TomAiello 25 #376 November 18, 2008 If Mormons are Christians, then Christians are Jewish. They believe that there is a newer holy book that overrides the previous one (the Bible for Christians, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrines and Covenants for Mormons). They believe that there were additional divine events that are not recognized by the older religion (Jesus as son of god for Christians, Jesus coming to America and Joseph Smith as a divine prophet for Mormons). They add significantly divergent dogma to the older tradition (the whole body and blood thing for Christians, the whole celestial marriage thing for Mormons, just as two examples).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #377 November 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteIs it christian like to look upon those who do not belong to "the" church as less than... segregate them in schools, tell their children that they can't play with other kids because they are not good enough, not get hired for a job b/c they don't follow "the true" ways.... Unfortunately, YES! Did I not say that I was a non practicing Mormon? But it is not the LDS churchs fault that THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA VOTED AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE. If you want to get pissed and protest on someones doorstep, do it on the steps of California voters. The LDS is responsible for a considerable portion of the out of state money that came into the state for the Yes side, so you can't use that copout. And those dollars paid for the lies in their campaigning that pushed it over the 50% mark. Most of the protests are at Mormon churches in CA, so it's a two-fer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #378 November 18, 2008 QuoteThey believe that there is a newer holy book that overrides the previous one (the Bible for Christians, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrines and Covenants for Mormons). They believe that there were additional divine events that are not recognized by the older religion (Jesus as son of god for Christians, Jesus coming to America and Joseph Smith as a divine prophet for Mormons). Tom, it is obviously you who are not familiar with Mormon doctrine. They believe the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants to be SEPERATE doctrine from the Holy Bible. They also believe in the Holy Bible. They DO believe in additional divine events that are not recognized by the Bible. But they also believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God. The primary additional beliefs they have are that Jesus also visited the people of the Americas, and the Book of Mormon is intended to be documentation of those events. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #379 November 18, 2008 Quote The LDS is responsible for a considerable portion of the out of state money that came into the state for the Yes side, so you can't use that copout. And those dollars paid for the lies in their campaigning that pushed it over the 50% mark. I will not deny the LDS church involvement in this issue. But I also believe that you cannot grant them sole responsibility for a majority vote. I have many gay friends, and would not deny anyone the right to the pursuit of equality and the pursuit of happiness. But it pisses me off when people express ignorance about the religion of my father and my family. I feel that the LDS church has the right to oppose gay marriage, (as most christian religions do). I think unhappy people are looking for a scapegoat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 1 #380 November 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuotesex outside of marriage is immoral. no matter how you look at it be it homosexual or heterosexual makes no difference. Why? Because that's what you believe? Morality IS personal. He has his morality, you have yours, I have mine. It's trying to impose your morality on someone else that leads to problems. This is a misuse of the word "morality". Morality deals with true right and wrong and is pretty much universal. It's not a matter of personal opinion that killing innocent children or conning the elderly out of their life savings is wrong. The problem is that many religious types insist that sexual preference is a matter of morality. It is not and we should not buy into their view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #381 November 18, 2008 > this country was not bornin a rebellion against a christian gov. Ah. So we were rebelling against China? > It was born to have the freedom to have religion. Yes. The founders describe it as a "free market" of religion. The First Amendment states quite clearly that the government will not pass laws having to do with separation, and Jefferson made it clear as well: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #382 November 18, 2008 Quote If you want to get pissed and protest on someones doorstep, do it on the steps of California voters. Voters who were blatently lied to in the campaign the LDS funded...."Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #383 November 18, 2008 Tell it any way you want. You got outvoted. I got outvoted in the presidential election. I am not going to protest and persecute on the doorstep of the people who voted opposite me. You can't love the democratic process when it goes your way, then hate and blame when you lose. It is Ok to have differences of opinion. The right puts forth propoganda to discredit and disgrace the left. The left does the same to the right. In the end, we vote. Someone wins, someone loses. It all comes down to sportsmanship. If you lose, deal with it and practice hard to win next time. Don't bitch and cry about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #384 November 18, 2008 QuoteTell it any way you want. You got outvoted. I got outvoted in the presidential election. I am not going to protest and persecute on the doorstep of the people who voted opposite me. You can't love the democratic process when it goes your way, then hate and blame when you lose. The problem is that this is about civil rights for a minority group. The gay community has never gotten the process to go its way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #385 November 18, 2008 what right are you refering to? -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #386 November 18, 2008 Quote I will not deny the LDS church involvement in this issue. But I also believe that you cannot grant them sole responsibility for a majority vote. I have many gay friends, and would not deny anyone the right to the pursuit of equality and the pursuit of happiness. But it pisses me off when people express ignorance about the religion of my father and my family. I feel that the LDS church has the right to oppose gay marriage, (as most christian religions do). I think unhappy people are looking for a scapegoat. The word scapegoat is not appropriate to describe the most significant player in the Yes campaign. And 8 years ago, they were even more clearly *the* force behind the bay marriage ban. If they're upset now, wait till the attack on their tax exempt status comes. I doubt they'll lose it, but churches will need to step carefully - they have a first amendment right to get involved, but they don't have a guaranteed right to do it while remaining tax exempt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #387 November 18, 2008 QuoteThe gay community has never gotten the process to go its way. That is because they have been outvoted. Quotethey were even more clearly *the* force behind the bay marriage ban. Just for the record I am not against bay marriage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #388 November 18, 2008 Quote Quote The gay community has never gotten the process to go its way. That is because they have been outvoted. Quote they were even more clearly *the* force behind the bay marriage ban. Just for the record I am not against bay marriage. Bay weddings can be such beautiful events. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #389 November 18, 2008 Quote The right puts forth propoganda to discredit and disgrace the left. The left does the same to the right. You ok with this? You ok with the blatant lies that were spread be the LDS church? I'm not ok with it, so yeah, I'm bitching! Sportsmanship would include not cheating, don't you think?The law will be overturned, hopefully sooner rather than later, as all unjust civil rights laws have or will be. And, BTW, I didn't get outvoted. I don't live in California. "Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #390 November 18, 2008 QuoteYou ok with this? Yes. I am OK with this. Since the origination of the American nation marriage has been between a man and a woman. I like people who disagree. They are fun to debate. (I respect their opinions as my own.) Define cheating. Do you think that because Barack Obama put more money into his campaign he cheated? It is all about money and influence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #391 November 18, 2008 Quotewhat right are you refering to? the ones that were cited by the state supreme court in eliminating the ban in the spring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #392 November 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteYou ok with this? Yes. I am OK with this. Since the origination of the American nation marriage has been between a man and a woman. I like people who disagree. They are fun to debate. (I respect their opinions as my own.) Define cheating. Do you think that because Barack Obama put more money into his campaign he cheated? It is all about money and influence. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Obviously you're ok with prop8 passing, that's not what I was asking. My question was are you ok with voters being swayed with blantant lies? Yes, I would call it cheating. My comment had nothing to do with money, so your question about Obama makes no sense and doesn't apply."Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #393 November 18, 2008 I'm not from Ca. What lies were funded and told by churches? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #394 November 18, 2008 QuoteI'm not from Ca. What lies were funded and told by churches? QuoteThe Yes on 8 Campaign ran lying ads incessantly on the television with scary music and all the flair and bombast of a Nazi propaganda film. They portrayed same-sex marriage as a horror being forced on people, said that people would be sued over their personal beliefs and that churches would lose their tax exempt status and that first graders would be taught same-sex marriage in school against their parents’ wishes. From http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/11/17/18551843.php"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #395 November 18, 2008 There is no right to get married for anyone, it is a privilege just like driving. If you meet the requirements to drive, you get a license and you are granted permission to drive. Same with marriage,... If you meet the requirements to be married you can get a license and you are granted permission to marry. no difference, this is equal for everyone. -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #396 November 18, 2008 Do you think marriage should be defined as a relationship between one man and one woman? Or can it also be between one man and lots of women? Or can it be between one man, one woman, another man, and all of his other wives (and some of their husbands), too?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #397 November 18, 2008 Once again showing your ignorance. If you are a polygamist you will be excommunicated from the mormon church. Yes, Mormons used to practice polygamy in the early 1800's. But they also believe in upholding and supporting the laws of the land. And when polygamy was outlawed in our nation the church followed suit and banned it. QuoteDo you think marriage should be defined as a relationship between one man and one woman? Or can it also be between one man and lots of women? Or can it be between one man, one woman, another man, and all of his other wives (and some of their husbands), too? To answer your question directly, Marriage can be whatever the law defines it as. And that is determined by the standards upheld by the society that makes those laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #398 November 18, 2008 QuoteOnce again showing your ignorance. If you are a polygamist you will be excommunicated from the mormon church. Yes, Mormons used to practice polygamy in the early 1800's. But they also believe in upholding and supporting the laws of the land. And when polygamy was outlawed in our nation the church followed suit and banned it. I think you've grossly simplified the history and the current state of affairs, but the topic is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion, so let's let it be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #399 November 18, 2008 QuoteThere is no right to get married for anyone, it is a privilege just like driving. If you meet the requirements to drive, you get a license and you are granted permission to drive. Same with marriage,... If you meet the requirements to be married you can get a license and you are granted permission to marry. no difference, this is equal for everyone. Your theory is proven false by the Loving vs Virginia decision. "Marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man, fundamental to our very existence and survival." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #400 November 18, 2008 QuoteYes, Mormons used to practice polygamy in the early 1800's. Heber J. Grant, President of the Mormon Church until 1945, practiced polygamy. How is that the "early 1800's" ? The point I'm trying to make here is not that polygamy is bad--I honestly don't care about that. The point I'm trying to make is that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. The LDS church castigating others about marriage is clear hypocrisy.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
