To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

[Fast 0]

There is no arguing against the numbers. The math/statistics are clear without question, vaccinations are less risk than the myriad of diseases. This will only become more and more true as the number of people in the world grows and the time it takes to move around lessens.

Not to mention people who are skipping them, they cause more risk of these diseases.

The crazy thing about all this is that I have a hard time understanding what people do who don't trust doctors. I mean, if you get sick with something that could be prevented by one of these vaccines you're going to end up at a doctor or hospital anyways. I mean, do you turn down all injections ever?

I do believe that mistakes are made and sometimes malicious intent surfaces, worldwide conspiracy to hide that vaccines cause autism is pretty high on the tinfoil hat list to me.

I don't have children yet, but will at a point not too far away and I believe this is something important to have done. For their safety now, in the future and in the event of any kind of catastrophic failure of society (which is also unlikely).

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Fast 0]

Iago

***
I do believe that mistakes are made and sometimes malicious intent surfaces, worldwide conspiracy to hide that vaccines cause autism is pretty high on the tinfoil hat list to me.

Nah, that's not what's been happening. Just like ADD and ADHD years ago, they keep expanding the 'categories' and are therefore 'diagnosing it better.' That's why the ever increasing 'autism' rate will keep going up until they move on to the next thing on the list.

Every group of kids has it's social 'pecking order.' So that kid off in the corner playing by themselves is probably doing that because they're tired of the other kids always taking their toy. They don't get along so they don't hang out together.

Nowadays they're diagnosed as being 'autistic' and lumped in with ones that really ARE having problems that need treatment. So, we have to find some type of link to something and it ended up being vaccines.

Decades ago there was a big investigation into ice cream as a possible cause of childhood polio. Cases of polio spike up in the summer, kids eat more ice cream in the summer, does ice cream therefore cause polio? Now, there may have been a secondary or even tertiary impact as kids gather around in groups and share ice cream cones like kids do. One kid is a carrier and infects two or three others.

There should have been a "but" in that sentence I wrote right after the comma.

I also agree with you.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[shropshire 0]

Vaccinate them or keep them away from the 'herd' .. simples.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[winsor 186]

normiss

Smallpox killed 500,000,000 people from 1900 to 1979.
None since 1979.

I am one of the last people you will meet with real smallpox scars.

I have had Pertussis (Whooping Cough).

I have had Coxsackievirus, referred to at the time as 'Mutation of Polio.'

I'm no stranger to Autism.

I do not want my kid to go through any of the illnesses preventable by appropriate inoculation, and he's still neurotypical. Go figure.


BSBD,

Winsor

[sfzombie13 307]

neither do i, but you guys are all ignoring the completely logical exception i have put out there in relation to vaccines. i am not arguing against them, i am saying there are too many, way too early. hep a and b for a 6 month old baby? really? this is an example of the drug industry when allowed to revise recommendations based on profits. and the damn hpv vaccine is nothing more than a farce. the inventor of it even admitted to this. at no place on here do i hear anyone talking about this. do your research before posting anything else. and don't listen to studies funded by the drug industry.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[DanG 1]

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and the damn hpv vaccine is nothing more than a farce. the inventor of it even admitted to this.

I've never heard this. Do you have any details?

- Dan G

[kallend 1,623]

ibx

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2rCbOZbp8

I had measles and pertussis (whooping cough) as a child, and several kids in my school got polio. Huge epidemics of each of these prior to vaccines becoming available. Measles in particular killed thousands and polio was devastating.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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i am saying there are too many, way too early

On what basis do you say this? What is your training as a clinician or immunologist? Or are you just "going with your gut" (that whole truthiness thing)?

Quote

hep a and b for a 6 month old baby? really?

You can be exposed to hepatitis in a number of ways. Sure, sex is a common one and one hopes that a baby would not be exposed that way. But if that baby is later in an accident and needs a blood transfusion, it's too late then to vaccinate and wait for a decent antibody titer to develop before giving the transfusion. Anyway, if the clinical and epidemiological evidence indicates no increased risk giving the vaccine early, then what is the advantage of waiting? Wouldn't that be kind of awkward: "Well Suzie, you're starting to develop physically and boys are getting interested in you, so maybe it's time to get those shots before you start fucking?"

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this is an example of the drug industry when allowed to revise recommendations based on profits

The drug company gets paid the same if the patient is 6 months or 16 years.

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and the damn hpv vaccine is nothing more than a farce. the inventor of it even admitted to this

What do you mean by "farce"? That it doesn't work? And the "inventor" (who is that? Many people worked on that vaccine) admits it? So the clinical trials were faked, and the FDA played along, just so a drug company could make money selling a product they knew did not work? Perhaps you can provide some links or evidence to back up such a claim.

Quote

and don't listen to studies funded by the drug industry.

Clinical trials are overseen by the FDA and in most cases the NIH. Are you saying they are all in cahoots to deceive the public?

Do you use any dietary supplements? Take megavitamins?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 2,400]

> hep a and b for a 6 month old baby? really?

Yes. Children who get Hep B are at greatly increased risk for cirrhosis, liver cancer and liver failure later in life. Preventing early infection is important.

>and the damn hpv vaccine is nothing more than a farce. the inventor of it even admitted to this.

No, she didn't. The HPV vaccine prevents HPV infection. HPV infection SOMETIMES causes cervical cancer. She was trying to point out that many people confuse HPV vaccination as a "cervical cancer vaccination" which it is not. (And, worse, they get a HPV vaccine and then don't get pap smears, thinking they are protected against cervical cancer.)

[hajnalka 0]

I've read through all 7 pages of posts.
Tough issue.

Please, listen to this:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/370/ruining-it-for-the-rest-of-us

This podcast contains the story of a boy who almost died from a measles infection. This was directly caused by parents who chose not to immunize their children. The boy who almost died was under 12 months of age, so he was too young to be immunized.

To directly reply to one of your points, about how your non-immunized child could possibly be a risk at school:

ANY non-immunized child can be a risk to EVERYONE they contact. Their contacts may have been immunized, but could still carry the infection to a baby too young to have the shots yet. Or to an elderly person. Or an immuno-compromised person. Or anyone else who is vulnerable.

I agree that the current schedule seems excessive, and I question the need to vaccinate babies for Hep A or B.

But, pertussis and measles outbreaks are making news, and this pisses me off. We have safe vaccines to prevent these diseases. Folks who choose not to vaccinate their children ARE causing these devastating diseases to make a horrible comeback:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/10/06/whooping-cough-outbreak-fueled-by-vaccination-refusals/

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/outbreaks.html

Measles was considered eradicated in the US in 2000. It is endemic in other countries. It is now gaining a foothold in the US again, due to travel and the anti-vaccination movement.

Think hard and long about keeping your kids safe.

[dmkellett 0]

you obviously are not scientifically literate.

Were you , you would realise that all the mumbo jumbo you just stated is not backed by this rather annoying thing that keeps getting in the way of pseudo-science believers.... DATA

its the DATA that forms the basis of clinical advice. NOTHING ELSE.

get your kids immunized. BE THANKFUL WE LIVE IN AN AGE THAT YOU CAN !

[sfzombie13 307]

man, you and everyone else here have accepted that these industries have your best interests at heart, not profits. and if you should have to use more of their products, then that means more profits. oh, yes, the government has nothing but your best interests in mind when they hand over the keys to the kingdom to corporations. if any of you would actually be just a tad more paranoid, it wouldn't kill you, and it may save your life. and just in case you and everyone else on here missed, i said that i was not an opponent of vaccinations. and if you can honestly refute what i just said by proving that drug companies can self-regulate without government intervention, then i will kiss my cat's ass and post it on youtube.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Calvin19 0]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

i am saying there are too many, way too early

On what basis do you say this? What is your training as a clinician or immunologist? Or are you just "going with your gut" (that whole truthiness thing)?

Quote

hep a and b for a 6 month old baby? really?

You can be exposed to hepatitis in a number of ways. Sure, sex is a common one and one hopes that a baby would not be exposed that way. But if that baby is later in an accident and needs a blood transfusion, it's too late then to vaccinate and wait for a decent antibody titer to develop before giving the transfusion. Anyway, if the clinical and epidemiological evidence indicates no increased risk giving the vaccine early, then what is the advantage of waiting? Wouldn't that be kind of awkward: "Well Suzie, you're starting to develop physically and boys are getting interested in you, so maybe it's time to get those shots before you start fucking?"

Quote

this is an example of the drug industry when allowed to revise recommendations based on profits

The drug company gets paid the same if the patient is 6 months or 16 years.

Quote

and the damn hpv vaccine is nothing more than a farce. the inventor of it even admitted to this

What do you mean by "farce"? That it doesn't work? And the "inventor" (who is that? Many people worked on that vaccine) admits it? So the clinical trials were faked, and the FDA played along, just so a drug company could make money selling a product they knew did not work? Perhaps you can provide some links or evidence to back up such a claim.

Quote

and don't listen to studies funded by the drug industry.

Clinical trials are overseen by the FDA and in most cases the NIH. Are you saying they are all in cahoots to deceive the public?

Do you use any dietary supplements? Take megavitamins?

Don

Good post.

[Calvin19 0]

I am happily impressed with this thread and poll.
Like I said earlier poll says 85-90% vaccinate themselves/children. That is nearly acceptable herd immunization levels for most of the bad ones.

I feel like the thread ran its course, these are the same points that go through all similar threads on reddit, 4chan, Facebook, etc. The thread was polarized as they always are. I wonder if anyone changed their minds.

Some people choose to believe different theories, like they have some superior insight with the ability to deny the accuracy of one of the best scientific accomplishments human technology has produced. Some 'free thinkers' attach themselves to radical, non-conformist ideas simply because they are radical or non conformist and label the rest of us sheeple.

I spend some too much of my time communicating science to psuedoscientists, conspiracy theorists, and the like. Mostly things relevant to my education in Aerospace and Meteorology (Chemtrails, Apollo, HAARP, etc). It's a great mind exercise and a great way to practice critical thought and scientific publication understanding. I spend time on this vaccine one because it really is the only one that actually matters for the future of the 'herd'. The rest is just just fun.


This is not a matter of opinion, this is not a matter of asking your god damned priest.

-SPACE-

[jclalor 12]

I just read this in the Skeptics dictionary.

Quote

The nirvana fallacy is a fallacy of assumption: if an action is not a perfect solution to a problem, it is not worth taking. Stated baldly, the assumption is obviously false. The fallacy is usually stated more subtly, however. For example, arguers against specific vaccines, such as the flu vaccine, or vaccines in general often emphasize the imperfect nature of vaccines as a good reason for not getting vaccinated: vaccines aren't 100% effective or 100% safe. Vaccines are safe and effective; however, they are not 100% safe and effective. It is true that getting vaccinated is not a 100% guarantee against a disease, but it is not valid to infer from that fact that nobody should get vaccinated until every vaccine everywhere prevents anybody anywhere from getting any disease the vaccines are designed to protect us from without harming anyone anywhere.

[sfzombie13 307]

Calvin19

I spend time on this vaccine one because it really is the only one that actually matters for the future of the 'herd'. The rest is just just fun.

this statement alone is crap. we have managed to live for over (however many thousands of years you choose to insert here) without vaccines. how many days are we capable of existing without water? how many without food? we can completely stop vaccinating everyone for everything right now and we will survive. without access to clean water or enough food (non-genetically modified) we will be gone.

drug companies are not interested in curing anything, they want to be able to mask symptoms and sell you those drugs for the rest of your life. if they cure anything, you buy them once and never again, not a very good business model. since it costs billions to develop the drugs, they need to get a return on investment of enough money to reap a profit. otherwise, they go under.

i'm not an idiot, there is good science out there, just as there are useful drugs. this problem i am speaking of may not be as wide spread as i choose to believe, but that is because i am a cynic when it comes to any corporation who says they have my best interest in mind. i hope i am wrong, but the way things are going now, this country is headed for ruin in less than two generations. you don't believe me on this? come on over and have some water. and that is the one that is going on right now. most of the groundwater is poisoned already from the coal industry. sacrifices made by us so that you can have lights. there's a great example of a corporation taking care of the people around it.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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we have managed to live for over (however many thousands of years you choose to insert here) without vaccines

Sure, before these evil drug companies came along, and all these evil medical researchers and doctors who just want to control and exploit us, people lived to be hundreds of years old. Just look at the Book of Genesis, I guess.

Or, you might look at sources such as [url"http://mappinghistory.uoregon.edu/english/US/US39-01.html"[this][/url] (amongst many others) to see what has happened to life expectancy. You may be surprised to learn that in the US at the beginning of the 20th century the average life expectancy at birth was just 47 years. By 1930, that rose to 59 years. That increase was not due to antibiotics, as the first of the antibiotics, penicillin, did not become available to be prescribed until after WW2. What do you imagine led to that increase in life expectancy? Today you can reasonably expect to live to your late 70s or beyond. Life expectancy has almost doubled in 100 years. If you think the drug companies are deceptive villains who peddle snake oil under the cover of the FDA and NIH, to what do you ascribe the increase in life expectancy?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 2,400]

> we have managed to live for over (however many thousands of years you choose to
>insert here) without vaccines.

Yep. And as a result, the death toll from disease was horrendous.

> we can completely stop vaccinating everyone for everything right now and we will survive.

For years almost everyone will survive, since immunity lasts years (in some cases decades.) Then as those diseases start taking hold in the next generation of unvaccinated children, more and more will die.

>drug companies are not interested in curing anything

Vaccines don't cure you. They keep you from getting sick in the first place.

>but that is because i am a cynic when it comes to any corporation who says they have
>my best interest in mind.

They don't. The reason I vaccinate myself (and my children) is based on doctor's advice, not corporation's advice.

[oneavatar 0]

on you tube- vaccinations:the real weapons of mass destruction and Lethal injection. my son wishes now that he had NOT vaccinated my grandson. your statement get children vaccinated is spoken from ignorance. watch the videos then reply

[/url]http://youtu.be/9WoMps4Pmpo

http://youtu.be/Tqx8NyPVrHg[url]

[PiLFy 0]

Broken Link.

This Thread is now crying for that gif about beating a dead horse... I don't think either side is going to change their minds on this one. Can we not move on, now?

[billvon 2,400]

>my son wishes now that he had NOT vaccinated my grandson.

Why?

[Stumpy 256]

billvon

>my son wishes now that he had NOT vaccinated my grandson.

Why?

The guy has one post and its that one - think you will get a coherent answer?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

man, you and everyone else here have accepted that these industries have your best interests at heart, not profits. and if you should have to use more of their products, then that means more profits. oh, yes, the government has nothing but your best interests in mind when they hand over the keys to the kingdom to corporations.

Is there a Godwin variation that applies whenever someone tries to win an argument by mentioning corporations?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

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we have managed to live for over (however many thousands of years you choose to insert here) without vaccines.

Some people have.

Quote

we can completely stop vaccinating everyone for everything right now and we will survive.

Some people will.

Quote

without access to clean water or enough food (non-genetically modified) we will be gone.

You don't need access to clean water for a community to survive, plenty of places in the third world are testament to that. You probably wouldn't want to swap places with them though.

Quote

drug companies are not interested in curing anything, they want to be able to mask symptoms and sell you those drugs for the rest of your life. if they cure anything, you buy them once and never again, not a very good business model. since it costs billions to develop the drugs, they need to get a return on investment of enough money to reap a profit. otherwise, they go under.

Yeah, and the governments got an engine that runs on water and yada yada yada.

If you've got facts at vaccine efficacy, bring that to the table. Paranoid rants about how corporations are evil therefore they're trying to fuck you all the time therefore vaccines made by corporations are dangerous is just penny ante diversionary bullshit and no-one's listening, no-one cares.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

sfzombie13

[
i'm not an idiot, there is good science out there, just as there are useful drugs. this problem i am speaking of may not be as wide spread as i choose to believe, but that is because i am a cynic when it comes to any corporation who says they have my best interest in mind. i hope i am wrong, but the way things are going now, this country is headed for ruin in less than two generations. you don't believe me on this? come on over and have some water. and that is the one that is going on right now. most of the groundwater is poisoned already from the coal industry. sacrifices made by us so that you can have lights. there's a great example of a corporation taking care of the people around it.

If your entire analysis is based on a belief that corporations are only motivated by selfish interests, then you probably should expand that thinking a little.

Drug companies run on research, done by doctors. These are people who are driven not only by money, but a God complex and a quest for fame, for a Nobel Prize. Many would do anything to go down in history as the person who ended disease X. And that's a drive that cannot be stopped by the MBA types within the corporations.