Donald Trump Versus Hillary Clinton

[turtlespeed 212]

GeorgiaDon

************Hi Robert,

Quote

Trump has major financial dependencies on Putin and his cronies.

Quote: "Post-bankruptcy Trump has been highly reliant on money from Russia . . . "

Hey turtle, how is this different than people donating to the Clinton Foundation? Oh, oopsie, he's a Republican.

Jerry Baumchen

Nope. Not a republican.

Investments in business opportunities is different than donation to a foundation.

I would have thought you could figure that out. I guess not.They are indeed quite different.

Donations to the Clinton foundation go towards funding microloans to help poor people start their own business, protection for elephants against poaching, providing AIDS for the poor, etc. None of the donations find their way into the Clinton's pockets.

Investment in The Donald's businesses go towards profit-making ventures, and a large share of the profits go directly into The Donald's pocket.

Which one do you will be more likely to directly affect policy?

Don

So you are in no doubt that Saudi Arabia and those others listed are so worried about or poor people that figured sending money to the Clinton foundation was the best option.



You sofunnay!I do not read minds, so I can't speak to the motives that might apply to Saudi Arabia. However, if they were trying to buy influence it seems odd that the contributions were made in 2014, after Hilary Clinton had left the post of Secretary of State.

Republicans have introduced legislation, termed the CLINTON Act, which would bar foundations with any connection to anyone who had previously held a high government position from ever accepting donations from any foreign source. "CLINTON" is short for "Contributions Legally Interdicted from Noncitizens to Our Nonprofits", of course it is not targeted to the Clinton Foundation, the name is just a "coincidence". Never mind that this legislation would eviscerate the work of the Carter Foundation, which does fantastic work to eliminate a number of tropical diseases in the developing world. No sacrifice is too great when it comes to screwing over the Clintons, it seems, especially when the sacrifice is borne by the poor and the sick.

Of course, such a ban would have no effect on charitable foundations established by former Republican presidents, because there are none. Republican former presidents have established no such charities. Apparently they have other priorities for how to spend their time and money. Both the Bushes do have foundations which exist to support their presidential libraries.

On the other hand, Turtle, it seems you are just fine with the cosy business relationship between the Republican nominee and the Russian president and his cronies. Perhaps you prefer your corruption straightforward and uncomplicated, a simple transaction from Putin to The Donald's pocket. No side trips through support for fighting disease or poverty, just a straight line from A to B. At least now it is easier to understand the bromance between Trump and Putin. It is also easy to understand why Trump will not release his tax returns, as those returns would reveal the extent to which Trump is dependent on Russian money to keep his businesses afloat.

Don

That is a pretty big bandwagon y'all jump on.

Just because I am not for Hillary, does not mean I am for trump, or his ideas.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[ryoder 1,384]

GeorgiaDon

On the other hand, Turtle, it seems you are just fine with the cosy business relationship between the Republican nominee and the Russian president and his cronies. Perhaps you prefer your corruption straightforward and uncomplicated, a simple transaction from Putin to The Donald's pocket. No side trips through support for fighting disease or poverty, just a straight line from A to B. At least now it is easier to understand the bromance between Trump and Putin. It is also easy to understand why Trump will not release his tax returns, as those returns would reveal the extent to which Trump is dependent on Russian money to keep his businesses afloat.

Don

I have another theory why he won't release tax returns;
Trump's ghostwritten book "Art of the Deal" was a big success, and led to him being chosen for "The Apprentice". That show got him public name recognition, which he has monetized by signing contracts in which he sells the use of his name, but is not invested in the project whatsoever, (and also has no risk). I theorize his tax returns would show his income is mostly from selling his name, and not from being a businessman.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,384]

This amused me so much, I watched it a couple times.
Bill Maher - "The '50s Guy": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzUd8YrFJCk

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Phil1111 911]

“experts are telling us that Russian state actors broke in to the DNC, took all these emails and now are leaking them out through these Web sites. . . . It’s troubling that some experts are now telling us that this was done by the Russians for the purpose of helping Donald Trump.”.....

The emails were released Friday on Twitter by WikiLeaks. The document dump follows a report last month by The Washington Post that Russian government hackers had penetrated the computer network of the DNC, gaining access to an entire database of opposition research, among other material....

On Sunday, Mook and others noted that Trump has taken positions in the campaign that seem to align with those held by Russian President Vladi­mir Putin. He cited Trump’s recent statement on NATO — that he might not provide assistance to member states that hadn’t contributed their financial share — as a sign that the Republican nominee is taking positions favorable to Putin.

“I think when you put all this together, it’s a disturbing picture and voters need to reflect on that,” Mook told CNN in an interview Sunday.

Trump’s campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, flatly denied the insinuation, calling Mook’s comments “pure obfuscation” on ABC’s “This Week.”...

Last month, the forensic firm CrowdStrike said two competing Russian intelligence hacker groups penetrated the DNC’s computers. In the past 24 hours, cybersecurity experts have said that the email cache released by WikiLeaks on Friday appears to have been given to the anti-secrecy group by Russian intelligence.

Thomas Rid, a professor at King’s College London, said in an interview that in a private chat on Twitter on Saturday, he communicated with the entity that claimed to have released the email cache to WikiLeaks.

The party, which calls itself Guccifer2, last month claimed responsibility for the DNC hack. Several independent analysts have concluded that Guccifer2, who claimed to be Romanian, is likely linked to Russia.

“We’ve been looking at this very closely from both the technical and non-technical spheres,” said Richard Barger, chief information officer for ThreatConnect, a cyber-intelligence software firm. “Based on our analysis, we strongly feel Guccifer2 is linked to a Russian information operations campaign and is not the independent Romanian hacker that he claims to be.”

The apparent link to Russian intelligence raises troubling implications for U.S. foreign relations and national security. Russia has not to date tried to interfere in U.S. elections, analysts say. But if this is a deliberate effort by the Kremlin to meddle, it is worrisome, they say.

Michael G. Vickers, who served as undersecretary of defense for intelligence from 2011 to 2015, said an effort by the Russians to release intelligence in advance of a U.S. election is likely unprecedented.

“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-campaign--and-some-cyber-experts--say-russia-is-behind-email-release/2016/07/24/5b5428e6-51a8-11e6-bbf5-957ad17b4385_story.html

[turtlespeed 212]

“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,400]

>Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of
>a fair election campaign?

Yes. Giving Russia control over our elections is a more serious problem than a candidate losing a primary he would have lost anyway.

Unless you are a Republican, of course.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of
>a fair election campaign?

Yes. Giving Russia control over our elections is a more serious problem than a candidate losing a primary he would have lost anyway.

Unless you are a Republican, of course.

Who are you trying to bullshit?
They don't have control of our elections anymore than we have control over the elections in Australia.

IF ANY AT ALL, it is minor influence.

This is just fear mongering bull shit from a party that knows it fucked up and wants to redirect the attention.

Who is "Giving" control of our elections? The only one(s)* that could be is Hillary with her actions and the DNC for their actions, otherwise there would be no influence to be had.

*(I'm not convinced that the DNC and Hillary we're ever different entities.)

And I don't believe Sanders would have lost.
After all the BS - I'm surprised some of the super PACs haven't cut bait and recast.

I guess there has been enough promises and greased palms that squeaked by again.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

***
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,123]

turtlespeed

******
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

Interesting that you fear the Saudi Arabian donations to the Clinton Foundation will garner favour, but that large business dealings with Russia would not be an issue.

[Phil1111 911]

turtlespeed

******
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

""So it certainly does happen that candidates switch into and out of independent status, and I suppose they're called by whatever party they're running as at the time," said Marjorie Hershey, a professor of political science at Indiana University who specializes in political parties.

Sanders listed the Democratic Party as his party affiliation in his statement of candidacy. At the start of his campaign, he still seemed uncomfortable self-identifying as a Democrat.

When asked if he would officially join the party on April 30, 2015, when he announced his candidacy, Sanders said, "No, I am an independent who is going to be working with the —" cutting himself off mid-sentence."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/feb/23/bernie-sanders-democrat/

So the actions of a few Dem insiders doing the exact same thing that RNC insiders tried to do with Trump. Is more important than US national security, US electoral Independence and free elections?

Yikes. There is a reason why the Russian hackers didn't release the RNC emails. For Putin, Trump is the man.

[jakee 1,255]

turtlespeed

Just because I am not for Hillary, does not mean I am for trump, or his ideas.

Nice body swerve. He didn't say you were for trump (although you've made it quite clear that in a straight fight you're in his corner not hers), he pointed out how absurd it was for you to condemn donations to a foundation but not care about business relationships that personally benefit a candidate.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

******
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

That's a "Fair Weather Friend"; claiming to join the party just so he could be a candidate. He had not paid his dues to the party like the other Dem candidates had. He just "joined" for his own convenience.

IMO the DNC owed him nothing.

And I say that as one who preferred him over Clinton.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

******
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

From Sanders' OWN web site this morning: Bernie Sanders is serving his second term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2012 with 71 percent of the vote. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

*********
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

From Sanders' OWN web site this morning: Bernie Sanders is serving his second term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2012 with 71 percent of the vote. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

So what I'm hearing you say is that you believe there was no foul play involved in the DNCs deliberate scheming and hindering of Sanders.

I also think by extension you don't think the fake protests and fake websites and fake this and fake that is Ok as well.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

************
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

From Sanders' OWN web site this morning: Bernie Sanders is serving his second term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2012 with 71 percent of the vote. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

So what I'm hearing you say is that you believe there was no foul play involved in the DNCs deliberate scheming and hindering of Sanders.

I also think by extension you don't think the fake protests and fake websites and fake this and fake that is Ok as well.

What I'm saying is that the DNC owed Sanders nothing. That is what I am saying. The rest is in your imagination.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

***************
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

From Sanders' OWN web site this morning: Bernie Sanders is serving his second term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2012 with 71 percent of the vote. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

So what I'm hearing you say is that you believe there was no foul play involved in the DNCs deliberate scheming and hindering of Sanders.

I also think by extension you don't think the fake protests and fake websites and fake this and fake that is Ok as well.

What I'm saying is that the DNC owed Sanders nothing. That is what I am saying. The rest is in your imagination.

OK - then I ask you:
1) Did the DNC do wrong by scheming against Bernie?
2) Did the DNC do wrong by their action creating fake protests and fake job ads?
3) Did the DNC do wrong by sending in spy's and moles to infiltrate the sanders camp?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,400]

>They don't have control of our elections anymore than we have control over the
>elections in Australia.

Given the massive amount of Russian money going to Trump - and Trump's consequent glowing praise for Putin - that is no longer true.

WaPo:
=======
Inside Trump’s financial ties to Russia and his unusual flattery of Vladimir Putin

Rosalind S. Helderman and Michael Birnbaum
June 17

. . . The weekend was fruitful for Trump. He received a portion of the $14 million paid by Agalarov and other investors to bring the pageant to Moscow. Agalarov said he and Trump signed an agreement to build a Trump Tower in the heart of Moscow — at least Trump’s fifth attempt at such a venture. And Trump seemed energized by his interactions with Russia’s financial elite at the pageant and a glitzy after-party in a Moscow nightclub.

“Almost all of the oligarchs were in the room,” Trump bragged to Real Estate Weekly upon returning home.

Trump’s relationship with Putin and his warm views toward Russia, which began in the 1980s when the country was still part of the Soviet Union, have emerged as one of the more curious aspects of his presidential campaign. . . .

Since the 1980s, Trump and his family members have made numerous trips to Moscow in search of business opportunities, and they have relied on Russian investors to buy their properties around the world.

“Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets,” Trump’s son, Donald Jr., told a real estate conference in 2008, according to an account posted on the website of eTurboNews, a trade publication. “We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia.”
========

He has gotten secret financing for his projects from Russia:

============
Donald Trump Settled a Real Estate Lawsuit, and a Criminal Case Was Closed

By MIKE McINTIRE
APRIL 5, 2016
NYT

. . .

[Trump] and his co-defendants settled the case in November 2011, agreeing to refund 90 percent of $3.16 million in deposits, while admitting no wrongdoing.

The backdrop to that unusual denouement was a gathering legal storm that threatened to cast a harsh light on how he did business. Besides the fraud accusations, a separate lawsuit claimed that Trump SoHo was developed with the undisclosed involvement of convicted felons and financing from questionable sources in Russia and Kazakhstan.

. . .

Mr. Lauria brokered a $50 million investment in Trump SoHo and three other Bayrock projects by an Icelandic firm preferred by wealthy Russians “in favor with” President Vladimir V. Putin, according to a lawsuit against Bayrock by one of its former executives. The Icelandic company, FL Group, was identified in a Bayrock investor presentation as a “strategic partner,” along with Alexander Mashkevich, a billionaire once charged in a corruption case involving fees paid by a Belgian company seeking business in Kazakhstan; that case was settled with no admission of guilt.

The project . . .occasionally received unexplained infusions of cash from accounts in Kazakhstan and Russia.
============

Result? Putin now endorses him; even calls him "brilliant and talented." Indeed, he has stated that Russia wants Trump to win - “Of course we welcome that.” And Trump reciprocates - "I think maybe we should do a little following and let the neighbors take a little bit more of an active role in the Ukraine." So he is content to "follow" Putin.

Putin is a lot shrewder than previous Russian leaders. He does not bully US leaders into submission - he purchases them.

>Who is "Giving" control of our elections?

Trump. Next question?

[winsor 186]

kallend

*********
“What is really new here is the attempt to influence the politics of the United States. That is the problem,” he said."

Is that more of a problem than Hillary knowingly and actively cheating Sanders out of a fair election campaign?

Or do you believe she knows what is better for her own party voters than they do?

Sanders is an Independent. He is not a Dem, he just caucuses with them.

According to Wikipedia, since 2015 he's been D . . . When Cooper asked him at a townhall, "In your heart are you a democrat?", and Bernies said "Sure."

Soooo - Wether you like it or not he has declared democrat.

From Sanders' OWN web site this morning: Bernie Sanders is serving his second term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2012 with 71 percent of the vote. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

If we are cool with people with penises declaring themselves to be women and so forth, what's all the fuss about a commie declaring himself to be a Democrat? It's about the same..

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

OK - then I ask you:
1) Did the DNC do wrong by scheming against Bernie?

No - since he only became a member for the purpose of getting their resources.

Quote

2) Did the DNC do wrong by their action creating fake protests and fake job ads?

Lying is bad. Just like this.

Quote

3) Did the DNC do wrong by sending in spy's and moles to infiltrate the sanders camp?

No, since it's become par for the course for several decades. Ever hear of Nixon's "Plumbers"? Just like US spies on Russia, Russia spies on US, we both spy even on our own allies... Expected behavior.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,384]

Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, is backing Clinton: https://theintercept.com/2016/07/25/robert-kagan-and-other-neocons-back-hillary-clinton/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,400]

ryoder

Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, is backing Clinton: https://theintercept.com/2016/07/25/robert-kagan-and-other-neocons-back-hillary-clinton/

Yep, makes sense.

A Clinton win is a problem for neocons - it gives them an obstacle in the White House, and it means all their policy objectives become that much harder. But they know how to deal with that problem; they have spent the past 8 years trying to stop everything Obama has done, and they can do it for another 4 or 8 and emerge just as powerful as they are now.

But a Trump win means that they will be identified with Trump, and they know they can't survive that and maintain power.

[nolhtairt 0]

Dear God, please let this be real.

[RonD1120 58]

This just in....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-dnc-has-barely-started-and-delegates-are-already-booing-hillary-clinton/ar-BBuQMrx?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ryoder 1,384]

Maple Match: http://www.maplematch.com/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.