpretation of God, religion, spirituality etc. It was different centuries ago; it will be different in the future. And all are just as right.

[jaybird18c 4]

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You can't have it both ways. How could god have forsaken Jesus while he was being Jesus? Jesus can't suffer more because he is god, if the suffering is caused by being apart from god.

I can’t have it both ways but God apparently can.
Trinity – God in three persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God in essence. Individual in person.
I also can’t explain it. If that’s what does it for you, then so be it. It is what it is. There are big topics like that which are unexplainable. Another big one would be the Incarnation.

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Woah there, goalpost shift! You weren't saying his sacrifice was more worthy, you were saying his suffering was worse.

I’m saying both.

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To which the question still stands: would you rather live through that punishment, resurrection and eternal reward as Jesus, or face the eternal hopeless punishment you think I'm going to get for being an unbeliever?

Now that’s a “false equivalence.”

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But how does Yahweh crush Jesus while Yahweh is always intrinsically part of Jesus?

Again. Trinity. Unexplainable. The Bible refers to stuff like that as a mystery. Nothing wrong with that. It just means we can’t understand it, as intended.

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Isn't this the "create a rock so big he can't lift it" paradox?

Can god be strong enough to crush himself?

Not really. Those would just be nonsensical statements.

[gowlerk 1,916]

billvon

>Like saying that God created man in his own image? And assigning a male gender to Her?

And assuming God propagates the same way we do, and has the same emotions we do, and has the same desires for vengeance and retribution we do etc etc. I always thought that it was a little suspicious that every version of God out there echoed the mores of the culture that created that particular instance.

Indeed. That’s why I say that if there is a creator it is not within our power to understand. It is clear to me that man created all the Gods we have ever worshiped.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,257]

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Trinity – God in three persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God in essence. Individual in person.
I also can’t explain it.

So ultimately what it all comes down to is that it doesn't make any sense, you don't even understand it yourself, but we're supposed to be convinced by it anyway?

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To which the question still stands: would you rather live through that punishment, resurrection and eternal reward as Jesus, or face the eternal hopeless punishment you think I'm going to get for being an unbeliever?

Now that’s a “false equivalence.”

Umm, not being funny dude, but do you know what 'equivalence' means?

I've been quite clear over the last couple of pages that I don't think the two are equivalent. They're definitely two different things.

Hence the question, if Jesus's suffering was so bad, would you rather be him and go through every bad and good thing he did, or be like me, and be destined for bad things forever?

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Not really. Those would just be nonsensical statements.

But that's what you said. You said that god crushed god. I mean I totally agree, it is nonsense - but do you really think that?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

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So ultimately what it all comes down to is that it doesn't make any sense, you don't even understand it yourself, but we're supposed to be convinced by it anyway?

I can't convince you of anything. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. But that first requires humility. Not much of that around here. The Bible isn’t clear on everything. It was not intended nor is it necessary. However, those things necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are clear (perspicuity/clarity of scripture).

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Umm, not being funny dude, but do you know what 'equivalence' means?

Any punishment you would receive isn't even comparable to that which Jesus endured on your behalf on the cross. Apples to oranges. You are equivocating the two in asking which you would prefer as if you were even on the same playing field. You're not. It's like asking would I rather be something impossible for me to be as opposed to something else. It's just a stupid question. Maybe I should have just said that was a stupid question. Is that better?

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But that's what you said. You said that god crushed god. I mean I totally agree, it is nonsense - but do you really think that?

I never said "God crushed God" and neither does scripture.

[JoeWeber 2,316]

jaybird18c

Man was created in the image of God. That means we were created to be like him in that we have the ability to share many of his attributes (communicable attributes). The “fruits of the spirit” would be an example. They include but aren’t limited to Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. On the other hand, there are attributes which are his alone (incommunicable attributes). An example of these would be omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. There are many more. I quoted Psalm 50:21. It means that although God has demonstrated much patience allowing time to repent, his patience is not without limit and justice will be done. He is NOT like fallen man with indifference to sin.

As ever, you don't answer the questions posed. Of course you believe that stuff. But how do you know? To be credible why not precede your statements with: I believe or my guess is or something similar?

[jaybird18c 4]

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Of course you believe that stuff. But how do you know? To be credible why not precede your statements with: I believe or my guess is or something similar?

First - How do I know?
1. Inner witness of the Holy Spirit.
2. Preponderance of the evidence.

Second - I don't need to seek your approval. Although, as Christians, we are to give answers for what we believe, truth does not need my defense. Truth stands whether or not either of us believe. And the truth is you will have to give an account one day for every thought, word, and deed in this lifetime.

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[DanG 1]

I can buy that you feel the Holy Spirit in your being.

What I don't get is how you can claim the preponderance of evidence supports your beliefs. There is absolutely zero evidence for your religion or any other religion.

- Dan G

[JoeWeber 2,316]

jaybird18c

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Of course you believe that stuff. But how do you know? To be credible why not precede your statements with: I believe or my guess is or something similar?

First - How do I know?
1. Inner witness of the Holy Spirit.
2. Preponderance of the evidence.

Second - I don't need to seek your approval. Although, as Christians, we are to give answers for what we believe, truth does not need my defense. Truth stands whether or not either of us believe. And the truth is you will have to give an account one day for every thought, word, and deed in this lifetime.


Evidence:

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Where is your preponderance of evidence to be found?

Even the Israeli School of Archeology, after exhaustive research in the field, has concluded that the Exodus never happened. With full access to any pertinent sites, they found no evidence.

Quoting the bible as evidence is like popping an empty bag: a lot of noise but nothing else. Of course, the fact that it is unsupported gibberish only speaks to it's own falseness; the existence of God, if you like, is still an available argument.

So if you have actual evidence that the bible is a work of truth please show it. Otherwise just say I have no evidence, I can not prove anything, it's just what I believe because of a wonderful feeling I get and anyone who thinks that's not evidence enough can just bugger off.

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[jakee 1,257]

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I can't convince you of anything. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. But that first requires humility. Not much of that around here.

Just like with Trump, bragging that you're more humble than the people you're talking to will generally be taken as evidence of the opposite

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Any punishment you would receive isn't even comparable to that which Jesus endured on your behalf on the cross.

Exactly, the punishment I would receive is clearly far worse.

But why do you think the fleetingly temporary punishment Jesus received is worse than what I would receive forever? You dodged the question last time by saying it was worth more because he was god, you haven't tried to explain how it could possibly be worse.

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You are equivocating the two in asking which you would prefer as if you were even on the same playing field.

Then how does one serve as replacement for the other? How does the punishment of Jesus 'fulfil' and replace the punishment of men, if the punishment of Jesus is so completely different to and seperate from the punishment of men that they can't even be compared or ranked on a scale?

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It's like asking would I rather be something impossible for me to be as opposed to something else.

Well, they're both impossible, duh. But you believe they both actually happened and continue to happen, so to you they're both real. And surely, if you really think what Jesus went through is that bad then the answer should be easy, yet you can't bring yourself to say it. Why is that?

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I never said "God crushed God" and neither does scripture.

You said "it pleased Yahweh to crush him (Jesus)." Yahweh is god, right? And Jesus is god, right?

So.....?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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2. Preponderance of the evidence.

You just said the thing we were supposed to believe was a mystery. Now you say it's supported by a preponderance of evidence?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 4]

It's like stirring up an atheist hornet nest.
Awesome! Busy now but will respond later.

[jaybird18c 4]

How do we know the Bible is true? (Dr. Ravi Zacharias)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fngw6Br65BI