NO on Prop 8 (California)

[chadkal 0]

politics and religion have always been mixed in this country

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I am a greek midget

[Conundrum 1]

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I am married and have 4 kids

That answers whether you are married or not. Now, were you a virgin until you got married?

[chadkal 0]

That depends,.... I have been married before, 3 of my kids from a previous marriage. I would rather not discuss all of my personal life on here with folks I don't know.

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I am a greek midget

[Conundrum 1]

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That depends,.... I have been married before, 3 of my kids from a previous marriage. I would rather not discuss all of my personal life on here with folks I don't know.

It depends? You were either a virgin before you got married (the first time) or not. I'm not asking about your other marriage or any details - but that does bring up another thing.

Sex outside of marriage is immoral, but divorce isn't. interesting.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I am only telling you what I believe,... Like I said earlier,...I neither condone, or condemn the beliefs of others.

I am only posting my opinion

According to Webster, moral (as being used in this thread) is defined as "conforming to a standard of right behavior". By saying sex outside marriage is immoral, you are condemning those who practice such behavior.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 3]

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politics and religion have always been mixed in this country

This is not even remotely true. Before the 1950s you'd be hard pressed to find more than brief mentions of the concept of "God" in most government dealings. The word "God" does not appear anywhere within the entirety of the Constitution.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chadkal 0]

Try reading the declaration of idependece or maybe the pledge of allegiance how about the phrase In God we trust. did all of this happen after the 50's

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I am a greek midget

[kallend 1,635]

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sex outside of marriage is immoral. no matter how you look at it be it homosexual or heterosexual makes no difference.

Why? Because that's what you believe?

Morality IS personal. He has his morality, you have yours, I have mine.

It's trying to impose your morality on someone else that leads to problems.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,635]

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Try reading the declaration of idependece or maybe the pledge of allegiance how about the phrase In God we trust. did all of this happen after the 50's

God first entered the pledge of allegiance on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954.

"In God We Trust" became the national motto on July 30, 1956.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Conundrum 1]

You still don't want to answer my question huh?

I guess that's my answer then. Thanks!

[lewmonst 0]

(Not replying to anyone in particular... and forgive me as I have not kept up on reading all 15 pages of my thread i started)

This is a very interesting read though:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081114/cm_csm/yroosevelt;_ylt=AiY8H0LUcDPaqNjPAxvDghSs0NUE

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California's same-sex marriage case affects all of us

Philadelphia – What now for California? In May, its Supreme Court announced a right to same-sex marriage. Gays and lesbians rushed to take advantage of the opportunity; by early November, 18,000 such marriages had been performed. But on Nov. 5, they stopped. By a 52-47 percent margin, California voters approved Proposition 8, an amendment to the state constitution prohibiting same-sex marriage.

Immediately, gay rights supporters filed lawsuits asking to overturn the ruling. Critics are calling Proposition 8 an illegal constitutional "revision," fundamentally altering the guarantee of equality – not a more limited "amendment."

This suit raises a serious question: When should a majority have the power to take away a constitutional right granted by a court?

It's a question that forces us to think about why we have constitutional rights in the first place, and why they are enforced by judges. But it is not simply a theoretical puzzle. All of us enjoy constitutional rights, and most of us are at some point in a minority. All of us could be affected.

American constitutional practice has generally been to expand rights over time, both by amendment and by judicial decision. Amendments to the federal Constitution, for example, gave women and minorities the right to vote. Judicial decisions have expanded the constitutional guarantee of equality to protect more and more groups. Some of these decisions remain intensely controversial, but none have been overruled by a federal amendment.

Of course, amending the federal Constitution is difficult. It requires approval by "supermajorities": two-thirds in the House and the Senate and three-quarters of state legislatures. Federal rights cannot be taken away by a simple majority vote.

Because of this requirement, judicial decisions enforcing the federal Constitution's equality guarantee have followed a relatively consistent pattern. At one point in time, a particular practice – say, the racial segregation of public schools or the exclusion of women from the practice of law – is so widely accepted that it seems beyond challenge. Judges are not likely to strike the practice down, and if they did, the backlash might well be strong enough to create a constitutional amendment.

Some time later, the practice becomes controversial. It still enjoys majority support – otherwise it would likely be undone through ordinary lawmaking – but it no longer has the allegiance of a supermajority. It is at this time that judges tend to act in order to protect the freedoms of the minority, striking down the practice as unjustified discrimination. The decision may be intensely controversial. It may even be the target of majority disapproval. But because there is no longer a supermajority, the decision is safe.

As attitudes evolve, the practice comes to seem outrageous. Almost no one, nowadays, would argue for racial segregation of schools or a ban on female lawyers. At this point, the judicial decision is no longer controversial.

If a majority could overrule a judicial decision, the process would frequently be stopped by that majority vote. Judicial interventions against discrimination would just not succeed.

Regardless of where you stand on same-sex marriage, what's troubling for US citizens in the California case is the idea that an equality guarantee could not be effectively enforced against the will of a majority. The point of such a guarantee is precisely to protect minorities from discrimination at the hands of a majority.

It would be somewhat surprising, then, if California allowed judicial decisions enforcing the state equality guarantee to be overruled by a simple majority vote. In fact, as the gay-rights supporters' suit indicates, it is not clear that it does. Under the California constitution, "amendments" can be approved by a simple majority vote.

But "revisions," which make substantial changes, require approval by a supermajority – two-thirds of both houses of the legislature – before being submitted to voters. Supporters framed the same-sex marriage ban as an amendment, when really it has the makings of a revision.

It makes sense to require supermajority support to overrule a judicial decision that grants rights to a minority. It shows that the judges were so out of step with society that they were probably wrong. But a simple majority does not show that, and the constitution would not afford meaningful protection if it could be overruled at the will of the majority.

As the opposition to same-sex marriage in California has shrunk, simple majorities should not be able to reverse decisions made in the name of equality.

This is not an argument that the California court was correct. The battle for public opinion goes on. But letting the court's decision stand against the disapproval of a simple majority is not only sensible, it protects the minority rights of future generations.

Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.

• Kermit Roosevelt teaches law at the University of Pennsylvania's law school.

http://www.exitshot.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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Try reading the declaration of idependece or maybe the pledge of allegiance how about the phrase In God we trust. did all of this happen after the 50's

God first entered the pledge of allegiance on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954.

"In God We Trust" became the national motto on July 30, 1956.

He walked right into those, didn't he?

This was Cold War fun, against the godless Commies.

[chadkal 0]

what you fail to mention is that the line in God we trust came from the last line in the Star Spangled Banner.

And that the mention of God in the pledge comes from Lincolns Gettysburg address.

You still have not addressed the declaration.

Would you like for me to site more exampes of religion mixed in gov.

Fact is they have always been mixed.

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I am a greek midget

[LOSTandCRAZY 0]

Actually, "In God We Trust' was added to the "Pledge of Allegiance" in 1955. By a VERY CONSERVATIVE congress, at the time.

Much like the book-burning mobiles that Sarah Palin planned to have circling the country.

The original national motto: "E Pluribus Unum":

The original motto of the United States was secular. "E Pluribus Unum" is Latin for "One from many" or "One from many parts." It refers to the welding of a single federal state from a group of individual political units -- originally colonies and now states.

"On 1776-JUL-4, Congress appointed John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson to prepare a design for the Great Seal of the United States. The first design, submitted to Congress on 1776-AUG-10 used the motto "E Pluribus Unum." It was rejected. Five other designs also failed to meet with Congress' approval during the next five years. In 1782, Congress asked Mr. Thomson, Secretary of Congress, to complete the project. Thomson, along with a friend named Barton, produced a design that was accepted by Congress on 1782-JUN-10. It included an eagle with a heart-shaped shield, holding arrows and an olive branch in its claws. The motto "E Pluribus Unum" appeared on a scroll held in its beak. The seal was first used on 1782-SEP-16. It was first used on some federal coins in 1795."


"Most communists, worldwide, are Atheists. But, in North America, the reverse is not true; most Atheists are non-communists. Although there are many Atheistic and Humanistic legislators at the federal and state levels, few if any are willing to reveal their beliefs, because of the immense prejudice against Atheism. If they were open about their beliefs, none would ever be elected."

"During the 1950's the federal government's references to God multiplied:

The phrase "under God" was added to the otherwise secular Pledge of Allegiance.
"So help me God" was added as a suffix to the oaths of office for federal justices and judges. However, they are not compelled to recite the words. There has been a widespread belief that every president since George Washington has said these words during his inauguration. The belief appears to be without merit.
American paper currency since 1957 has included the motto "In God We Trust." 4 The Freedom from Religion Foundation has been unable to find any other country in the world which has a religious motto on their money"



So anyone who believes that this country was founded on any type of religious ideaology, simply needs to check their facts.

Don't ask your preacher, about FACTS. He will simply tell you that you are the devil for questioning him, and if you present him with a book, he will tell you that the devil wrote THAT too, because it's not the Bible.

Furthermore, it is impossible for Atheists to SERVE the devil, because they don't believe in him. That would also mean that Atheists would have to believe in God, which would make them not atheists, at all, but AGNOSTICS. (Unless, you are a COMPLETE wanker, and have no idea about anything.)

Hope this helps sort out the belief that America was founded as a "Christian" nation. It was intended to be free of it, that's why the founding fathers LEFT the other countries, they were abhorrently sick of the church getting all up in their grill.

So to speak.

Those, are the facts. Sorry I can't skew them, I'm no preacher.......

"Get these balls!"

[billvon 2,406]

>the line in God we trust came from the last line in the Star Spangled Banner.

Ah. You must mean the song written in 1814, decades after the US Constitution was written.

>And that the mention of God in the pledge comes from Lincolns
>Gettysburg address.

Actually, the "under God" was inserted later. His original words did not contain anything about God. (See the original below.)

An interesting guy, that Lincoln. Some other things he said:

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

"It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to Infidelity."

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession."

"The United States government must not undertake to run the Churches. When an individual, in the Church or out of it, becomes dangerous to the public interest he must be checked."

Did others see him as a Christian?

"In religion, Mr. Lincoln was about of the same opinion as Bob Ingersoll, and there is no account of his ever having changed. He went to church a few times with his family while he was President, but so far as I have been able to find out, he remained an unbeliever. Mr. Lincoln in his younger days wrote a book, in which he endeavored to prove the fallacy of the plan of salvation and the divinity of Christ."-- Judge James M Nelson

"While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice" - Franklin Steiner

So why did he sometimes refer to God?

"He was very cautious never to give expression to any thought or sentiment that would grate harshly upon a Christian's ear."
- Joshua Speed

>Would you like for me to site more exampes of religion mixed in gov.

No thanks. I could give you lots of examples of Christians murdering people, raping children, blowing things up etc. It wouldn't prove that they're right about it, or that Christians are all criminals.

[kelpdiver 2]

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what you fail to mention is that the line in God we trust came from the last line in the Star Spangled Banner.

Last line is O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave (Bears!).

As noted to you, this work came long after the Constitution and wasn't our national anthem until 1931.

The God we trust line angle is interesting though - I was unaware that there were 3 more stanzas in this poem, including the line you reference. I dare say that a majority of Americans would struggle just to get the first stanza, and far fewer know that there is any more to it, which makes this entire line of argument fairly weak in my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

I'm definitely one that would rather see America the Beautiful as the anthem.

[chadkal 0]

I am not trying to prove anything, just backing up my statement that religion and gov have always been mixed from the start of this country.

No matter if you like it or not doesn't change the facts.

Facts are:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.



You might recognize these words, I think this is what started our country.

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I am a greek midget

[billvon 2,406]

>just backing up my statement that religion and gov have always
>been mixed from the start of this country.

If you mean that the US government has religious people in it, and religions have government officials in them, then I agree 100%. The US is made up of all types - atheists, christians, muslims - and all of them bring their morality into their jobs as mayors, governors, senators, and presidents. Religious morality is as much a part of our government as the morality offered by Disney and Sesame Street.

If you mean that Christianity is part of the US government, or that the government does its job with respect to a religion, then that is not supported by any facts. The US Constitution, the Founding Fathers and subsequent law has made it clear that our government is secular and will always remain so. This should be no surprise - our country was born in a rebellion against a christian theocratic government.

[rushmc 18]

Have you seen, heard of or read this book?

The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States

Now back in print after 140 years


The following was taken from a blog

http://www.investorsiraq.com/showthread.php?t=104893

There are many disenting posts following the one I copied here...... That is why I supplied the link




Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.



It is the same congress that formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.



Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, 'Give me liberty or give me death.' But in current textbooks the context of these words is deleted. Here is what he said: 'An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death.'

These sentences have been erased from our textbooks.



Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this 'It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.'



Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: 'I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.'



Consider these words from George Washington, the Father of our Nation, in his farewell speech onSeptember 19, 1796:



'It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.'



Was George Washington a Christian? Consider these words from his personal prayer book: 'Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb and purge my heart by the Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thy son, Jesus Christ.'



Consider these words by John Adams, our second president, who also served as chairman of the American Bible Society.



In an address to military leaders he said, 'We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'

How about our first Court Justice, John Jay?



He stated that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. ' Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.'

John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams, was the sixth U.S. President.



He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, 'The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with theprinciples of Christianity.'



Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, 'The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.'



In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: 'The congress of the United States recommends and approves theHoly Bible for use in all schools.'



William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the 'Schoolmaster of the Nation.'



Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey: 'The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.'



Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first.



HarvardUniversity, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the scriptures:



'Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).'

For over 100 years, more than 50% of all Harvard graduates were pastors!



It is clear from history that the Bible and the Christian faith, were foundational in our educational and judicial system. However in 1947, there was a radical change of direction in the Supreme Court.



Here is the prayer that was banished:

'Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on Thee. We beg Thy blessings upon us and our parents and our teachers and our country.

Amen.'

In 1963, the Supreme Court ruled that Bible reading was outlawed as unconstitutional in the public school system. The court offered this justification: 'If portions of the New Testament were read without explanation, they could and have been psychologically harmful to children.'



Bible reading was now unconstitutional , though the Bible was quoted 94 percent of the time by those who wrote our constitution and shaped our Nation and its system of education and justice and government.



In 1965, the Courts denied as unconstitutional the rights of a student in the public school cafeteria to bow his head and pray audibly for his food.

In 1980, Stone vs. Graham outlawed the Ten Commandments in our public schools.



The Supreme Court said this: 'If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments were to have any effect at all, it would be to induce school children to read them. And if they read them, meditated upon them, and perhaps venerated and observed them, this is not a permissible objective.'

Is it not a permissible objective to allow our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments?



James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: 'We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.'

Today we are asking God to bless America. But how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him?



Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[chadkal 0]

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The US Constitution, the Founding Fathers and subsequent law has made it clear that our government is secular and will always remain so. This should be no surprise - our country was born in a rebellion against a christian theocratic government.

This is simply not true,.... read the above post, this country was not bornin a rebellion against a christian gov. It was born to have the freedom to have religion.

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I am a greek midget

[chadkal 0]

It's nice to see that someone else understands what started this country, what it is based on, and what has made it great.

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I am a greek midget

[bclark 0]

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I think that the LDS church is not even remotely "christian" in the commonly understood sense of the word. Are you familiar with their teachings?

Ok let me get this straight. The "Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints" is not a christian church? They recognize God the Father, Jesus, and the holy ghost (spirit) as deity. If they are not Christians, then please educate me as to what they are. They certainly are not satanists, buddhists, hindu, or muslims. And yes, I am familiar with their teachings as I grew up in Salt Lake City in a Mormon family. I am not an active member of the church, but my family are about as christian as they come. (and I was raised to be nothing other than a Christian.) If worshiping Jesus Christ is not the "commonly accepted" sense of the word Christian, than please tell me what is!?

And on Prop 8. No matter what I think or you think, the vote is in. Like it or not, it is what it is. Until the majority rule...

[guppie01 0]

Is it christian like to look upon those who do not belong to "the" church as less than... segregate them in schools, tell their children that they can't play with other kids because they are not good enough, not get hired for a job b/c they don't follow "the true" ways....

hmmmm

g

"Let's do something romantic this Saturday... how bout we bust out the restraints?"
Raddest Ho this side of Jersey #1 - MISS YOU
OMG, is she okay?

[chadkal 0]

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but definately not christian like

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I am a greek midget

[bclark 0]

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Is it christian like to look upon those who do not belong to "the" church as less than... segregate them in schools, tell their children that they can't play with other kids because they are not good enough, not get hired for a job b/c they don't follow "the true" ways....

Unfortunately, YES! Did I not say that I was a non practicing Mormon?

But it is not the LDS churchs fault that THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA VOTED AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE. If you want to get pissed and protest on someones doorstep, do it on the steps of California voters.