Choosing death from 10,000 feet

[airdvr 198]

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/111177564.html

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The pace of drone attacks on the tribal areas has increased sharply during the Obama presidency, with more assaults in September and October of this year than in all of 2008. At the same time, efforts to capture al-Qaida suspects have virtually stopped. Indeed, if CIA operatives were to snatch a terrorist tomorrow, the agency wouldn't be sure where it could detain him for interrogation.

Michael Hayden, a former director of the CIA, frames the puzzle this way: ''Have we made detention and interrogation so legally difficult and politically risky that our default option is to kill our adversaries rather than capture and interrogate them?''

Thanks to all those who made detention at Gitmo such an undesirable option.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Amazon 7]

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http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/111177564.html

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The pace of drone attacks on the tribal areas has increased sharply during the Obama presidency, with more assaults in September and October of this year than in all of 2008. At the same time, efforts to capture al-Qaida suspects have virtually stopped. Indeed, if CIA operatives were to snatch a terrorist tomorrow, the agency wouldn't be sure where it could detain him for interrogation.

Michael Hayden, a former director of the CIA, frames the puzzle this way: ''Have we made detention and interrogation so legally difficult and politically risky that our default option is to kill our adversaries rather than capture and interrogate them?''

Thanks to all those who made detention at Gitmo such an undesirable option.

Hey, this way its easier for Allah to sort em out!!!

[firemedic 7]

I wonder what the cost difference is between detention and trials vs blowing em up.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Thanks to all those who made detention at Gitmo such an undesirable option.

it was the human rights issues that made Gitmo a problem. Torture, indefinite imprisonment without trial, that stuff. Compounded by a really lame defense for the activity.

[Amazon 7]

No idea what an aptly named HellFire missle costs but there have to be good cost to benefit ratio's involved.

[shropshire 0]

If remote controlled killing is terrorism for them, then it surely is for us too.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[antonija 0]

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If remote controlled killing is terrorism for them, then it surely is for us too.

Nah man, that's like totally different! Cause if you use a missile instead of a ... wait what?

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[Coreece 190]

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If remote controlled killing is terrorism for them, then it surely is for us too.

if you are so sure, how about presenting an argument?

why is it that the UK Posse (other than Nigel) always asks for proof while hardly ever contributing anything substantial but their own meaningless opinions?

Surely, you not that lazy.

(and yes...I'll stop calling you Surely)

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Skyrad 0]

It was a valid question, critical thinking is something that is highly regarded in the UK, and just because an opinion may be one with which you don't agree doesn't make it meaningless.
If you notice the in the OP the remark about kill over capture was also put as a question rather than stated as a fact.
I don't believe that this is the case, the suspects could be interrogated quite easily inside Pakistan in ISI and police facilities if required and even tried and if found guilty executed by there. The problem is more one of a lack of timely actionable HUMINT in the NWFP. So there is an over reliance on SIGINT and overwatch which means that the easiest method of intervention is by the UAVs. By the time an operation could be mounted to capture the enemy would be either far away or most likely in a secure area which would mean potential US fatalities which are politically unacceptable.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Coreece 190]

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It was a valid question

nope...no questions.

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critical thinking is something that is highly regarded in the UK

bollocks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQkActP-isE

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and just because an opinion may be one with which you don't agree doesn't make it meaningless.

Never said I didn't agree...

and yes they are.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[shropshire 0]

Excuse me.... what proof are you after?

People set off remote bombs and are called terrorists.

People set of bombs remotely from Drones and are not.

Disguss

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jgoose71 0]

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Excuse me.... what proof are you after?

People set off remote bombs and are called terrorists.

People set of bombs remotely from Drones and are not.

Disguss

Your analogy is a little off. It's like saying:

-Criminals carry guns

-Cops carry guns, so why aren't they criminals?

It's more like:

-People who target civilian populations are terrorists.

-People who target terrorists to protect the civilian populations are not.

You are confusing actions with outcomes.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[shropshire 0]

so it's perspective?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

Except cops who accidentally kill civilians are held to account, where as if civilians are killed but the target is too then they're written off as collateral damage. So not really a great analogy.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[airdvr 198]

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If remote controlled killing is terrorism for them, then it surely is for us too.

Agreed. Instead of boots on the ground getting intel we got some hotshot RC jockey pushing buttons.

For those on the left that are agreeing with me you can stop patting yourself on the back. Your ilk plays a part in this clusterfuck by objecting to Gitmo.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[shropshire 0]

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If remote controlled killing is terrorism for them, then it surely is for us too.

if you are so sure, how about presenting an argument?

why is it that the UK Posse (other than Nigel) always asks for proof while hardly ever contributing anything substantial but their own meaningless opinions?

Surely, you not that lazy.

(and yes...I'll stop calling you Surely)

P.S - I prefer conversations where a person asks a short question or makes a short remark and then Listens for others opinions .. quirky, I know.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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If you notice the in the OP the remark about kill over capture was also put as a question rather than stated as a fact.
I don't believe that this is the case, the suspects could be interrogated quite easily inside Pakistan in ISI and police facilities if required and even tried and if found guilty executed by there. The problem is more one of a lack of timely actionable HUMINT in the NWFP. So there is an over reliance on SIGINT and overwatch which means that the easiest method of intervention is by the UAVs. By the time an operation could be mounted to capture the enemy would be either far away or most likely in a secure area which would mean potential US fatalities which are politically unacceptable.

+1 This is the real heart of the problem. If American/NATO/Pakistani forces could operate in the tribal areas capture would not be such an issue. Posing the problem as a choice between being allowed to use torture and indefinite detention or having to kill people is a false dichotomy. The real problem is the Pakistani government and military, which for political reasons has never had real authority in the tribal areas.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[champu 1]

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If remote controlled killing is terrorism for them, then it surely is for us too.

I don't think the remote controlled or in-person nature of the attack is relevant to whether it constitutes terrorism.

If the TTP sets off a roadside IED to destroy a convoy carrying coalition supplies that's not terrorism, even if it's phoned in and, yes, even if there are civilian casualties.

If AQ sets off a PBIED in a cafe near a coalition base it's terrorism, even though the attacker was there in person and, yes, even if it happens to kill military targets.

[billvon 2,406]

>-People who target civilian populations are terrorists.

Paul Tibbetts was a terrorist? Geez, and to think they gave him almost a dozen awards.

[nigel99 144]

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>-People who target civilian populations are terrorists.

Paul Tibbetts was a terrorist? Geez, and to think they gave him almost a dozen awards.

You do know the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist right?

Terrorist - someone who uses Guerrilla warface tactics but loses.

Freedom fighter - someone who uses Guerrilla warface tactics but wins.


I don't think awards stop you being a terrorist.

Robert Mugabe was given a knighthood but was clearly a terrorist (sorry freedom fighter)

Nelson Mandela has been given alot of awards etc and also falls clearly into the terrorist/freedom fighter camp.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[MikeJD 0]

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>-People who target civilian populations are terrorists.

Paul Tibbetts was a terrorist? Geez, and to think they gave him almost a dozen awards.

These days he'd probably be considered one. As would Arthur Harris.

[winsor 186]

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>-People who target civilian populations are terrorists.

Paul Tibbetts was a terrorist? Geez, and to think they gave him almost a dozen awards.

Col. Tibbetts was most certainly a terrorist. The idea of the attack was to convince Japan to surrender while there were still babies, grandmothers, widows and orphans left to incinerate. His intended purpose, which was to incinerate babies, grandmothers, widows and orphans, was achieved.

Ironically enough, the capitulation of Japan was not as much in response to another two cities being incinerated by particularly efficient means as it was the declaration of war against Japan by Russia. Curtis LeMay was well on the way to achieving his goal of reducing the Japanese population "by half;" prior to the forays by the Enola Gay and Bock's Car, some 67 cities were bombed by conventional (incendiary plus antipersonnel) means, with damage ranging from 11.9% (Nishinomiya) to 99% (Toyama).

Considering the sanctimonious pontificating that came after two relatively minor, if photogenic, screw-ups on the part of the Luftwaffe - Guernica and Rotterdam - it is interesting to note that the complete silence regarding the intentional devastation of a city populated primarily by refugees (your widows and orphans again) - Dresden.

The fact that as many downed fliers made it to POW camps as they did is rather amazing when you consider how eager these fliers were to achieve "collateral damage." Hey, if you try to kill my wife and child, you can forget about mercy. Nothing personal.

If anything, the islamist assholes that are getting us to bark at the moon and chase our tails are masters of the game. Lenin noted that the purpose of terrorism is to terrorize (most people miss that one), and killing lots of people will not necessarily do that. Stalin pointed out that two dead is a tragedy, but a million dead is a statistic (he was evil, not stupid).

We bomb the snot out of people, and all it does is piss them off. The islamist assholes FAIL to set off potentially explosive sneakers and diapers and our society melts down. Talk about bang for the buck, those guys did not even get to hang out with all the other virgins.

In any event, those who pursued Emilio Douhet's theory of victory by air power did little more than achieve a supreme level of evil, whether wittingly or not, regardless of the side they supported.

As you may note, I am a lot more concerned for the rights of widows and orphans than I am the feelings of people who blow them to smithereens or incinerate them - but that's just me.


BSBD,

Winsor

[StreetScooby 5]

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bollocks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQkActP-isE

LOL....

As I just watched that video, my English wife came bopping into the office singing the words....

We are all engines of karma

[popsjumper 2]

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>-People who target civilian populations are terrorists.

Paul Tibbetts was a terrorist? Geez, and to think they gave him almost a dozen awards.

Ripped off. It could have been 72 virgins.
Ahhh....but he was American so it's OK.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Bolas 5]

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so it's perspective?

It's end result. If by not killing them they kill others then killing them saves others.

It's also cyclical. If they kill or threaten to kill others and we kill them, others in their group will then do the same or kill or threaten to kill us. Which makes us kill more of them.

At some point either someone runs out of people or both groups have to come to an agreement.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.